Showing it to the world

[Flying Crane]

The following exerpts are from the thread asking if it is possible to fight with Taiji Chuan.

Apparently, Chan Yik Yan was asked this question about LHBF when he was practicing in the park. His answer, I think, also applies to Taiji:

"You can't fight with it"

(Hint: there's a subtlety to that answer)

And Tung Ying Chieh said it was for health

Clearly, the responses indicate a desire to mislead those who asked the questions. I guess those individuals didn't want to give away their secrets, and were content to let the askers believe their art had no martial viability.

This leads to something I've thought about for a while: when did this attitude change? Once upon a time, I think one's martial methods were a closely held secret, not given away to any but the most trusted family and friends. There was a sense that if the wrong person knew how much you do or do not know, that would give him an advantage and he may try to attack you.

Nowadays we all clamor to defend the martial viability of our art. If anyone suggests that our art might have some shortcomings, we immediately stand up and defy the very notion. We need to inform the world that our art is strong and with it we are well protected. And as if simply denying the accusation isn't enough, we often lay it out step-by-step why they are wrong. We tell them in detail what our art has, and how it might deal with every conceivable ruffian.

And not only this, but everyone has a need to post their goods on places like Youtube, for the world to view, criticise, even try to learn from. Seems like nobody is holding back any secrets anymore.

Is this a good thing? We live in a fairly open society, information is readily shared about everything, and generally we don't need to rely on our martial training to save our lives on any regular basis.

Yet I can't help feeling that something is funny about this desire to bare our complete art for the world to see. It's just odd, and I don't understand the compulsion.

The longer I train, the less willing am I to show it to anyone outside of my training group. I dunno, I guess it's just a personal thing. I train hard and have worked for years to learn what I have, and to be as good as I can with it. Somehow I don't feel like just giving it away for the world to gawk at. If someone thinks my art is somehow deficient, maybe it's best to let him think that. Why argue with him? Why try to prove him wrong? If I ever need to fight him, I've got the advantage because I let him underestimate me.

The next time someone tells you, "your (gung-fu/tae kwon do/karate/jujitsu) is no good", maybe the best answer is simply "ah, you are so correct, clearly what you have is much better". And just leave it at that...

 

[BrandonLucas]

The following exerpts are from the thread asking if it is possible to fight with Taiji Chuan.





Clearly, the responses indicate a desire to mislead those who asked the questions. I guess those individuals didn't want to give away their secrets, and were content to let the askers believe their art had no martial viability.

This leads to something I've thought about for a while: when did this attitude change? Once upon a time, I think one's martial methods were a closely held secret, not given away to any but the most trusted family and friends. There was a sense that if the wrong person knew how much you do or do not know, that would give him an advantage and he may try to attack you.

Nowadays we all clamor to defend the martial viability of our art. If anyone suggests that our art might have some shortcomings, we immediately stand up and defy the very notion. We need to inform the world that our art is strong and with it we are well protected. And as if simply denying the accusation isn't enough, we often lay it out step-by-step why they are wrong. We tell them in detail what our art has, and how it might deal with every conceivable ruffian.

And not only this, but everyone has a need to post their goods on places like Youtube, for the world to view, criticise, even try to learn from. Seems like nobody is holding back any secrets anymore.

Is this a good thing? We live in a fairly open society, information is readily shared about everything, and generally we don't need to rely on our martial training to save our lives on any regular basis.

Yet I can't help feeling that something is funny about this desire to bare our complete art for the world to see. It's just odd, and I don't understand the compulsion.

The longer I train, the less willing am I to show it to anyone outside of my training group. I dunno, I guess it's just a personal thing. I train hard and have worked for years to learn what I have, and to be as good as I can with it. Somehow I don't feel like just giving it away for the world to gawk at. If someone thinks my art is somehow deficient, maybe it's best to let him think that. Why argue with him? Why try to prove him wrong? If I ever need to fight him, I've got the advantage because I let him underestimate me.

The next time someone tells you, "your (gung-fu/tae kwon do/karate/jujitsu) is no good", maybe the best answer is simply "ah, you are so correct, clearly what you have is much better". And just leave it at that...

I agree with you...and I'm very guilty of doing the very thing that you're posting about.

I think it comes from a certain pride that we all have for the art that we practice and love.

For me, it became a huge part of who I am, and insulting my art is much the same as insulting a member of my family. But, I think you're correct in how we should react.

If someone says "TKD is worthless for SD...your art is full of McDojo's"...instead of responding with defenses of how my art is highly effective and was used in the Korean military and blah blah blah, maybe I should respond with:

"I love TKD. It's my core art, and it servers its purpose for what I want to do. It's not for everyone, and I can understand why some people would have the opinion that you have. However, I'm not here to try to change your mind about my art. If you don't like it, you're entitled to your opinion, and I should respect that."

If the time ever comes that I should ever have to defend myself or my loved ones, I hope to do honor to the art. Other than that, it would probably be to my advantage to let people think that I train in a worthless art.

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree with you...and I'm very guilty of doing the very thing that you're posting about.

I think it comes from a certain pride that we all have for the art that we practice and love.

For me, it became a huge part of who I am, and insulting my art is much the same as insulting a member of my family. But, I think you're correct in how we should react.

Yup, I've done it too, it's very easy to fall into this response. Then I step back and start asking myself: why did I make the effort? I still didn't convince him, he already made up his mind about it and anything I say isn't going to change his mind, so just let him believe what he wants. I don't need to evangelize him to my art or anything.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Or the Chinese equivalents huā quán xìu tǔi" and "xìu huā zhǒu tóu"

Interesting post you have here crane.

Before coming to MT I told no one about my MA outside of MA nor did I ever feel the need to defend it. I still am much the same off of MT today; however I have been guilty of what you are talking about on MT more than once. I have recently noticed I am doing less of that these days. I did however recently shock myself by posting applications in an explanation which has made me re-evaluate what I am doing.

But there is another side of this as well. On any web page you have anonymity and some do use that to attack and many when attacked, particularly MAists tend to respond. Sometimes regretfully but you still might fight back eventually you learn not to but early on things can sometimes be different. What is amazing to me is that some of these attacks come from those that off the site would never dream of such a thing but web anonymity is a powerful thing.

But back to your post; my Yang Sifu tells no one outside of family and students he knows any taiji and no a days he does not tell the majority of his students it is anything but for health but then his Sifu was the one in the quote you have from me. My Sanda Sifu tells no one other than his family and those he decides he will teach if they want to learn.

You also have to take into account Chinese culture as it applies to Martial arts. Telling someone you were a martial artist could lead to a challenge or twelve. And if you go back further in Chinese history a person that used MA say in a rebellion that failed would be put to death… as would his Sifu and possibly his Sifu’s family. So secret was a way to survive.

But back to Tung Ying Chieh’s statement; it is not really hiding anything is it. Train taiji and you can get healthy, use if to defend yourself and you can stay healthy. It is just for health, it is all in how you interpret it.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Flying Crane there are some secrets still out there.

IMO I find the greatest secrecy is hidden in plain sight.

On a Martial art forum it is easy to compare and contrast things.

You are right though alot of things that were once secret are more out in the open. I think one of the reasons is though it is available not many people can understand it or even attempt it correctly.

One of my teachers has tattooed on his arm "vow of silence" if asked anything concerning the things he knows he would simply point to his tattoo.

Some things that were secret and only given orally are now available because of fear that it will be lost.

In more corrupt situations secrets are sold for profit.

I think what is shown in the martial side is only the superfical and without Heart to Heart transmission which is the real secret I think what is said or shown does not give the whole meaning.

I personally enjoy people saying my art sucks I enjoy critique of my art and expanding my horizions.

 

[Ironcrane]

I'm going to try, and organize my incoherent thoughts regarding this. In the example you posted, I think questions like those are usually traps, and the answer he gave was just to avoid falling for it.
As for sharing with the world, I think it could just be a person with a general love of what they're doing, and thus, wants to share with other people. Or it could just be marketing.
I have heard of Martial Arts that are "secert", or not taught to outsiders. At first I was kinda annoyed by it, but over time it didn't bother me so much, becoming more skeptical of these "secerts". I mean, how many different ways are there really, to throw a side kick? How many ways are there to really do a wrist lock? Am I making any sence?
Also with the way Martial Arts can be marketed, and commercialized, I'd be skeptical (But not closed minded) about someone claiming "secerts" in what they're doing, as it could likely not be much of a secert after all.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'll throw in a little clarification here. I'm not really focused on the "secrets" of the martial arts. I'm not saying it's all secret and should be shrouded in mystery. I'm not saying that there ought to be an image of "deadly secrets" promoted to the public, or that's how the martial arts ought to be sold. I'm not trying to find the last "secrets" that might be out there to make me the deadliest ninger in the neighborhood.

In my view, it seems that the martial arts ought to be something that you just hold a bit closer to home, that's all. Just my opinion, clearly a lot of people don't agree with me. But I'm just wondering why everyone is so eager to show it all to the whole public.

Example: I am aware of a series on Youtube where a teacher of a particular art posts clips that systematically try to teach the entire curriculum of his art. Why would someone want to post that on Youtube?

I've seen websites where the complete curriculum of the art is written out, step-by-step, for anyone to read and experiment with.

Teaching your own students is one thing. Teaching your students openly and not withholding any secrets is good. But why throw it out there for the whole world to see? that's the part I just don't understand.

And I guess this sort of goes along with the idea that maybe we don't need to bother with defending our art against those who don't understand it and want to judge it poorly. Why would I lay out my material, my complete curriculum and body of techniques and methods and strategies to some detractor, and seek his approval? I don't care what he thinks, I don't need to justify what I do to him, and I am happy to let him underestimate me.

 

[geezer]

...Seems like nobody is holding back any secrets anymore.
Is this a good thing? We live in a fairly open society, information is readily shared about everything, and generally we don't need to rely on our martial training to save our lives on any regular basis.

Yet I can't help feeling that something is funny about this desire to bare our complete art for the world to see...

Aside from those Sifu's that are giving a sales pitch to make a buck off their arts, I think most of us brag and show-off what we know out of pride and enthusiasm. It's not really a bad thing, just pointless. If folks aren't inclined to respect what you have, showing-off won't convince them. I guess beating them in a challenge fight might ...if they are just interested in fighting. Otherwise, it accomplishes nothing.

Still, I don't worry about revealing the secrets of my art. The stuff that matters isn't really a "secret" anyway. I'm referring to the refined skills that take many years of dedicated training and practice. Watching a skilled practitioner on youtube isn't going to give away anything important. So I wouldn't sweat it.

In fact, excessive secrecy in the martial arts has, as Robert W. Smith wrote, allowed many excellent systems to die out. And, as we have all seen, it has also allowed charlatans to promote themselves as "grandmasters" of "secret" systems. These unscrupulous individuals exploit the tradition of secrecy, and they promote the fallacious idea that martial skills come through learning some "secret", magical technique, rather than through the hard work and great skill the Chinese call "Kung fu".

 

[Steve]

The following exerpts are from the thread asking if it is possible to fight with Taiji Chuan.





Clearly, the responses indicate a desire to mislead those who asked the questions. I guess those individuals didn't want to give away their secrets, and were content to let the askers believe their art had no martial viability.

This leads to something I've thought about for a while: when did this attitude change? Once upon a time, I think one's martial methods were a closely held secret, not given away to any but the most trusted family and friends. There was a sense that if the wrong person knew how much you do or do not know, that would give him an advantage and he may try to attack you.

Nowadays we all clamor to defend the martial viability of our art. If anyone suggests that our art might have some shortcomings, we immediately stand up and defy the very notion. We need to inform the world that our art is strong and with it we are well protected. And as if simply denying the accusation isn't enough, we often lay it out step-by-step why they are wrong. We tell them in detail what our art has, and how it might deal with every conceivable ruffian.

And not only this, but everyone has a need to post their goods on places like Youtube, for the world to view, criticise, even try to learn from. Seems like nobody is holding back any secrets anymore.

Is this a good thing? We live in a fairly open society, information is readily shared about everything, and generally we don't need to rely on our martial training to save our lives on any regular basis.

Yet I can't help feeling that something is funny about this desire to bare our complete art for the world to see. It's just odd, and I don't understand the compulsion.

The longer I train, the less willing am I to show it to anyone outside of my training group. I dunno, I guess it's just a personal thing. I train hard and have worked for years to learn what I have, and to be as good as I can with it. Somehow I don't feel like just giving it away for the world to gawk at. If someone thinks my art is somehow deficient, maybe it's best to let him think that. Why argue with him? Why try to prove him wrong? If I ever need to fight him, I've got the advantage because I let him underestimate me.

The next time someone tells you, "your (gung-fu/tae kwon do/karate/jujitsu) is no good", maybe the best answer is simply "ah, you are so correct, clearly what you have is much better". And just leave it at that...

As you say yourself, it's as often to hide a lack of martial ability as it is to hide actual martial ability and says nothing at all about the art. Particularly on a martial arts forum, why would we want to hide from others (and perhaps from ourselves) what we truly can and cannot do? How would that serve to further the dialogue?

 

[Steve]

Teaching your own students is one thing. Teaching your students openly and not withholding any secrets is good. But why throw it out there for the whole world to see? that's the part I just don't understand.

The same could be said about EULA's and open source software design. There are a lot of guys at microsoft who just don't get why people would develop useful, marketable software and then effectively give it away.

Who's to say which side is right or wrong?

 

[hkfuie]

The following exerpts are from the thread asking if it is possible to fight with Taiji Chuan.

Yet I can't help feeling that something is funny about this desire to bare our complete art for the world to see. It's just odd, and I don't understand the compulsion.

The longer I train, the less willing am I to show it to anyone outside of my training group. I dunno, I guess it's just a personal thing. I train hard and have worked for years to learn what I have, and to be as good as I can with it. Somehow I don't feel like just giving it away for the world to gawk at. If someone thinks my art is somehow deficient, maybe it's best to let him think that. Why argue with him? Why try to prove him wrong? If I ever need to fight him, I've got the advantage because I let him underestimate me.

The next time someone tells you, "your (gung-fu/tae kwon do/karate/jujitsu) is no good", maybe the best answer is simply "ah, you are so correct, clearly what you have is much better". And just leave it at that...

Great post, Flying Crane. I love it! I will practice the phrase..."Ah, you are so correct, clearly what you have is much better!" Feels GREAT!

 

[Flying Crane]

Great post, Flying Crane. I love it! I will practice the phrase..."Ah, you are so correct, clearly what you have is much better!" Feels GREAT!

Sometimes I have to remind myself.

 

[Tez3]

The Kung Fu panda Po knows the secret of martial arts.....