Should we stay or should we go?

[IcemanSK]

In the difficulties of organizations (eg. 3 ITF's, or the direction of the WTF, etc.) the question of "should I stay with my current organization?" "should I switch to "X" organization?" or "should I create my own organization?" are issues that school owners need to think about from time to time.

Some of the issues that I see (but are limited to) are: 1) Can I do what I want in my current organization? 2) Is what the next organization has better than what I have? 3) What would the price be for going out on my own? 4) Can I affect the leadership of my organization for the positive change that I want to see?

Can we stay in our organizations & still be who we want to be? Can we affect the change that we want to see? What is the "ideal" organization for you?

 

[Laurentkd]

I know this is sort of playing both sides, but my current thought it this:
We (my dojang) do Tae Guek (along with other) forms and we certify all of our black belts through kukkiwon. I think this gives us some credence with those outside the martial arts (and even inside) as any research will show you that if someone has a kukkiwon certificate they are (or at least supposed to be) a "real deal". Someone higher ranking than they had to put their applications in and you can at least assume this kukkiwon certificate is a step ahead of "master bob's" certificate. Of course we can argue that Master Bob's certificate is actually worth much more as the holder's master actually watched their progress and knows what the student's abilities are better than anyone else, to an outsider looking in, a kukkiwon certificate carries more weight, and so we will continue to make sure our black belts receive them. Training in Tae Gueks and giving out Kukkiwon certificates also makes it easier for our students to transfer to other schools if the need arises and make competing easier as well.
However, my dojang also teaches MUCH more than is required by Kukkiwon and we continue to promote self-defense (and really well roundedness in all aspects of training) over strictly sparring competition. In this way we don't align ourselves completely with the WTF/Kukkiwon intentions.
So basically we get the certification of Kukkiwon but train in a way that does not limit ourselves.
Joining this or that organization doesn't appeal much to me. THere are so many that no one even knows what all is out there any more. If in the future the pendulum swings and an organization rises up that I believe will stick around and is aligned to my beliefs I may join. But, I don't want to spend my time focusing on the politics of creating such an organization. I would rather spend my time training and teaching so it won't be me working to make an organization happen. I guess that is why we have the people we have in the TKD political arena.

 

[troubleenuf]

I left my instructor years ago. It became a matter of he became more interested in the $$$ than what was going on within the organization and the quality that was being put out. Best thing I ever did! I have learned more in the past 11 years than I did in the 18 that I was with him. I too give out Kukkiwon certificates to those who want them. Last year I began to issue our own association certificates for those who didnt want the kukkiwon. Last test 90% went with association certificates. Kukkiwon certificates have lost their luster I am sorry to say. Years ago they used to mean something. But now if you have the money you can obtain pretty much any rank you want if you know who to go to.

 

[wade]

Laurentkd, I can't rep you but I can say that was a well written post. Clean, clear and to the point. I agree with it completely.

 

[exile]

In general, I don't much like the way large-scale organizations operate. I'd much rather see a radical decentralization of TKD so that it becomes more like karate: the school is the locus of curriculum and technique; the good name and integrity of the owner/instructional staff are the key assets; quality is judged by results. KKW certification is neither necessary nor sufficient as an assurance of quality in a TKD school, we know this—we've all probably seen examples in both directions, eh? So what's the advantage?

Lauren's post makes some good points about the portability of both credentials and credibility that comes from KKW certification. But is all that based on a solid foundation? There are, in all likelihood, McDojangs aplenty whose chief instructors/owners conscientiously maintain their black belt's record with the KKW; the fact that people tend to believe that KKW certification is a guarantor of quality is touching, but the truth is—as Lauren also notes—the real indicator of quality is the quality of the school, KKW affiliation or no. Yet it's natural to want a reliable standard. What to do?

It's useful to take a look at how other activities have solved the problem. What happened in skiing is that the ski hills, which operate their own ski schools, in effect got together and created the PSIA—Professional Ski Instructors of America—an independent organization which rigorously tests and certifies ski instructors for certification at several different levels of expertise. The PSIA continuously develops and test teaching methodology, and no ski school which wants to be taken seriously can afford to ignore PSIA certification for its instructors. I'm told that scuba diving instructors have a similar kind of organization.

I'm not sure this kind of thing would work in MAs, however. While such an organization would have the virtue of being completely independent of the national athletic/political/cultural aspirations of particular nation-states (unlike the KKW, IMO), the problem is that unlike skiing, there is no consensus in the MAs on just what the optimal syllabus should be. It's the fact of this consensus in skiing that makes the PSIA so effective. But the fractionation of the MA world into a welter of styles and differing views of optimum training methods means that the MAs haven't gotten to that point yet, and may never.

My instinct is to stay away from organizations and develop your syllabus on the basis of hard experimentation, trial and error and continuous testing of your methods. This is the kind of thing that I think Brian's van Cise's organization, Instinctive Response Training, does, and I see IRT as kind of being the model for the American MA scene. Ideally, what I'd like to see is something like the British Combat Association here, but... well, I can dream, can't I?

 

[ArmorOfGod]

3. What would the price be for going out on my own?

I don't want to narrow the topic, but I got stuck on #3.
My question is, why even bother being part of one of those tkd associations? What are the benefits, and are they detrimental to the training? What would the big picture be if a tkd school just dropped from those orgs and went independent?

AoG

 

[newGuy12]

Laurentkd, I can't rep you but I can say that was a well written post. Clean, clear and to the point. I agree with it completely.

Awesome. I also agree, completely. And this is exactly how our school is, too. We used to be in the WTF, but not now, but, if a black belt student wishes to be certified with the kukkiwon, arrangements can be made to do so.

Ideally, what I'd like to see is something like the British Combat Association here, but... well, I can dream, can't I?

This very well may come to pass. And you may find yourself fairly close to the "point of the spear" when it does! Stranger things have happened, after all! You already have a "head start". I have never been exposed to this until I read your posts on this board.

 

[exile]

This very well may come to pass. And you may find yourself fairly close to the "point of the spear" when it does! Stranger things have happened, after all! You already have a "head start". I have never been exposed to this until I read your posts on this board.

I appreciate the kind thought immensely, Robert, don't think I don't. But people approaching their 61st spring are generally pretty far back from the point of the spear.

I'm not complaining—I mean, it beats the alternative, eh?—but I think it's gonna have to be you guys who do it, if it's going to be done. And I think it can and will be done. The crucial point is for people to recognize that these mega-organizations with nationalistic agenda aren't part of the inevitable course of nature, like the sun rising in the east. They came into being for specific reasons which may not serve the interests of many current practitioners. When the divergence becomes marked enough... there will be a parting of the ways. Affiliation and separation are both part of the nature of life in society, and when things get to a certain point, people leave and re-create institutions that will serve them better. It's just a matter of time.

 

[Doc_Jude]

My Silat teacher's wife has been doing TKD for decades, and changing organizations has cost her some ranks. Her longtime instructor changed orgs all the time, whenever he thought he'd make some more money for whatever reason. Eventually, she left him. It was funny, she told me that she'd been with him longer than his three ex-wives. "Why shouldn't I get some of that alimony? I deserve it just as much if not more, you know?"

Sometimes, for better or for worse, it's time to move on.

 

[exile]

My Silat teacher's wife has been doing TKD for decades, and changing organizations has cost her some ranks. Her longtime instructor changed orgs all the time, whenever he thought he'd make some more money for whatever reason. Eventually, she left him. It was funny, she told me that she'd been with him longer than his three ex-wives. "Why shouldn't I get some of that alimony? I deserve it just as much if not more, you know?"

Sometimes, for better or for worse, it's time to move on.

I love it! :lol:

 

[IcemanSK]

I don't want to narrow the topic, but I got stuck on #3.
My question is, why even bother being part of one of those tkd associations? What are the benefits, and are they detrimental to the training? What would the big picture be if a tkd school just dropped from those orgs and went independent?

AoG

The question of "why bother" has come up for me a lot. For me, & a lot of folks, it comes down to a personal decision more than a business decision (although aspects apply). I started out with a WTF 1st Dan (it was in the period in the 80's when it was the WTF that gave rank) from an instructor I loved. Then when I had to change schools, the 2nd Dan ITF cert. turned out to be bogus. There was no connection to the organization, it was just a cert from a guy who lied to us & beat his wife. Now, my KKW 2nd Dan is not only legit, but also gives me a sense of lineage (since I can trace my lineage directly to KKW President GM Uhm, Woon Kyu). So, when I offer my students a KKW cert. I can give them very personal reasons for it's importance. Including portability of the rank should they move away. For me, I'd feel disconnected without it.

I have a friend that trained with me at the ITF style school, who now has his own school. He is aligned with an organization that prides itself on it's independance, yet advertises availablity of a KKW cert. as well. For him, belonging to this group is also important. It seems a common thing for a lot of folks to want some sort of recognition of their achievements. Even in going "independent" we often want to band in a group to do so.

It helps me that my GM is old school TKD & not a big fan of Olympic style TKD. He is both KKW & very Chung Do Kwan as he says, "bone-breaking power." I have freedom to be all old school or add XMA or Olympic style if I choose. For other orgs, that may not be the case.

While I can't address the "big picture" of an indepedent school. This is why I chose & see the importance in my choice. As I said,they are personal reasons.

 

[azmyth]

I don't think belonging to an organization of any type really matters to the average folk who might come to your dojang. I know it sounds silly but its at least true down in this area. My school was for years, not affiliated with anyone. He was solely independent. The only people he affiliated with were other schools for tournaments. Just in the past few years did he join NAPMA.. which I don't think does that much for him. I think the only orgs that matter are the smaller regional ones, that hold tournaments, and other sorts of "meet ups" to bring martial artists together to communicate and be intertwined. Unless I am already experience in MA and have a history degree in TKD.. I'm not gonna care what BIG TKD org your apart of as long as you can teach me sufficiently. Why do you think the ATA is so big? because they are a huge organization? Probably not.. its more because they offer all kinds of fluff.. the average person is gonna be like "ooooooh... I want to do that". Real schools, don't need a BIG org or fluff to bring in members.. the skill/instruction speaks for itself.

 

[exile]

Real schools, don't need a BIG org or fluff to bring in members.. the skill/instruction speaks for itself.

I agree, that's true so far as the average MA trainee is concerned. And I think it's true at a more basic level as well. But the kind of point that Lauren was making, about rank portability and verification, is going to haunt you as you get closer and closer to that shodan test, if you're like a lot of folks out there. KKW cert does give certain bragging rights to both the new BB and the owner/instructor, even though it might not have much emotional impact on white belts in their first month of training.

The real problem with being affiliated with a major org, as an owner/chief instructor, is that it's all too easy to wind up taking over their view of the nature of the art and structuring your curriculum accordingly. For a lot of schools, that's probably part of what they regard as a sound business model. I think that, in the case of the Korean TKD directorate, this literal-minded affiliation strategy winds up channelling people in the direction of competition rather than combat-readiness for real-life threat situations. It's not so much that being with the KKW forces you to go a certain way, but rather that going that way becomes the course of least resistance. You start buying into a view of the MA culture that comes from what is, after all, the technical/pedagogical branch of the South Korean TKD establishment, dedicated first and foremost to Olympic glory.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

One of my instructors has spent his whole martial career trying to be legit in the eyes of the major organizations. WTF, ITF, Kukkiwon, etc. If he thought being affiliated with an organization would enhance his organizations reputation then he joined and stayed with them. This however came with many cost's both financially and politically over time and in the end it did affect his standing with one of the major organizations and all this happened because of someone elses jealousy. However in time they came back begging after the other person was ousted. (in other words they missed the money) If you are part of an organization and wish to continue think carefully about what you and your Dojang and students gain by being affiliated. If it is substantial then it will be worth it to you. If it is not then you should probably move on. Just my 02.

 

[Laurentkd]

I agree, that's true so far as the average MA trainee is concerned. And I think it's true at a more basic level as well. But the kind of point that Lauren was making, about rank portability and verification, is going to haunt you as you get closer and closer to that shodan test, if you're like a lot of folks out there. KKW cert does give certain bragging rights to both the new BB and the owner/instructor, even though it might not have much emotional impact on white belts in their first month of training.

That it the big part for me. I think we owe our students as much credibility for their rank as possible. And, while we all see so many problems with big orgnizations, in my opinion a Kukkiwon certificate is the best option that we have (right now at least).
For example, I tested for 1st degree and 2nd degree and paid for my Kukkiwon certificates but never received them. My instructor got married and moved to the bahamas and everyone was left without certificates. Luckily for me my parents knew how important martial arts was to me (I was 12 at the time) and they sought out another master who was at my 2nd degree test (which at that point had been at least a year prior). My folks scraped up the money they didn't have at the time and GM Kim Hyung Jin vouched for me and got my certificate for me (that is another interesting story: somehow he managed for me to "skip" 1st degree and receive a 2nd Dan certificate. Also felt he should award me with a Dan certificate even though I was only 12. Kind of a cool story, but also shows that Kukkiwon certificates aren't too hard to come by if you know the right people).
When I started training again with the brother of a former sparring partner he was shocked that I had a Kukkiwon card. I was the first of all the abandoned students to actually have one and it automatically gave me a step ahead of the others. This instructor (who I consider my only sahbonim) treated everyone that transfered into his school great, allowed them to wear the black belts and got them kukkiwon certificates as soon as possible, but I still felt it made me stand out from the others initially because I HAD the certification (and it was obvious that TKD was the priority for my parents and me). And, had the others not been so lucky to find such a great new instructor (he knew the sitution of our previous instructor) they may have had to start over again at white belt, or at least at a lower rank so that the new instructor could get more testing fees out of them. They really had no credibility at all as black belts.

Long story short (too late right!) having some sort of certificate from a "crediable" association can only help your students. I feel that we as instructors are obligated to do as much as we can for our students and to me making sure they get a Kukkiwon certificate falls under that obligation. Again, if some other organization rises from the ashes and becomes as well known as the Kukkiwon I could easily jump ship, but for now my money will continue to go to the Kukkiwon.

 

[Kacey]

In the difficulties of organizations (eg. 3 ITF's, or the direction of the WTF, etc.) the question of "should I stay with my current organization?" "should I switch to "X" organization?" or "should I create my own organization?" are issues that school owners need to think about from time to time.

This is a valid concern. Switching organizations is hard for a wide variety of reasons, especially for an instructor who wants to maintain the integrity of what he's teaching. A friend of mine - another student of my sahbum - joined us after being with another organization for 10 or 12 years (neither ITF nor WTF - a child-oriented sporting association) and is going through growing pains as he shifts his students over to a new (and more difficult) set of requirements. Most of his students are happy - some are pissed, because it's much harder to slide now.

Some of the issues that I see (but are limited to) are: 1) Can I do what I want in my current organization?

Yes, I can.

2) Is what the next organization has better than what I have?

Haven't seen one yet that was.

3) What would the price be for going out on my own?

Dunno... only thought about it once, when I followed my sahbum into the YCTA at it's inception, a decision I made in the best interest of my students (the only consideration that should be important to an instructor - or at least to a good instructor, one who puts his/her students' needs above his/her own).

4) Can I affect the leadership of my organization for the positive change that I want to see?

Yes. Of course, being on our association's board of directors, that's easy for me to see - but I just sent out an email reminder of upcoming events to my students, and one upcoming event is our state meeting, where any student who chooses to come can give input into what the state is going to do - what events will be held and where (and who will run them), how money will be spent, how we can raise money to send students to events out of state, and so on - and also give input into what they'd like to see the association as a whole do in the future.

Can we stay in our organizations & still be who we want to be? Can we affect the change that we want to see? What is the "ideal" organization for you?

As should be obvious from the above, I'm pretty happy where I am, and can't imagine going anywhere else at this point, at least not in TKD... cross-training (something I'd like to do in the future) is a different issue.

I agree, that's true so far as the average MA trainee is concerned. And I think it's true at a more basic level as well. But the kind of point that Lauren was making, about rank portability and verification, is going to haunt you as you get closer and closer to that shodan test, if you're like a lot of folks out there.

I have to say that this issue never bothered me - although I reached I Dan (and for that matter, II Dan) in the USTF/ITF, where we were told, repeatedly and in detail, that there would be a class we could transfer into wherever we went, and our rank would go with us. In retrospect, that may not have been as true as it was made out to be - but rank portability wasn't something that concerned me as a color belt.

KKW cert does give certain bragging rights to both the new BB and the owner/instructor,

At this point in time, it's still something that doesn't concern me. In contrast to those who discuss the portability of KKW certification, I just don't care. My rank is certified by people I know, whose opinions I value and trust - if others don't accept that rank, it really doesn't bother me. I've never thought about my rank as something that gave me "bragging rights" - rather, it's something that gives me the opportunity to learn even more.

even though it might not have much emotional impact on white belts in their first month of training.

I have yet to meet a white belt - with the exception of a few who had prior experiences in other arts - who cared where my certification was from. They care that I've been in TKD for 21 years, that I've been teaching in the same YMCA for nearly 9 years, that when they talk to my students, my students tell them why they stay in my class - I have yet to have a student of any rank ask who my certificate is from, or when, or what association, or anything like that; the closest I've had is a student who moved here from England, who wanted a school that did Ch'ang H'on forms, because that's what he had learned, but he didn't care which association I was in.

The real problem with being affiliated with a major org, as an owner/chief instructor, is that it's all too easy to wind up taking over their view of the nature of the art and structuring your curriculum accordingly.

This could be bad... could be good. I like the curriculum we use - or I'd change it. I add things to it as I find it to be appropriate - we have minimum requirements, but I don't know an instructor in the association who doesn't personalize by adding other things. Using a good curriculum as a base helps keep you from unintentionally omitting useful pieces. Why rewrite it if it works?

If the curriculum locks you into something, and precludes independent thought - that's a different issue, and I agree, that's a problem.

For a lot of schools, that's probably part of what they regard as a sound business model.

You have to start somewhere - it might as well be what you know and where you're comfortable; then you can modify, if you feel you need to.

I think that, in the case of the Korean TKD directorate, this literal-minded affiliation strategy winds up channelling people in the direction of competition rather than combat-readiness for real-life threat situations. It's not so much that being with the KKW forces you to go a certain way, but rather that going that way becomes the course of least resistance. You start buying into a view of the MA culture that comes from what is, after all, the technical/pedagogical branch of the South Korean TKD establishment, dedicated first and foremost to Olympic glory.

Having never been in the KKW, I can't speak to any of this.

 

[IcemanSK]

That it the big part for me. I think we owe our students as much credibility for their rank as possible. And, while we all see so many problems with big orgnizations, in my opinion a Kukkiwon certificate is the best option that we have (right now at least).
For example, I tested for 1st degree and 2nd degree and paid for my Kukkiwon certificates but never received them. My instructor got married and moved to the bahamas and everyone was left without certificates. Luckily for me my parents knew how important martial arts was to me (I was 12 at the time) and they sought out another master who was at my 2nd degree test (which at that point had been at least a year prior). My folks scraped up the money they didn't have at the time and GM Kim Hyung Jin vouched for me and got my certificate for me (that is another interesting story: somehow he managed for me to "skip" 1st degree and receive a 2nd Dan certificate. Also felt he should award me with a Dan certificate even though I was only 12. Kind of a cool story, but also shows that Kukkiwon certificates aren't too hard to come by if you know the right people).
When I started training again with the brother of a former sparring partner he was shocked that I had a Kukkiwon card. I was the first of all the abandoned students to actually have one and it automatically gave me a step ahead of the others. This instructor (who I consider my only sahbonim) treated everyone that transfered into his school great, allowed them to wear the black belts and got them kukkiwon certificates as soon as possible, but I still felt it made me stand out from the others initially because I HAD the certification (and it was obvious that TKD was the priority for my parents and me). And, had the others not been so lucky to find such a great new instructor (he knew the sitution of our previous instructor) they may have had to start over again at white belt, or at least at a lower rank so that the new instructor could get more testing fees out of them. They really had no credibility at all as black belts.

Long story short (too late right!) having some sort of certificate from a "crediable" association can only help your students. I feel that we as instructors are obligated to do as much as we can for our students and to me making sure they get a Kukkiwon certificate falls under that obligation. Again, if some other organization rises from the ashes and becomes as well known as the Kukkiwon I could easily jump ship, but for now my money will continue to go to the Kukkiwon.

Uh, wow! That is quite a story. It says a lot about your parents, too. Very familar to a lot of folks, too. You're right about white belts not knowing or caring about certificates & credentials. But as the get higher in rank, it's more important for portability if nothing else.

Portability is important for ITF style folks as well. Since the former ITF is a smaller world, the higher ranked folks stick out & are more well known (for better or worse). I imagine that, despite the splinter, who one's instructor is/was would become the portability factor. I'd bet that if Kacey were to move to the Chicago burbs & want to train under an ITF style master there, her credentials would be accepted because of who her Sa Bum in Denver is.

 

[Brad Dunne]

I'll most likely stumble all over myself in this post, because my mind is racing with all sorts of thoughts.

Aside from portability and there has been some question on that aspect on other posts, a KKW cert is only good if you want to attempt serious competition. For the vast majority of TKD practicioners, this is not really a factor. As for those that just want to compete, because they enjoy the sport aspect of what their training in, a KKW cert is not required. I remember all the events I went to years ago, the question of what organization never came up, only what style and who was your instructor.

Most organizations want nothing more than your money. They'll issue a cert for your BB's and some even want to issue gup certs. Some will say that the organization gives them guidelines and procedures to adhear to. Well even the all knowing KKW has those same aspects, but just about every instructor we've listened to, has flatly stated that their school goes above and beyond what the KKW dictates for training. So then, why would there be a need for any organizational certification, if the school has superior training. The best test I can suggest is to go to a decent sized seminar, you will know in a heartbeat, who is real and who are the posers. Make it an effort to talk with some of these folks, on both sides of the equation and you just may be very surprised at what you uncover.

I've seen some instructors, who offer the following; 1) A school cert, 2) An organization cert (Their own organization), 3) A kwan cert 4) A KKW cert. Now comes whats behind door #2, you can obtain any or all or any combination of these certs. BUT WAIT!!!.......If your one of the next 100,000 requestors, we'll double that value. That's right, we'll give you 2 of everything for the same price.........:shrug::rofl:

OK, enough rambling........bottom line. If your trained properly and you inturn train your students the same, then sign a napkin and give it to me. I've never seen anyone use a cert to defend themselves with, but at least I can use the napkin to blow my nose.

 

[Doc_Jude]

I do understand how conforming with the requirements of different organizations can add credibility to your school and the ranks of your students (rank portability, as mentioned above). However, at the end of the day, your ability to thump butt, in a manner or method as prescribed by your chosen art, is the true measure of your training, & no governing body outside of your school will add or subtract from your skill.
Organizations can maintain some level of quality & continuity, but a membership card, like a black belt, won't save your butt.