Corrupted Poomsae

[puunui]

Puunui: your tone and comment felt rude and uncalled for.

I was merely parroting the words that you yourself used. So if you feel the tone or comment was rude and uncalled for, then perhaps you should think twice about using such words to describe others or the institution whose certificates and training you are so proud of.

The original reference was towards those who passed on corrupted poomsae without either knowing/caring and the kkw not checking up on what the instructors they certify are teaching.

How does that change the fact that your words (which I copied and used with respect to you) was rude and uncalled for? If you are going to subject others to that sort of harsh criticism, then you should be prepared to accept it yourself when used towards you. Put another way, perhaps the leniency and understanding that you are so willing to heap onto yourself when mistaken (the 60/40 50/50 thing) can also be used towards others as well.

I have been to many kkw seminars and courses to make sure that I am teaching the correct standard.

Which is why it makes no sense to me why you would want to complain about the kukkiwon in any shape or form. I would think that you would instead be grateful for the opportunity to attend such courses and encourage others to attend as well.

Done with you sir. Blocked.

And who loses if you do that? Me? I don't think so. But no problem. At least you are consistent, that I am being treated the same way that you treat the Kukkiwon. You take the good parts with one hand while shooting out public disrespect with the other.

 

[puunui]

Oh and by the way,

.After reading this thread I had to think about what the correct response should be.I learned mdk tkd/tsd hyung from baek, moon ku who learned them from ki, hwang.

GM HWANG Kee's last name is Hwang, not Kee. And his first name is spelled Kee, not Ki. You have GM Baek's name in the proper order (baek, moon ku), but not GM Hwang's (ki, hwang). I assume you are using that comma to emphasize that the last name is first, and first name is last. Also, in order to avoid confusion I usually spell the last name in all capitals, which is the way the IOC chooses to do it.

http://www.olympic.org/content/the-ioc/the-ioc-institution1/ioc-members-list/

 

[mastercole]

2013 is the last time the Instructor Course will be held in the Kukkiwon, before the Academy moves to the Taekwondo Park (now known as the Taekwondowon).

That is why I am going, to take my sons so they have the experience of attend the course at the Kukkiwon. They have done training at the Kukkiwon and they loved it, so a full week at the course will be an awesome experience for them. I also want them to take the first courses offered at Taekwondowon as well. I think we might just stay in Korea for a month or so since the course and the opening of the park are sort of close time wise.

 

[puunui]

I think we might just stay in Korea for a month or so since the course and the opening of the park are sort of close time wise.

When is the Taekwondowon scheduled to open? September 4?

 

[mastercole]

When is the Taekwondowon scheduled to open? September 4?

That is what I was told, but not everything will be finished until about 2014-15, supposedly.

 

[mastercole]

this is exactly how we do it, I think I know the club, they are australian also. Maybe its an aussie thing

see new thread. Anyone know who Moon Lee of Australia is?

 

[miguksaram]

That is why I am going, to take my sons so they have the experience of attend the course at the Kukkiwon. They have done training at the Kukkiwon and they loved it, so a full week at the course will be an awesome experience for them. I also want them to take the first courses offered at Taekwondowon as well. I think we might just stay in Korea for a month or so since the course and the opening of the park are sort of close time wise.

It was my understanding that the Taekwondowon was something of WTF's doing and that happenings there was going to be separate from KKW. So now the KKW is going to be part of this as well, or did I totally misunderstand the purpose of the Taekwondowon from the very beginning?

 

[d1jinx]

It was my understanding that the Taekwondowon was something of WTF's doing and that happenings there was going to be separate from KKW. So now the KKW is going to be part of this as well, or did I totally misunderstand the purpose of the Taekwondowon from the very beginning?

you and me both.

I thought the park was seperate from KKW. now, I have to figure out a way to go to KKW 1 time this year before they close the doors.

 

[d1jinx]

ARCHTKD,

Back to your original question. I was taught pretty similiar to how the videos were done. In fact, very similiar. A few moves were different, like the step back after the last upchagi in taeguk1. But anyway, still, thats how i was taught and told thats the KKW way. That was back in the late 80's and 90's. Funny thing is, now I have KKW books from then, that show, they were the same today as they were then.

So how did they become so different? well, easy. the same way I learned them and was told "the right way" was the way the instructor either chose to do them or was taught them. Now with so much emphisis being placed on bringing all KKW TKD poomse back to "spec", most if not all are trying to do just that. The right way. But I also know 2 who refuse to change. And they still promote KKW, still compete, and still say "this is how we do it and we're not changing". And it only re-enforces thier thoughts when their people go to regional qualifiers and WIN, doing it thier way. go figure.

 

[mastercole]

It was my understanding that the Taekwondowon was something of WTF's doing and that happenings there was going to be separate from KKW. So now the KKW is going to be part of this as well, or did I totally misunderstand the purpose of the Taekwondowon from the very beginning?

I only know what was discussed with my Korean seniors. The WTF is the International Federation for Taekwondo with offices in Europe and Seoul. The WTF endorses Taekwondowon, but it does not run it or control it. The services provide by Kukkiwon will somehow merge into the Taekwondowon. Once that happens, it is possible that the Kukkiwon will become like the all the Kwan. It would cease to exist, the building might be torn down and condo's would go up on that spot. Then I guess those of us who trained at and under the Kukkiwon would then be part of the "Kukkiwon social club" a fraternal society of past members who support the Taekwondowon and the WTF.

But no official statements of any kind have been made in this regard, so I really don't know for sure. I do think that certain things point in this direction though. The World Taekwondo Academy moving to Taekwondowon and now the changing of the name from Taekwondo Park to Taekwodowon. It reminds me of how the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) changed the name of it's Central Gymnasium to "Kukkiwon", then after time, they made Kukkiwon completely independent from KTA. The services that the KTA use to do for all of Taekwondo were given over to Kukkiwon. Now it appears those same services will be give over by Kukkiwon to the new Taekwondowon.

The more I think about it, I think it is a great plan and I am excited to see it all unfold.

 

[mastercole]

ARCHTKD,

Back to your original question. I was taught pretty similiar to how the videos were done. In fact, very similiar. A few moves were different, like the step back after the last upchagi in taeguk1. But anyway, still, thats how i was taught and told thats the KKW way. That was back in the late 80's and 90's. Funny thing is, now I have KKW books from then, that show, they were the same today as they were then.

So how did they become so different? well, easy. the same way I learned them and was told "the right way" was the way the instructor either chose to do them or was taught them. Now with so much emphisis being placed on bringing all KKW TKD poomse back to "spec", most if not all are trying to do just that. The right way. But I also know 2 who refuse to change. And they still promote KKW, still compete, and still say "this is how we do it and we're not changing". And it only re-enforces thier thoughts when their people go to regional qualifiers and WIN, doing it thier way. go figure.

Some folks just will not accept facts. They can win at USAT events, but it ends there. It won't work on the international scene. So their instructors have created an artificial barrier that prevents them from going international with their Poomsae.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Some folks just will not accept facts. They can win at USAT events, but it ends there. It won't work on the international scene. So their instructors have created an artificial barrier that prevents them from going international with their Poomsae.

Therein lies an important and often overlooked consideration. We are a highly mobile society. People relocate for work, school family, etc. Now, if they think they have been taught the "right way" and relocate to a school that truly teaches the widely acepted standard they will of course think the new place is doing it wrong. With a little research they will learn that the new place is correct and they have been taught wrong. How do you think they will feel about the previous instruction?

Instructors do a disservice to their students when they do not teach according to the widely accepted standard and allow their students to think otherwise. If, an instructor thinks they have a "Better way" why not just teach the standard, make sure the students know it, and explain why you think some alteration may be "better" and let them learn that as well. (I wouldn't suggest too much info for beginners.)

 

[mastercole]

Therein lies an important and often overlooked consideration. We are a highly mobile society. People relocate for work, school family, etc. Now, if they think they have been taught the "right way" and relocate to a school that truly teaches the widely acepted standard they will of course think the new place is doing it wrong. With a little research they will learn that the new place is correct and they have been taught wrong. How do you think they will feel about the previous instruction?

Instructors do a disservice to their students when they do not teach according to the widely accepted standard and allow their students to think otherwise. If, an instructor thinks they have a "Better way" why not just teach the standard, make sure the students know it, and explain why you think some alteration may be "better" and let them learn that as well. (I wouldn't suggest too much info for beginners.)

A few year back I had a practitioner move to my town from across Cleveland. They held a black belt from that school of some dan level I don't recall, the certificate had lots of Dragon's, Tigers and poorly written Hanja all over it, anyway they did the most mutated version of Kemgang Poomsae I ever saw, complete with kicks and ground rolls. My Dan holders watch in amazement. I was cool and said "great", let me show you these books and video by the Kukkiwon. They were in shock, stating that the book and video were wrong. I them ran then through Keumgang several times, they said it was a very odd way to do Keumgang. On another day they attended sparring training. It was like someone walking down the street just stopped in and tried to spar. I had to remove them from the sparring because I was in great fear for their safety. They were literally running into kicks and punches, at the same time they were kicking and punching poorly at the air and screaming. Later I asked if they felt they would be able to adapt to our school, which meant following the standard of Kukkiwon. Their comment was that they did not care what kind of books or video's I had, that there were thousands of them out there, pick one. But they were doing the true and original version because their American born instructor did not learn it from a book or video, he learned it from GM Kim who came over from Korea and had learned in there. They also felt that no one at the sparring class new anything about Taekwondo sparring as well. They still live in my town but drive across Cleveland to attend their old school.

 

[mastercole]

On a very different note, a few years ago a black belt practitioner from Winnipeg, Canada moved to my town. His Poomsae is excellent and he generally nails the Kukkiwon standard.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Later I asked if they felt they would be able to adapt to our school, which meant following the standard of Kukkiwon. .

If I think they are not following the widely accepted standard, this is one of the first things I ask... before they step on the floor. I explain that we follow a certain standard and ask if they are open minded and adaptable. If they are non Chang Hon I really emphasize this point and if they have substantial time in another system I explainm that they are welcome to train and learn, but the transition would be much easier for them if they found a school that teaches the same system.

If they are Chang Hon, depending on who is on the floor I may have several students perform a pattern and then announce where they learned it. When they say, Canada, Russia, Poland, Czech Republic, Connecticut... and the person thought I had taught all of them because they were so similar, then they get the point.

 

[andyjeffries]

That is why I am going, to take my sons so they have the experience of attend the course at the Kukkiwon. They have done training at the Kukkiwon and they loved it, so a full week at the course will be an awesome experience for them. I also want them to take the first courses offered at Taekwondowon as well. I think we might just stay in Korea for a month or so since the course and the opening of the park are sort of close time wise.

Sounds like I may also get to meet Joe then and thank him personally for the help he's given me! (and thank you personally of course my friend!)

 

[miguksaram]

I only know what was discussed with my Korean seniors. The WTF is the International Federation for Taekwondo with offices in Europe and Seoul. The WTF endorses Taekwondowon, but it does not run it or control it. The services provide by Kukkiwon will somehow merge into the Taekwondowon. Once that happens, it is possible that the Kukkiwon will become like the all the Kwan. It would cease to exist, the building might be torn down and condo's would go up on that spot. Then I guess those of us who trained at and under the Kukkiwon would then be part of the "Kukkiwon social club" a fraternal society of past members who support the Taekwondowon and the WTF.

But no official statements of any kind have been made in this regard, so I really don't know for sure. I do think that certain things point in this direction though. The World Taekwondo Academy moving to Taekwondowon and now the changing of the name from Taekwondo Park to Taekwodowon. It reminds me of how the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) changed the name of it's Central Gymnasium to "Kukkiwon", then after time, they made Kukkiwon completely independent from KTA. The services that the KTA use to do for all of Taekwondo were given over to Kukkiwon. Now it appears those same services will be give over by Kukkiwon to the new Taekwondowon.

The more I think about it, I think it is a great plan and I am excited to see it all unfold.

Thank you for that clarification. My last trip there I was not really in favor of the Taekwondowon because of the way they were presenting it. I was very disappointed in what they were showing. I forgot my exact words, but I believe I told them it looked nothing more than a glorified Disney world with TKD as a side show. Mostly because they were touting on how they were going to include so much culture of Korea into this project, yet, in order to do that, they were going to tear up half the mountain side and country side in order to make it happen, thus killing off some of that which they were claiming to display.

They went on to say that all historical culture preservation would have to funded by donations while everything else would be paid for through their budget. Perhaps, all that has changed since my last trip with the USTC back in 2010.

I will tell you that I do like the fact that it will be Muju Jeolla-bukdo province. The main reason it is right next to my wife's hometown of Jeonju, but another reason it gives exposure to that part of the country that very few people get a chance to see.

 

[puunui]

So how did they become so different? well, easy. the same way I learned them and was told "the right way" was the way the instructor either chose to do them or was taught them. Now with so much emphisis being placed on bringing all KKW TKD poomse back to "spec", most if not all are trying to do just that. The right way. But I also know 2 who refuse to change. And they still promote KKW, still compete, and still say "this is how we do it and we're not changing". And it only re-enforces thier thoughts when their people go to regional qualifiers and WIN, doing it thier way. go figure.

I think it was a combination of a lot of different factors which led to the way it is done in the US. For one thing, many of the early taekwondo teachers who immigrated to the US learned their poomsae in Korea when there was the fascination with Japanese karate, with the wide stance and so forth. Then when they learned the new forms (which were supposed to be done with the short narrow stance), they learned at short seminars which did not allow enough time to fully absorb the technical aspects of the forms. They just wanted people to get the movements. There is also an amount of peer pressure involved, at least those involved with the USTU. There is or was a USTU style, doing the slap blocks in taebaek with dynamic tension, for example, instead of quickly like how it is supposed to be done.

Those sorts of things.

 

[puunui]

But no official statements of any kind have been made in this regard, so I really don't know for sure. I do think that certain things point in this direction though. The World Taekwondo Academy moving to Taekwondowon and now the changing of the name from Taekwondo Park to Taekwodowon. It reminds me of how the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) changed the name of it's Central Gymnasium to "Kukkiwon", then after time, they made Kukkiwon completely independent from KTA. The services that the KTA use to do for all of Taekwondo were given over to Kukkiwon. Now it appears those same services will be give over by Kukkiwon to the new Taekwondowon.

The more I think about it, I think it is a great plan and I am excited to see it all unfold.

I disagree. it might be a great plan, but the execution is no good. For one thing, it is in muju. If they had done it in Seoul, at the Olympic Park someplace for example, then there would be much less objection. As it stands, the Seoul City Taekwondo Association (by far the largest regional association of the KTA) will be displaced, and now we have to travel way down the penninsula, frequently after a very long plane flight, to get there. And when we finally get there, other than the Taekwondowon, there is nothing to do. Chonju shuts down at 8pm.

 

[miguksaram]

I disagree. it might be a great plan, but the execution is no good. For one thing, it is in muju. If they had done it in Seoul, at the Olympic Park someplace for example, then there would be much less objection. As it stands, the Seoul City Taekwondo Association (by far the largest regional association of the KTA) will be displaced, and now we have to travel way down the penninsula, frequently after a very long plane flight, to get there. And when we finally get there, other than the Taekwondowon, there is nothing to do. Chonju shuts down at 8pm.

Actually it would be in Muju and I'm sure with such a big attraction they will accommodate for the night life. They are already set up as a tourist place for most part as Muju is a big ski area for Korea, Japan and China. So having the Taekwondowon there would give them tourism during the off-season for skiing.

BTW...There is nightlife in Jeonju after 8pm...you just have to know where to go.