Should Sex Ed be reformed?

[tellner]

Theories should remain theories. Tell the kids all about evolution, but at least mention just once that some people believe that the deity created the world. After all theories are just that THEORIES.

Lad, you really ought to keep quiet about things you know nothing about. It's dead obvious that you have absolutely no idea about what science is or how it's done. If you did you'd be embarrassed to open your mouth and let "After all theories are just that THEORIES" drop out. It displays a truly appalling degree of ignorance, something along the lines of "The moon is more useful than the sun because the moon lights up the night. The sun is out in the day when it's already light." Seriously.

 

[Tez3]

So are you telling us that orthodox Jews teach children that abortion, contraception of all kinds, homosexuality, multiple partners and anal sex are ok as long as your protected and btw you can also be abstinate. That sounds strange to me. By orthodox, I would think that it would be the other way around.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking the piss, (well maybe a little), but I'm sure there's nothing about the above in the Torah.

No I'm not saying that at all,and I have never said that it should be taught, if you read my posts you will find out what I think should be taught and by whom.

 

[Tez3]

In the USA, 'sex ed' often consists of both the former (biology) and the latter (behavior) as well as given free condoms, encouragement to get out there and get bizzy, and pep-talks about how it is OK to want to have sex with one of the same sex or what-have-you and in fact, they ought to do it. The 'behavior' part is the part that I believe usurps parent's rights.


quote]
Bill, this is the same in the UK. It was before I took A-Levels in '93 anyway. I attended a whole term of MANDATORY sex ed in 5th Form (10th grade). Abstinence was mentioned, but the majority of the class consisted of demonstrations with condoms on cucumbers, it's ok to have sex, that mutual masturbation is freferable, and advise on STDs. Guess what there were so many pregnancies that the school had a nursery. Great job at prevention.

A few friends that I had gone to middle school with attended Cardinal Heanan High School in Leeds. They didn't teach sex ed at all and yet chilsd pregnancy was unheard of at the school. What gives?

The school btw is the Cardinal Heenan and sex education isn't mandatory in this country. All parents have the right to take their children out of the classes and many do.
As for showing soft porn films in UK schools, which schools where? because I very much doubt it.

 

[Carol]

In a scientific application, a theory is a principle derived from a systematic analysis of a set of facts. It does not mean "scientific guesswork".

 

[Tez3]

Amen Brother... I'm with you 100% on this.




When I was in School... I always hoped for "Sex Ed Lab" and had my Eye on Becky... but alas It never came to pass. *sigh*


Ya know, FWIW, I dunno how its done all over the place anymore... but as far as the parents having a say... In my day we had to bring a permission slip home and have it signed by our parents, if they didn't we didn't get the class. It was taught to us in a fairly clinical manner, and we didnt get abstinance speeches OR Condoms for free. Methods of birth control were discussed, Mainly Condoms, Spermacide and Diaphrams, but these were not demo'ed or encouraged rather, simply explained. I don't see anything wrong with that type of education, especially given todays climate... and I think anything else should be left to the parents. (Although, thinking about it... mine NEVER discussed any of that stuff with me. Hmm. Where the hell did I learn?)

This is how it's still done in the UK despite what some would have you think, there is little time for sex education with the national curriculum. Childbirth and pictures of women giving birth are in the biology class not the sex education. Comdoms aren't handed out probably because it means someone has to pay for them and there isn't the budget for them.

 

[elder999]

A few things, in no particular order.

Sounds like a great idea. Seriously.

But that's a problem for me. I don't want children taught in public schools that homosexuality is just as acceptable as heterosexuality. That is for parents to decide. And the school just goes ahead and does it.

Even if their parents don't want them exposed to that and believe it is not the school's business.

That's a false argument. I have no answer - no alternative - but I'm not arguing in the alternative. I'm arguing the point of liberty. There need be no alternative presented when liberties are being suppressed.

Bill I understand your completely cogent arguments, from a libertarian and conservative point of view. I don't completely agree with them, or think they're necessary, but I understand them. I don't think they're necessary because in most places that I know of in the U.S., parents still have to give permission for their kids to receive "sex ed," at least, that's how it was for me an my kids, but they've both been out of school for nearly a decade now. Which leads to my question, which is both relevant-given the vehemence of your arguments-and irrelevant, given the forum in which we're engaging them:

Do you have any kids of your own?

Theories should remain theories. Tell the kids all about evolution, but at least mention just once that some people believe that the deity created the world. After all theories are just that THEORIES.

Those are scientists' screams you're hearing, and while parents can decide what they want to tell their children, they can't decide what is and isn't science.

AAAAAAAH! As I've posted elsewhere at length-this is an incorrect ***umption about what a "scientific theory" is. Theories are not "just" theories-there is a standard for testability and disprovability. "Quantum theory" is testable and disprovable, so it gets to be called a theory, until something comes along and replaces it. "The theory of gravity," has pretty much been tested and proven to the point where it's largely no longer a "theory," it's the Law of Gravity. "The theory of evolution" is largely testable and disprovable, and is well on it's way to being the law.

Deities, intelligent creation, creationism, are all neither scientifically testable or disprovable. They cannot be theories. At best, they are hypotheses or postulates. Doesn't make them any less valid than they are-just less valid scientifically. And, for the last time, as a scientist who believes in a Creator-it isn't the place of science to prove or disprove a Creator, and it isn't the place of religion to fit itself into "science." Thusly, there is no conflict between the two, and, in due time, one or the other will happen to prove the other-or one will disprove the other. In the meantime, the scientifically valid theories belong in public school science class, the others-being religion-simply do not.

Ya know, FWIW, I dunno how its done all over the place anymore... but as far as the parents having a say... In my day we had to bring a permission slip home and have it signed by our parents, if they didn't we didn't get the class. It was taught to us in a fairly clinical manner, and we didnt get abstinance speeches OR Condoms for free. Methods of birth control were discussed, Mainly Condoms, Spermacide and Diaphrams, but these were not demo'ed or encouraged rather, simply explained. I don't see anything wrong with that type of education, especially given todays climate... and I think anything else should be left to the parents. (Although, thinking about it... mine NEVER discussed any of that stuff with me. Hmm. Where the hell did I learn?)

As I said-I also had to have permission, and so did my kids.At the time, both back in NY for me and here in NM for my kids, it was largely as you describe. I don't see anything wrong with it either, though I can see the validity in Bill's arguments, from a Libertarian standpoint-just not a practical one, if permission is still required.......
.....andm as I pointed out, my parents discussed all that stuff with me, and I think the world of them, but I went out and did what I wanted to, anyway, like most teenagers

 

[Stac3y]

Just signed the permission slip for my 4th grader to see a film about puberty. Waste of time, for him, as we've already covered that at home, but I'm sure some of his classmates will find it helpful.

BTW, someone (Bill, I think) said that "soft core porn, including film of a teenage girl giving birth" is shown in some schools in England. Film of a teenage girl (or anyone else) giving birth is NOT porn by any stretch of the imagination. More like a horror film. I have seen grown men lose their lunch while watching birthing films. Giving birth is beautiful and natural on the one hand; on the other, it is extremely painful and bloody.

So this brings me to a related topic: in many Catholic schools, kid are shown graphic films of abortions. What do all of you think of that?

 

[arnisador]

I believe that lying is almost always a bad thing. That includes lying to children. Partly it's a matter of core values which are based on emotion and therefore not subject to logical argument. It's also with an eye towards their future development. If they learn that it's okay for you to lie to them they will believe with some justice that it's alright to lie to others. "It's alright for me to lie to you because I'm bigger and older. It's wrong for you to lie to me," is not a good basis for ethical behaviour in later life.

It also undermines everything else you teach them.

My daughter recently called out the schools and media on that--pointing out the hypocrisy of the anti-drinking messages in a world saturated with alcohol ads and with adults who drink. A textbook treated alcohol virtually as a poison and she found it laughable. We had a long chat about all that--the usual "in moderation" and "more appropriate for adults" and "nothing magic about 21 but there has to be a line somewhere" sort of thing. Luckily she's not interested in alcohol now (but she only just turned 15).

 

[arnisador]

BTW, someone (Bill, I think) said that "soft core porn, including film of a teenage girl giving birth" is shown in some schools in England. Film of a teenage girl (or anyone else) giving birth is NOT porn by any stretch of the imagination. More like a horror film.

We watched a film of a woman giving birth in health class when I was in high school. It was awful. It put me off of thinking about sex for oh, nearly 15 minutes. It was that bad!

 

[jks9199]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-jks9199
-MT Moderator-

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't think they're necessary because in most places that I know of in the U.S., parents still have to give permission for their kids to receive "sex ed," at least, that's how it was for me an my kids, but they've both been out of school for nearly a decade now.

If sex-ed were voluntary, or if parents were at least permitted to refuse to allow their children to attend, I'd have no problems with it.

It is not what is taught, or how it is taught, that bothers me as much as when parents are not given the authority to refuse, when condoms are handed out without parent's permission, and most especially when birth control is made available for underage girls by the school, and it is actually illegal for the school to notify parents. That is a wide and deep usurpation of parental rights, IMHO.

Which leads to my question, which is both relevant-given the vehemence of your arguments-and irrelevant, given the forum in which we're engaging them:

Do you have any kids of your own?

No, I do not. However, I pay taxes which fund public schools, I have to live with the consequences of what is taught in public schools, and I am a citizen, entitled to engage in the lively and spirited debate about how public schools ought be run. So I'm not sure how this is cogent.

 

[MJS]

I see a few more that've jumped on the 'parental rights' bandwagon. Newsflash folks....for those that're so worried about the govt controlling what we do...they control alot. You may feel that you should be able to drive 50mph on a road thats designated for 30mph, but you have a choice....obey that 30 or drive the 50 and risk getting a ticket. The fire marshall controls how many people can be in a particular building. He sets the limit at 200, but the owner may feel that he can cram in 300. Sorry, its out of his hands.

Lets look at this...and this is something that I've seen a few others say in this thread already, but I'll say it again. What about those parents that teach nothing? Now their kids have no guidance because its a taboo topic with Ward and June Cleaver, so what happens when little Johnny or Suzie makes a mistake? What about those parents who have real ****ed up ideas, dont tell their kids anything, and now their 15yo gets pregnant? Who foots that bill, because I sure as hell dont feel that I should! IMO, welfare should be limited so the free-loaders dont get a lifetime free ride.

I have said that the bc pills should be given by a doctor. Of course, regardless of what mommy and daddy think, once the kid is 18 or 21, if they wanna get them, mom and dad have no more say. As for the condoms...I suppose folks like Bill think that planned parenthood should shut its doors. Afterall, you can walk in there and get condoms.

Come on folks, its no different than when we see a kid well under the legal age to purchase cigs. walking around or standing at the bus stop smoking. Where did they get them? Did they break into their parents stash? Did they have their older brother or sister get them? Maybe an older friend? Fact is, if they want them, they're gonna get them, regardless of what Ward and June think.

Drinking is the same thing. If the parents ban their child from drinking, the kid is gonna find a way...it happens all the time.

Guess I just can't understand why people wear the rose colored glasses, think that their innocent glass doll will be innocent forever, nothing bad will happen in the fairy tail land, and they'll never be tainted by the evils of society. I'd rather educate my kid, and yes, give them the tools and education on proper use, so when that day comes, my daughter doesnt tell me that in 9mos, there will be an addition to the family.

 

[Lisa]

Think back to when you were a kid just for a moment. Now, I wasn't a bad kid in any sense but damn I had girlfriends getting pregnant, left right and center. Sex education was just starting. Free clinics were not as available and girls were terrified that mom and dad would find their birth control. I had one girlfriend who went on the pill and her parents took it away thinking she wouldn't have sex...WRONG!!! Two months later she was pregnant. There is a perfect example of good parenting right there. Stick your head in the ground and tell your kid no, cause they will listen, won't they??

I think it is responsible of the schools to teach sex education and teach the kids to be safe. Not all of them will be, but hell neither were we when we were kids.

I would rather arm my child with information and teach them how to deal with situations then have them deal with them on their own and make mistakes. Especially when a mistake means another mouth to feed and changing their life forever.

 

[Twin Fist]

you know Lisa, your friend could have exercised just the tiniest bit of self control and said "i dont have birth control, we cant screw" or maybe even "i dont have birth control, use a condom" that she didnt say either of those things just makes her stupid or weak.

NOTHING would change that. No amount of sex ed, nothing

 

[Lisa]

you know Lisa, your friend could have exercised just the tiniest bit of self control and said "i dont have birth control, we cant screw" or maybe even "i dont have birth control, use a condom" that she didnt say either of those things just makes her stupid or weak.

NOTHING would change that. No amount of sex ed, nothing

Stupid or weak or naive or wanting love from somewhere or peer pressured or whatever COULD have been changed by sex ed, or at least helped. Sex ed isn't just about how to use a condom. It is an environment for teens/kids to be able to see and learn options. Saying NOTHING would change that is stupid and weak, because we all have the ability to change, if given the opportunity.

How much self control did we all really have when we were young? How many of us thought "it could never happen to us"

Its nice now that we have lived the lives we have and have the abilities we do now, to look back on others that have made mistakes and simply punch it up to "no self control" as we look down our noses at them and think NOTHING could change that.


Lots of things can change, if only given the right tools to use when we are making our decisions. I wish I knew then what I know now. I am not the same person I was years ago.

But I am getting off topic here, for here we are not talking about my girlfriend and her lack of "self control" or her "stupidity and weakness", we are talking about sex education. I for one am all for it. I have a great rapport with my girls but I am sure there are things they don't want to talk to me about or ask me, so they have the classes and even if they learn it but just hearing it, at least they have heard it and can mull it over and hopefully use it in the future.

 

[MJS]

you know Lisa, your friend could have exercised just the tiniest bit of self control and said "i dont have birth control, we cant screw" or maybe even "i dont have birth control, use a condom" that she didnt say either of those things just makes her stupid or weak.

NOTHING would change that. No amount of sex ed, nothing

Yes, I'm sure every young kid is always thinking with the head on their shoulders in the 'heat of the moment.'

Seriously though...education in anything doesn't always mean that the kid is going to use their best judgement. As I said, my drivers ed teacher as well as my parents told me not to drive like an ***. Did I always listen? No, but I never got into a crash due to excessive speed.

I feel that I was taught well by my parents. I learned alot thru the mistakes that they made in their day. My parents never forbid me to go to parties, and I'm sure they knew that somehow, some way, alcohol would be there. Yet, I never put myself into a position I would regret. Its that education and lessons that saved me from making mistakes I'd regret later on.

For all you or I or anyone else knows, maybe those kids had those Ward and June, glass housing living, rose colored glasses wearing parents, that didn't educate their kids or provide them with birthcontrol. Maybe, just maybe, if they had it, they'd have used it.

 

[Twin Fist]

no, not quite

she was ALREADY on the pill, she was sexually educated.

her parents threw them away

no way she didnt know about condoms

she simply made the STUPID decision to have sex and use no birth control

stupid and or weak

sex ed would not have changed that story one bit.


but, lisa is right, that one case is off topic

sex ed if it must be taught, should be limited to diseases, pregnancy, and how to avoid them.

period

no this is ok, and that is ok, no here have some condoms, no here is how you can get ont he pill.

this is the friggin internet age, if some chick wants the pill, she can GOOGLE how to get them. Walmart will sell condoms to anyone, regardless of age.

 

[MJS]

sex ed if it must be taught, should be limited to diseases, pregnancy, and how to avoid them.

period

no this is ok, and that is ok, no here have some condoms, no here is how you can get ont he pill.

this is the friggin internet age, if some chick wants the pill, she can GOOGLE how to get them. Walmart will sell condoms to anyone, regardless of age.

OK, so lets refrain from talking about Lisas friend and comment on the task at hand. Now, going on what you just said in the first paragraph, you included how to avoid the disease and pregnancy. So...this will include the education on the proper use of birth control. Yes, demos will need to be done on the proper way to use and apply a condom. If we want to get technical about this, whether or not the school nurse hands them out, or if they install a dispenser in the bathrooms, the fact remains, yet a fact that some refuse to see, is that kids will get them, no matter how hard parents try to prevent it. Did you see my post when I mentioned kids who smoke and drink?

Maybe I'm missing what some here are thinking should/should not be covered in the classes. If people feel that the nurse should not hand out condoms, fine. But as we all know, there're other ways to get them. Whether the kid goes to WalMart, KMart or the grocery store, has big bro or sis get them....whatever, parents need to snap back to the current century, and understand that this stuff is out there and their kids, no matter what the parents think, will get it! Period!

I never said that schools should hand out bc pills. As I've said MANY times, that needs to come from a doctor. But planned parent hood probably isn't going to turn away the 16yo who comes in to get a few condoms. And if that same 16yo has a question or 2, I'd bet dollars to donuts the pph staff will answer them.

Then again, the kids should be provided with a source to go to, if they need advice that they are too afraid to ask of Ward and June. If no source is available, then the kids will either go on what they feel is right or ask someone else, and for all we know, that other person may not give the best advice.

I still stand by what I believe....I'd rather have my kid wake me up at 3am and drive to get them from a party, instead of having a drunk friend try to drive them home. I'd rather have my kid come to me and ask me anything, instead of assuming something or asking someone who may not give the best advice. To this day, and I'm 35yrs old, my Mother has always said that if there was anything I ever wanted to talk to her about, she would always be there to listen. I thank God for that and have no shame in saying it either. And if I had a dollar for all of my sisters friends who'd come to MY mother for advice on something, because they were to afraid to ask their own parents, I'd be a very rich man. Kinda sad when you have to talk to a friends mom, because you're too afraid of what your own parents will say.

 

[teekin]

Note to All "Chicks"

1. Men need to provide All the condoms, All the time. Make sure to see the sales receipt so you know they are fresh.

2. If you think they are cheap quality and may tear, double up. Don't risk STD and pregnancy. Ignore his whining and he will whine.

3. He will make Alllllll Sorts of promises to avoid wearing a condom, Don't listen, he will lie like a rug. However, there is a small office procedure that a man can have done under local anaesthetic that will go a long way towards this. There are no side effects and minimal risk or would he rather have you assume All the risk?
Not that wonder drugs like Deprovera carries any long term health risks to us "chicks". :rpo:
lori

 

[elder999]

. So I'm not sure how this is cogent.

As a one-time single father to a girl going through puberty, I was pretty grateful for sex-ed classes. They couldn't help her pick out a bra, or feminine hygeine products, though, and, sometimes, neither could I. :lol:

Have kids, and you might be grateful too....:lol: