should new systems be regulated

[Bujingodai]

This just isn't possible. With all the reasons a style may get started or why one would change sides, jump ship or whatever, nah. Also how can you regulate what the particular goals are vs just waza?
As far as the world sokeship thing goes. I agree, total waste no verification at all,just a cheap certificate. I have met some pretty pathetic practitioners who are a member of that.
Hopefully you can regulate arts by association. Stay away from the cowboys and your rep and likely your standards will stay high.

Any just rambling

 

[DAC..florida]

I believe that new styles/arts in america are regulated by the consumer how many of you have seen a dojo open and close in the same year, not all dojos that dont make it are bad arts but think abuot it!

If new styles where to be regulated then I ask by whom?

Training hard breeds warroirs...........

 

[A.R.K.]

If new styles where to be regulated then I ask by whom?

As I said, its a good thing that it really can't be. And if it were on what basis or authority would it be judged. The regulators would come from systems that were at some point new. As long as it works its fine. As long as the intentions behind it are sound, its fine.

In the end there will always be those that resist change. There will always be those who speak against the new. They may feel threatened, jealous, envious or simply narrow in their outlook. But does it really matter? Will it stop someone? No.

 

[Disco]

Allow me to use this analogy. The automobile was invented. Did we stay with the original model, No. Did we stay with the basic concept, Yes. Every year there are new models. They get better looking, faster and safer (better engineering). We've learned how to do it better with our own flavor added.

From the history of Martial Arts that we/I have been educated in, the starting point was Sholin Kung Fu. If in fact this is the unequlvocal truth, then unless you practice SKF, all other styles are a hybrid. Now there is nothing wrong with a hybrid. Somebody saw something or someway to do it different, sometimes better, someways easier but allways trying to achieve progress. I have no Idea of just how many variations of different style from different countries there are. I would venture a guess that it's high triple digits. Nobody can re-invent the wheel. But every year they do re-invent it's look. New styles/systems/methods, whatever you choose to call them, boils down to basic human nature thinking of ways to try to make it better (The given here is that they are real practitioners and not charlatan's). The biggest advantage of the human race is their ability for rational thinking and adaptation. For those that choose to take that bold step (starting something new/different) I hope that they indeed have found a positive and productive venue to enhance the Martial Arts Community and I wish them well. I learned early on in life that change is inevitable. When I accepted it I actually learned more.

 

[A.R.K.]

Good post.

As I mentioned earlier there are only two, well perhaps three ways that a system can 'begin'. First, an individual simply 'creates' it and starts teaching it. This can be good or bad. If it's based on sound previous knowledge and experience without the greed attachment then that would be fine. The person can 'assign' himself rank in that system out of thin air if he wishes or base it off of previously earned ranks. Either way no one can really say yea or nay as this is the example set in previous generations around the world.

Secondly, an individual trains within an established system and then requests permision to begin a new system and is granted that permision. But again, rank of the founder in the new system is still 'created' as there is no one able to 'give' it to him...or can they? Actually, not only 'can' they but they 'do' in many instances from around the world. Call it recognition or promotion it has been done and as such is a precedent to follow.

Thirdly, an individual trains and wishes to 'create' a new system. Wishing not to 'promote' himself he seeks not only peer review but actually review from those with more experience than himself. They in turn, if satisfied, 'recognize' that individuals right to do so and honors the rank.

As I said in another thread, a Grandmaster of one style can not only recognize an individual from outside the style with rank in his style but can recognize an individual outside his system in their system, at least initially. It has been done countless times by those before us so the precedent has been set. It will be done countless times here after so the trend has been set. Who is to regulate or say otherwise? No one. They could not because at some point their own system was new and in some way fell in some shape or fashion into one of the three senerios above.

And although there is nothing really new, some interesting things of value have come about that we all now enjoy individually and as a group. Very inspiring

 

[Aegis]

Or (call me crazy) the instructor could create a new system and not bother giving himself any rank. Then he could promote his students to however high he feels they deserve, without ever giving himself a rank OR title. That way it would have to be the system people looked at rather than some made up title/rank.

Anyone know of a case where this has happened?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Aegis
Or (call me crazy) the instructor could create a new system and not bother giving himself any rank. Then he could promote his students to however high he feels they deserve, without ever giving himself a rank OR title. That way it would have to be the system people looked at rather than some made up title/rank.

Anyone know of a case where this has happened?

I agree with you but that would never work.
Being the badest mother in the valley doesn’t mean squat unless you have all the BS rank and BS titles to go with it.

You see today’s martial artist simply MUST have all the bells and whistles to get perspective students attention.
They must have not just one but a few high dan ranks (bloated of course) in an obscure unverifiable style of course…..nothing less than 8th or 9th dan will do, they must also have titles like Soke. It doesn’t matter that their technique sucks and is far inferior to your average shodan or that they have never stayed in one style long enough to know it but merely “dojo hopped”.
Some even have bogus PhDs that were earned through the mail and the only written material required to receive it was signing a check.
They might also claim to have taught military or law enforcement.
(Which is a joke. Law enforcement is actually legally limited to the types of techniques they can and cannot use. Teaching the military is also not what is appears. )

Students need all these fictitious props to feel secure that they are getting their moneys worth too.
As we all know, any martial artist that is worth his salt MUST have high rank, must have a title, must have taught some sort of law enforcement or military.

 

[Phil Elmore]

The power to regulate something is the power to ban it. Resist any and all calls to establish any sort of "governing body" for the martial arts.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
The power to regulate something is the power to ban it. Resist any and all calls to establish any sort of "governing body" for the martial arts.

Amen!

 

[Disco]

Sharp Phil, Kirk. I remember (vaguely), reading in a Martial Arts mag a few years back. Putting oversite by the Goverment on the Martial Arts in America. They wanted to be big brother to the dojo's. They referenced the position of other countries that the arts have the backing / recognition from their governments. Have you guys ever read or heard anything on this? I'm glad that it has never come to pass, but if they thought of it once they just mite think of it again. Weve got gun legislation up the gazoo. I can see it now: well my right foot is registered, but I have to get a special permit for my left..................

 

[Cthulhu]

Regulation would never work (who? how? what set of guidelines?). Standards are silly.

Only two things can determine the viability of any 'new' system: time and acceptance of peers.

TKD is relatively new, but given time, it's been spreading like crazy. The same can be said for JKD.

Any new system has to withstand the test of time, and that must be coupled with continued growth of student and instructor population during that timeframe.

Cthulhu
diggin' his new 'puter

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Regulation would never work (who? how? what set of guidelines?). Standards are silly.

Only two things can determine the viability of any 'new' system: time and acceptance of peers.

TKD is relatively new, but given time, it's been spreading like crazy. The same can be said for JKD.

Any new system has to withstand the test of time, and that must be coupled with continued growth of student and instructor population during that timeframe.

Cthulhu
diggin' his new 'puter

I kind of touched on that but it wasn't heard amonst all the stuff.
What I said as I have found is my opinion and not that of a whole lot of other people. But here it is, I said:

My art is not a style, it is a system. Anybody can create a new system but a style will stand the test of time.

Which naturally any new system has yet to have accomplished.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I agree with you but that would never work.
Being the badest mother in the valley doesn’t mean squat unless you have all the BS rank and BS titles to go with it.

You see today’s martial artist simply MUST have all the bells and whistles to get perspective students attention.
They must have not just one but a few high dan ranks (bloated of course) in an obscure unverifiable style of course…..nothing less than 8th or 9th dan will do, they must also have titles like Soke. It doesn’t matter that their technique sucks and is far inferior to your average shodan or that they have never stayed in one style long enough to know it but merely “dojo hopped”.
Some even have bogus PhDs that were earned through the mail and the only written material required to receive it was signing a check.
They might also claim to have taught military or law enforcement.
(Which is a joke. Law enforcement is actually legally limited to the types of techniques they can and cannot use. Teaching the military is also not what is appears. )

Students need all these fictitious props to feel secure that they are getting their moneys worth too.
As we all know, any martial artist that is worth his salt MUST have high rank, must have a title, must have taught some sort of law enforcement or military.

Interesting perpective but we haven't established that anybody in these threads that dojo hopped technique sucked or their rank was based on signing a check.

Of course with an outside source money changes hands, but that dosen't mean that those are the guidelines for recognition. Being awarded rank from someone who has an organization that is recruiting members based on what they actually know is not ficticious. There are many people out there who are very well versed in the martial arts and it would be a great loss not let them teach.

I will admit that you can order any kind of certificate that you want for money. But I can also tell you that nobody that I've associated myself with does that.

Also Yiliquan1 stuck his training out there to be scrutinized by us in the "points to ponder "thread. I followed suit. "We" are still waiting for those of you who contributed to to that thread to put your training out there for us to see. I've heard many requests by many people to verify 1 individuals rank in particular. But "nobody" doing the requesting is putiing their training out there for us, just there opinions which nobody seems to really cares about anyway.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja

Also Yiliquan1 stuck his training out there to be scrutinized by us in the "points to ponder "thread. I followed suit. "We" are still waiting for those of you who contributed to to that thread to put your training out there for us to see. I've heard many requests by many people to verify 1 individuals rank in particular.

Be specific. Who's rank are you interested in?

Originally posted by akja

But "nobody" doing the requesting is putiing their training out there for us, just there opinions which nobody seems to really cares about anyway.

Who's opinion are you referring to?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
Interesting perpective but we haven't established that anybody in these threads that dojo hopped technique sucked or their rank was based on signing a check.

Is that so?

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Is that so?

Yes,
that is so!

I'm not attacking you, remember I was the attackee for several days and you know as well as I do that with all the minds in the world, this can go on forever.

Standards can very, its a simple matter. And I am man enough to admit that I was wrong saying those things about meeting you guys. But set aside all the B.S. we've addressed over the last several days. Nothing can take away from my abilities and I should not be held back from teaching.

I can only speak for myself, period. I was evaluated by someone qualified to do so. They could have a differant standard. There is no number one governing body for the arts although some people think theres should be the one.

But Yiliquan1 did set the stage in the points to ponder thread. And there were many people who had there opinions but nobody has returned since he posted and set the stage for everybody. It seems only he and I are willing to deliver the goods in its entirety!

I don't care what anybody thinks of me. I just come here to learn.

I do know you have a wealth of knowledge that would benefit me considering I am a "student" of Matsumura Shorin Ryu, that you should know if you've read my posts. And you should give me at least a tiny bit of respect for waiting to teach it until I receive a teaching certificate from George Alexander. Thats why I only teach the traditional arts to my family, because they are registered students of my instructors. Eventually I will teach both modern and traditional to the public but I've spent the last 8 years molding myself into what I beleive I should be and that is what my teaching should reflect for now.

I never intended for the public to think that I'm trying to present something superior. But you went to my site and the key was right in front of your face the whole time.

Kokon Ryu Bujutsukan

Maybe my Japanese sucks but I do practice both traditional and modern martial arts.

Have a good day!

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
I do know you have a wealth of knowledge that would benefit me considering I am a "student" of Matsumura Shorin Ryu, that you should know if you've read my posts. And you should give me at least a tiny bit of respect for waiting to teach it until I receive a teaching certificate from George Alexander.

George Alexander?
Uh.........don't even start me on that...........

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
George Alexander?
Uh.........don't even start me on that...........

Come on this is America and he is well respected here in America. You can't expect the American martial arts to be as they existed in Japan and Okinawa. But since you brought it up. Go for it.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
Come on this is America and he is well respected here in America. You can't expect the American martial arts to be as they existed in Japan and Okinawa. But since you brought it up. Go for it.

You brought his name into this.

While I have heard George is a fairly decent Martial Artist I do know that he goes to Okinawa to Kise Fuse’s dojo.

Kise is notorious for selling dan rank to foreigners that come over for short "budo tours". One person I know went to his 3rd class at Kise’s dojo and was asked to test for 4th kyu (freen belt). So if you want to get some rank from an Okinawan go to Kise’s.
Or you could go to Yabiku Takaya the cab driver that sells Hohan Soken dan ranks to foreigners as well.

Plus I know George does video training/testing. Alexander’s historical research leaves a lot to be desired as well.

I also know many of George's top studetns left when he went "commercial" too.

 

[James Kovacich]

I've done my research. But george was a student of the late Yuichi Kuda. It could be that he got his higher rank from Kise though he states it from the All Okinawan Shorin Ryu Karate and Kobudo Association.

Really my goal is to buid a training organization and as it grows I will be able to quit working in Silicon Valley and travel to train with my Instructors and my students full time.

George being in Tennessee and me in Ca., he fits the bill to fit into my plans as well as my other instructors. My closest instructor is George Kirby who is in L.A. and while I'm down there I plan to train with Joe Moreira too.