Should Head Shots Be Banned in Youth Competition?

[Bill Mattocks]

Maybe you're just a wimp.

Probably.

 

[Steve]

Guys, honestly, it doesn't look to me like you have actually read the editorial posted in the OP.

If you do this, I'm sure you will see that we're talking specifically about competition. In BJJ, I can think of techniques we don't train kids to use at all, because it's just too dangerous. Some we do teach them, but which are illegal in competition.

Similarly, we have some techniques we train as adults, but are not legal in IBJJF competitions at any level, such as heel hooks.

Do you guys seriously not see the distinction here between training and competition?

 

[Steve]

For my school this ban wouldn't apply. We don't kick to the head anyway because it's always a risky move to do in the world of self-defense. We still practice strikes to the head because protecting the head is a key component in self-defense. The head is the one thing that attackers almost always go for in a fight.

Based on what I've seen from youtube and schools in my area, the martial art schools that tend to have head injuries from kicks are the karate and tkd schools that encourage sparring with their hands down.

Does your school compete in karate tournaments? If not, then you're right. This ban would not apply.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would disagree.
1 - Control can be taught.
2 - They don't hit very hard - I have yet to see any research on the subject that wasn't based on adults or teens, who hit a lot harder.
Is there a risk? Sure. But while it is difficult to really quantify the risk, I don't think it is "extremely high" by any means. The risk is certainly much higher in football, for example.

1. Never said that they can't be taught control. We do this almost everyday and see how kids struggle to control their power. Throwing a strong punch is easier than controlling a strong punch. Throwing a fast punch without it being strong is even more challenging at any age.

2. 7 year olds can punch harder than people think. When I took karate at the age of 6 I could punch hard enough to bring a 9 year old to their knees from a gut shot, and did it often.

These punches are hard for a kid his age and I wouldn't want him hitting another 5 year old.

Punches and kicks only get harder when they get older so, not emphasizing control or how to correctly protect their head makes it a high risk

The risk is not so much from being hit hard, but but being hit hard and clean. When a punch or kick lands on your face unchallenged then it's going to hurt and cause injury. This is what they are looking at. Which is why they are always talking about TKD and Karate when discussing such bans.

I agree. Football has a much higher risk of head injury

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can always come by & check.

The last time y'all were there, the training focus was "x" so that's where they went. We're going to NC in February for a Sanda smoker with another school. I'm sure there will be room if you're interested. Also we'll be on the Lei Tai in March in NC & maybe in Ohio as well.

I'm dying to get there. I said that I won't spar until I get surgery done on my finger but, I'm not sure if I'm going to make it that long. I'm checking with H to see if he's Sparring this Saturday.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Does your school compete in karate tournaments? If not, then you're right. This ban would not apply.

Nope. We don't compete in karate tournaments.

 

[clfsean]

Awesome but if you have a surgical repair coming up on an injury, don't. Sorry but I'll narc you out on it. Take the time to heal properly & recover appropriately.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Guys, honestly, it doesn't look to me like you have actually read the editorial posted in the OP.

If you do this, I'm sure you will see that we're talking specifically about competition. In BJJ, I can think of techniques we don't train kids to use at all, because it's just too dangerous. Some we do teach them, but which are illegal in competition.

Similarly, we have some techniques we train as adults, but are not legal in IBJJF competitions at any level, such as heel hooks.

Do you guys seriously not see the distinction here between training and competition?

The same kicks that are done in competition are the same kicks at are done in training when sparring.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Awesome but if you have a surgical repair coming up on an injury, don't. Sorry but I'll narc you out on it. Take the time to heal properly & recover appropriately.

The finger is completely heal now. It just breaks easily. I'll come on a day you aren't there lol.

 

[Steve]

The same kicks that are done in competition are the same kicks at are done in training when sparring.

Really? That's not been my experience. MMA guys often also compete in boxing competitions, Muay Thai competitions, BJJ competitions, submission wrestling competitions, Judo competitions. When an MMA'ist competes in a BJJ competition, they don't seem to have much of a problem with hammer fisting their opponents. While that athlete may spend a lot of time training in striking, when you step onto the mat, you don't just shut down and become a mindless robot incapable of rational thought.

Once again, you seem to be failing to distinguish between a discussion around being responsible and protecting the safety of juvenile athletes in competition, and training.

Personally, I think DD has a great point. Teach the kids control. Train them, if you can do so safely. But, that is a different thing than prohibiting techniques that can be dangerous in competition. And with everything we are learning about football right now and the longer term effects of repeated blows to the head, I am all for advocating for safety in competition.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Guys, honestly, it doesn't look to me like you have actually read the editorial posted in the OP.

Of course I did. Have you ever known me to post without reading what I'm replying to?

If you do this, I'm sure you will see that we're talking specifically about competition. In BJJ, I can think of techniques we don't train kids to use at all, because it's just too dangerous. Some we do teach them, but which are illegal in competition.

And we're talking about both, since you can't use something in competition if you're not trained for it. Our students hear all the time "if you're in a tourney or practice, do it like this [demonstrate], but if you're fighting, do it like this [demonstrate more dangerous version]." A simple example is the hook kick. For sparring, we teach it as being done with the ball of the foot, spreading the impact over the entire sole of the foot and allowing the ankle flex to act as a shock absorber. For fighting, it impacts on the heel.
And there are certainly things that we do not teach to beginners. Not because they couldn't learn the technique, but because they're intended specifically to be high-lethality moves.

Do you guys seriously not see the distinction here between training and competition?

No... I had no idea there was a difference...

 

[JowGaWolf]

And we're talking about both, since you can't use something in competition if you're not trained for it.

I agree. You said it better than me. This is what what I was referring to.

No... I had no idea there was a difference...

Same here, the stuff that people do in competition is stuff that they have been practicing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Awesome but if you have a surgical repair coming up on an injury, don't. Sorry but I'll narc you out on it. Take the time to heal properly & recover appropriately.

I have cartilage inside of my pinky bone, where there should be bone and the only way to fix it, is to scoop out the cartilage and do a bone graft. So now I just have a weak pinky that breaks easily even though the break is healed. It's the last bone in my pinky finger so the breaks aren't happening in the middle of that finger. I'm hoping J will spar with H soon. H really took it to him the last time and literally laid him down like a baby, lol. But it was a good lesson to learn.

 

[Steve]

I agree. You said it better than me. This is what what I was referring to.

Same here, the stuff that people do in competition is stuff that they have been practicing.

what the heck? You guys say you understand but then say stuff like above. You're statement is accurate but irrelevant. While it is true that you can't do in competition what you dint practice, that has nothing tondo with this topic.

The relevant statement is What you do in training is not necessarily okay in competition. That's the point. It's like, all beagles are dogs but not all dogs are beagles. Right?

 

[JowGaWolf]

what the heck? You guys say you understand but then say stuff like above. You're statement is accurate but irrelevant. While it is true that you can't do in competition what you dint practice, that has nothing tondo with this topic.

The relevant statement is What you do in training is not necessarily okay in competition. That's the point. It's like, all beagles are dogs but not all dogs are beagles. Right?

You don't understand what we are saying.

 

[Steve]

You don't understand what we are saying.

Yeah. That must be it. Haha.

Alright, editing this to say I'll go back and carefully read your posts. But I will also suggest that you could maybe, just maybe, do the same and consider that yiu might be missing the point of the thread entirely.

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah. That must be it. Haha.

Alright, editing this to say I'll go back and carefully read your posts. But I will also suggest that you could maybe, just maybe, do the same and consider that yiu might be missing the point of the thread entirely.

Your getting pretty emotional here Steve lol

 

[Steve]

Okay, so I gave this entire thread, including the article linked in the OP, a little time.

Comments from DD, Jow Ga Wolf and a few others, seem to be focused around training. You guys talk about control in training, risk to training partners and sparring.

• You state that control can be taught. I agree.
• You suggest that there are ways to mitigate risk in training, such as limiting the amount of contact sparring. I agree.
• You indicate that you cannot execute techniques in competition properly if you don't train them. I agree.

All good points. I think you make a terrific case for how head kicks can be safely trained, along with a pretty solid justification for why they should be trained.

However, I don't think you are really making a case at all regarding a competitive rule set. In other words, you do not address why they should remain legal techniques in competition.

In short, I agree with most of what you guys have said. AND, I think it's a no brainer (no pun intended) that we ban head kicks in competition for kids.

 

[JowGaWolf]

However, I don't think you are really making a case at all regarding a competitive rule set. In other words, you do not address why they should remain legal techniques in competition

My opinion is that kicks to the head should only be illegal in those competitions where it is habit to fight with the hands down and not protect the head. If schools insist on not training students how to fight with hands up and not protect the head then any strike or kick to the head should be illegal. If they don't want to make it illegal then the ref should give 3 warnings to a fighter for not fighting with their hands up. After the 3rd warning it should be a DQ.

I actually remove students from sparring if they can't keep their hands up and protect their heads. We also train how to block strikes that come to the head and how to properly address and defend against kicks. I'm actually surprised that with all of the kicking that TKD does that they spar with their hands down. The kicks to the head in karate doesn't seem to be as bad as it is with TKD. I just think that maybe some of the Karate kids and adults pick up bad habits from TKD and point sparring.

 

[WaterGal]

I think it's reasonable to set limits on head contact for kids, for safety reasons. The current WTF TKD competition rules are - off the top of my head - no head contact for color belts under 12, and only light head contact for color belts under 18 or black belts under 16. Which I think is a reasonable rule set. The only times I've ever seen a minor get a concussion doing TKD sparring it was because they fell.