Kicking application

[Zero]

Happi Papi on his "weird shin kick" thread got me thinking about the different ways and subtle nuances in variation in applying ultimately the same kicking techniques.

I mentioned to HP when I use the shin kick to thigh I generally roll the striking leg in the hip socket so the edge of shin is impacting down (and not purely laterally) into the target. The thought being that more torque is generated and that extra power (and with gravity assisting) comes with a downward strike.

One of my sensei also advocated using the same reasoning and application to high/head kicks as well, be it a round house or a snap kick to side of the head/jaw. His view was that, while somewhat harder to achieve initially, the extra power of the blow generated is well worth the effort put into training the technique. While I used to execute a head kick basically with pure lateral impact, such as the knuckles of foot with a snap kick or the shin with round house coming straight into the target from a high chambered knee, or sometimes coming up into the target, he stressed that I should try to achieve just a bit of extra height and to come down into the target. I am not talking about the obvious axe-kick that sweeps up then down.

I must confess, as I have always had good results (when I get lucky) with my previous execution of head kicks, that I sometimes do this and sometimes do not in tournaments (and likewise sometimes I practice this on the heavy bag and sometimes do not).

I wanted to know how many applied this aspect to their high kicks or trained others in this way? Or had come across this line of thought?

I have analyzed quite a bit of K1 footage over the years (for various techniques) and sometimes see this used, where the kick is thrown high and then brought down in a round house, and more rarely, in a front/snap kick. Andy Hug did this quite a bit. However, the brilliant and powerful kicker Mirco Crocop does not always do so, many of his devastating head shots glance upwards and/or across his poor opponent’s pate.

I think the long and the short of it is, if you pull off a decent shin kick to your opponent’s head, they are (9 times out of 10) going down, and the extra power from a downwards blow is superfluous and just not required – although if you can do this at will and without slowing or impinging you kick, then all the better!

 

[Blindside]

My rear leg roundhouses have that same downward angle, if I am throwing at someone with my own head height, I can drop the kick downward over their shoulder and guard.

I also used the technique to good effect in point sparring off the lead leg kick, but that was fairly useless for me in heavy contact as I couldn't put much power into it.

 

[Argus]

While I don't train in a style that uses round kicks / attacks, and therefore probably don't know what I'm talking about, I have to wonder how a downward angle helps generate power.

Here's a simple example. Hit a board square on, and most of the energy has to be transferred into the board. Hit a board at an angle, and some of the energy is redirected and slides off.

Also, it seems that with a downward action, you have only your own body weight, and not the support of the ground behind your strike. But maybe this isn't so important with round attacks? Is it all about momentum?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In Muay Thai I was taught this as a variation on the high round kick. Using that slight downwards arc you actually target the neck rather than the head. I can't claim that I ever got very good at it, but I've seen it used in fights. It seems that you sacrifice a little bit of speed compared to a more direct kick but gain a little more knockout power if it lands. You do need some good hip flexibility to execute it correctly.

Argus - it's all about angular momentum. Believe me, someone who is good at this style of kicking can generate a lot of power.

 

[Zero]

In Muay Thai I was taught this as a variation on the high round kick. Using that slight downwards arc you actually target the neck rather than the head. I can't claim that I ever got very good at it, but I've seen it used in fights. It seems that you sacrifice a little bit of speed compared to a more direct kick but gain a little more knockout power if it lands. You do need some good hip flexibility to execute it correctly.

Argus - it's all about angular momentum. Believe me, someone who is good at this style of kicking can generate a lot of power.

Argus, as Tony says (oops, I see I have grabbed Tony's quote), it is all about the downward momentum. And you can actually also whip this kick as it is coming downwards into the target (this is hard to explain, at least for me). Personally having experimented I do not think there is any loss of power, if any, it is multiplied somewhat. I am one who likes to "test to believe" but in addition my sensei who showed me and advocated this was a multiple national title holder and a hell of a good fighter so I have no reason to doubt his thoughts on this. I don't know if this is good at all for a comparison - but may be helpful for someone who does more punching rather than high kicks (if that is you) - but take an arching overhead windmill fist for example and how devastating this can be if it connects (kind of like the one "Tiny Mo" had as his signature a whiles back). You don't loose any power on its downward tragectory, in fact you gain through the motion/momentum and gravity.

There are two schools of thought on basics of kicking (actually, that is a bald faced lie : ) there are more than two schools!). Some state you need to be firmly "rooted" to the ground with your support foot to generate power. Those that leave it at this (and there are more than a few I have come across over the years) I strongly feel are not a kick focused art, or have not taken the time to unlock the mechanics involved and are missing the details. Those who say you generate power from "pushing through and up" from the ground with your support foot while your striking leg is chambering are more correct and this is how you generate extra knock-out power. (Different but also similair to how a devastating uppercut comes from the quads generating upwards power). Even when just pivoting on the ball of your foot, this applies, so I do not like this "rooted" talk when it comes to kicks.


You have wound up and generated the speed in the upward motion of the kick and now you are simply bringing this rolling over and whipping downwards into the target if you choose to use this particular variation, as Tony has well described it. The power is there as much for the rear leg round house as for a front snap kick to side of head. You are not glancing off the surface (as your analogy to board breaking) you are driving cleanly into the target from a downwards angle, be it with the large front knuckles of the foot or the shin. In fact (I think?!) often times more damage can be done to the human anotomy from (correctly applied - ie not "slipping/glancing") angular stirkes than pure side on/lateral damage. For example, punching straight on and into an opponent with very strong abdominals may not render much of a result at all, even with several blows. However, if you don't fight the muscles at their strongest point and strike downwards into the abdominals (and then upwards if you are able) you bypass a lot of the muscles' integrity and can result in internal damage or at least badly winding the guy, no matter how conditioned his abs are.

I don't mean this post to be at all patronising, from your comments was not sure how much your style uses kicks or high kicks and I hope the above is of some help (and has not made things less clear).

 

[Happy-Papi]

I think the long and the short of it is, if you pull off a decent shin kick to your opponent’s head, they are (9 times out of 10) going down, and the extra power from a downwards blow is superfluous and just not required – although if you can do this at will and without slowing or impinging you kick, then all the better!

I do believe this and basing it on the whip-like shin kicks that I have received from my son, I can say that if I get hit on my neck I will surely collapse. Even when he hits my inner or outer thigh I often use my seniority and get a time out or I will drop, hahaha!

One technique that I think looks cool is his weird roundhouse kick which is very similar to a jumping roundhouse but without the jump. He just raises his leg high then twist and drops his shin like a whip. I don't know how he does it but it may be because of his flexibility and proper timing. Another time when I delivered a kick, he countered it and caught my leg in the air using a circular in-out kick then immediately shifted and delivered this weird lower shin kick on my shoulder and it was painful and again electricity was running inside my arm for minutes.

I like grabbing kicks a lot but sometimes I find it a bit hard to grab this kind of high kicks because of the whip-like movement and it looks deceiving plus I have bad eyesight... With normal high kicks we can easily see the leg movement but when the leg moves like a crazy whip, my simple brain sometimes cannot anticipate the right timing to grab plus the fear factor stored in my brain than if that kick lands on me, it surely will be painful. Another thing I noticed is that he likes doing it to me at a very close range especially when he is grabbing my shirt or we are just about to grapple. Sounds weird but he can do it and I can't, lol!

I do think that if a practitioner can be good with this weird shin technique (looks weird to me...) it will give the practitioner a an extra fighting edge. I wish to learn it but I am not that flexible anymore and my timing sucks