Shotokan for self defence.

[ShotoNoob]

...How to neutralize a grappler and makes him thinks twice when he attempts to grab you with a single knee strike:

youtube #1
(its on MMA so might be the supreme truth)

We can go on with another example now of grappler vs grappler, from your view that guy now must be rich when he trashed all the grappling art with his sole move:

youtube#2

But nope, no fame or easy money, he got bashed by all the BJJ community this was in my city and the other boy just lost all of his legs and arms movement. Bad way to make a profit i would say.

youtube#3

Thats enough rite Hanzou? Hard to believe? Maybe valid for you only if it was in MMA? Unreal or is you that are just unable to perform this IRL? Have you ever tried at least hitting the plexus in SD? Coz i did. The boy was lucky coz it was not near a punch with full force, it were just for the matter of obtaining ippon. Those gloves of kumite doesnt allow the fingers to make shihon nukite in pefect alignement but if he reached the opponent throat with that punch what will holding him to reach this same throat with his fingers wich will offer a little more range bare handed? Just nothing....

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Youtube #1 & #3, the traditional karate means of dealing with an assault. The business about strikers not being prepared for grapplers omits the traditional karate approach to grappler attacks demonstrated in BOTH of these YT vids.
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I know grappling is popular here; nonetheless, the conventional striking training adopted by many here @ MT is susceptible to grapple-rs while those training traditional karate principles taught starting in kihon tehcnique inc. taikyoku kata, will be prepared for grapplers IN PRINCIPLE, as demonstrated in the 2 YT vids I cited....
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As for YT vid #2, why traditional karate never wants to go to the ground. Although a grappling defense was put forth that stymied the winning opponent for some time, the defeated/injured grapple r wasted time & kept himself at risk which proved fatal. Why I don't train BJJ.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Shutoken, the knife hands, its a basic tech like rtkdcmb told. We first learn in karate as shuto uke, a defensive strike in heian shodan. All shotokan ukes/blocks are also strikes like shotonoob have stated here in before. In my view its a kind of active/agressive block instead of the more passive/defensive boxer blocks.

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Nice job on the vid / narrated post(s). Note, I personally, really don't use blocks as strikes. Obviously bunkai authorities do advocate the blocks as strikes, or alternatively, the kihon form of a block is really a striking tactic in disguise or in actual use or application.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

...I know grappling is popular here; nonetheless, the conventional striking training adopted by many here @ MT is susceptible to grapple-rs while those training traditional karate principles taught starting in kihon tehcnique inc. taikyoku kata, will be prepared for grapplers IN PRINCIPLE, as demonstrated in the 2 YT vids I cited....

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Adding to my reply, about traditional karate principles. Such include targeting vulnerable parts of the human anatomy via trauma (recognized by the Matt Thorton proponents), OR, pressure points which have some metabolic disruptive effect upon contact (not recognized by the Matt Thorton's).
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The YT vids cited demonstrate the potential for both of the effects which I stated above in principle.
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Traditional karate naysayers, good luck with that.....

 

[Hanzou]

If i have the opportunity to make a video footage of this same kind of training session i described you and got permission of my training partner ill share here on this very forum for everyone. That way maybe proving that i can hit the neck/eyes/face/throat with the techniques i told in those mounts and a few others will drag this from mysticism to reality and ill be glad.

Please do. I don't know why you posted vids of MMA fights, Bjj competitions, or you punching someone in the solar plexus during practice when the subject in question is your ludicrous belief that you can stop grappling from an inferior position with neck jabs.

 

[DaveB]

Please do. I don't know why you posted vids of MMA fights, Bjj competitions, or you punching someone in the solar plexus during practice when the subject in question is your ludicrous belief that you can stop grappling from an inferior position with neck jabs.

Hello Hanzou,

I don't think it would be easy, but I'm pretty certain that a crushed wind pipe will stop most fights whether grappling or standing. After all, that is what the chokes are attempting.

Is your objection based on the position or the strike it's self? I can see it being hard to achieve the necessary power from an inferior position and realistically you'd need to know some grappling to be able to avoid being choked or submitted before you got the chance to try. Still I think it's probably possible.

 

[Hanzou]

Hello Hanzou,

I don't think it would be easy, but I'm pretty certain that a crushed wind pipe will stop most fights whether grappling or standing. After all, that is what the chokes are attempting.

Is your objection based on the position or the strike it's self? I can see it being hard to achieve the necessary power from an inferior position and realistically you'd need to know some grappling to be able to avoid being choked or submitted before you got the chance to try. Still I think it's probably possible.

Yes, my objection is based on him being able to strike someone in the neck while they're sitting on top of him. He also stated that he performed this on a competent Bjj black belt.

 

[ShotoNoob]

...As I have a Shotokan background I thought I'd give my two cents. I hope I'm not too far out of sync from the discussion.

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Why would you say that...?

Basically what determines effectiveness in any environment is the quality and appropriateness of your training for that environment. Most people seem to accept this well enough. Where I think people get a bit confused is in linking training to specific styles.

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Ah, I'd say you have an advanced self-defense teaching agenda.

Training is independent of fighting style.

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This is way too general. I'm sure your opinion is appealing to the vast majority of visitors to MT. To me, it reflects a lack of understanding of the traditional martial arts, Shotokan karate in particular....

Think about it. Is there a style that owns press-ups? How about jogging? Want to be more specific to MA, then what about sparring? Pad work?

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You sound like the Matt Thorton camp, every thing in Martial arts is an athletic exercise.

When I tried Muay Thai classes I found that there was not one training exercise they did that I had not done in karate first.

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By technique, I was never taught low kicks in any traditional karate school. By form, i was never taught the extreme MT carry through of putting body momentum & rotation into kicks.
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The rest of your post, I can attest to.
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Traditional martial arts, here Shotokan, affords a caliber of training MT, BJJ do not. HOwever unpopular this belief among martial art convention, that's the way it is.

 

[ShotoNoob]

...When I tried Muay Thai classes I found that there was not one training exercise they did that I had not done in karate first.

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Well of course there's disagreement. It shows when there is not 1 conceptual response to my commentary on Rafa's YT vid posts.
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All the surrounding commentary is on general qualities of self defense training, comparison of PHYSICAL technique. Which is relevant & OK.

Usually it doesn't and that means it is up to you to find what is missing and correct it.

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But the above doesn't begin to define SHOTOKAN KARATE. how prophetic your final statement! Good luck with that, karate-wise.

 

[DaveB]

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This is way too general. I'm sure your opinion is appealing to the vast majority of visitors to MT. To me, it reflects a lack of understanding of the traditional martial arts, Shotokan karate in particular....

That’s a pretty bold statement, please explain what it is that I don't understand about traditional martial arts?

You sound like the Matt Thorton camp, every thing in Martial arts is an athletic exercise.

Most things are. Certainly the vast majority of training is. Your next paragraph states you weren't taught various Thai techniques, but my post was about training i.e. skill development methods. Technique is a definite style dependent component of MA.

Traditional martial arts, here Shotokan, affords a caliber of training MT, BJJ do not. HOwever unpopular this belief among martial art convention, that's the way it is.

And I was being too general?

Training is dependent on the knowledge, experience and teaching ability of the instructor not to mention the goal of the student.

Unless that whole postvwas a joke and I've just misread your tone. If so, good one!

BTW I hit disagree by accident, but I think I'll leave it unless otherwise enlightened.

 

[RafaChan]

Please do. I don't know why you posted vids of MMA fights, Bjj competitions, or you punching someone in the solar plexus during practice when the subject in question is your ludicrous belief that you can stop grappling from an inferior position with neck jabs.

Dont get me wrong. When earlier you said to me this:

So basically what you're saying is that the entire art of grappling can be countered with neck strikes?

The purpose of those first videos was to show you that is possible to neutralize/counter a competent grappler with sole and quite simple yet devastating moves. Is counter grappling techs here some sort of taboo?

Later you told:

Do we have any examples of a fighter winning a match with a finger or knuckle jab to the throat?

And i have posted a vid from a kumite karate KO showing you that possibilitie (with standed fighters) despite your desbielefs. Again, rare doesnt mean unexistant.

Now lets move to the inferior position possibilitie that i claimed itspossible to stop a grappler and also said that was part of a specific training session that i had not so long ago.
I raised the possibilitie, i made the claim so i agree thats up to me to prove it being possible. Like you in your place, the doubt its valid. You need the proof i know that i have zero credibility here and i also know thats hard to prove something that involves a lot more dynamic that i can put in words here.

Im entering in enemy territory, im not saying thats easy just possible/achieavable. Will be easier for me to neutralize a grappler from a standed position as a striker. Chances will drastically reduce if im mounted coz depending of the mounts im i will pretty much have most movements of my art neutralized from the position but still, not completely out of options as i described earlier. Can use some tools. When in enemy territory (ground-mounted) better not only know yourself but to also know your enemy. Thats why i said:

Ofc knowing to counter a grab to freeing an arm/hand its mandatory for that so i would not say purely a strike to the neck alone will counter the whole world of ju-jutsu as i will use a small part of the art to counter that same said art.

Now lets clarify the tools i used atm when you say "...the subject in question is your ludicrous belief that you can stop grappling from an inferior position with neck jabs."

Neck jabs or any sort of punches when being mounted will loose a lot of potential when you are down there while your hips cant turn properly to strike so lets see what i have did/told:

Punches from the ground when we are being mounted are not effective coz we cant turn our hips properly to give the punch any expressive power. Its completely uselles to punch when you are not up there mounting and punching with gravity force added. From down there and with such short range and small space you only rely on your fingers and fore knuckle blows on the soft spots when you think of strikes.

Ok. Now we have set whats ''neck jabs'' in the context of this drilling wich was with a non compliant opponent btw. Ofc karate can give me a nice array of strikes to delivery while in the short range mounted position with my fingers and fore knuckes in attempt to crush a throat. Add to that: moving these open hand strikes in various angles to better pierce tru defenses according to the techs such as shihon, tate and omote nukite for example. For the fore knucke ones while mounted that i have used more in the drilling we could go with hiraken and ipponken.

So what will be the conditions that we have to met for a quality and trustable material ? The ones accordingly to what i described such as use of at least cervical colar as protective gear so we can start. Will not be me to make a MA video footage of someone having their throat crushed and expecting to sell/prove that to some demandfull audience. If i manage to hit the cervical colar in the soft spot throat position will have to be considered ippon.

If we have those terms as agreement while achieving all other conditions ill try to reproduce that what i said and put on video exactly like i claimed including the competent opponent part:

When he dropped me to the ground (most of the times mounted on me) i used ippon ken at his neck coz its a short range strike and i have hitted manny times his neck. He is a competent jiu-jitsu fighter he knew that he had to defend his neck but his training conditioning was almost to defend from arm bents and locks he wouldnt expect several ippon ken and hiraken hits at his neck while i forced my way out to a ground and pound.

The particular coleague that i told. A competent BJJ BB one for sure. The guy who defeated almost 20 BJJ practitioners of my former platoon in sucession one before the other following BJJ competition rules and later was the winner of our batallion BJJ contest. I cant talk now about what he achieved as recognition tru sport as i didnt know those details but he have qualitie. All that info that i told can be verified accordingly to the forum rules. That said feat was not recorded as we have detrimental rules about video taping inside headquarter formation course, but it can be verified as this guy its actually the main BJJ instructor/reference of the corps in my state and with everyone of the platoon that saw it.

But does not expect a rush. We both live/work now in different cities and lost big part of contact since we left formation course and got to duty so ill have to schedule a meeting in the near future, besides i have a big list of priorities in the moment. But i can assure you that ill be looking for that, no problem.

So its challenge accepted from my part. Just wanna know if you can make millions of dollars with that like you said. Give me half of a million and ill be happy. But i doubt you by that btw.

But yes, some video footage would be most helpful. Frankly if you pulled this off, you're wasting your time on this forum. You should be out there selling your videos to people, because you would literally be making millions of dollars.

 

[RafaChan]

Shoto, lets recall this:

All shotokan ukes/blocks are also strikes like shotonoob have stated here in before. In my view its a kind of active/agressive block instead of the more passive/defensive boxer blocks.

Note, I personally, really don't use blocks as strikes. Obviously bunkai authorities do advocate the blocks as strikes, or alternatively, the kihon form of a block is really a striking tactic in disguise or in actual use or application.....

While i think that its not for everyone to use for example guedan barai (a hard block), to defend/strike a kick, coz most could get their hands or arms kinda injured depending of whos defending and whos kicking (not saying thats your case). I personally prefer and do use in conjunction some hard blocks after a soft (defensive) block for counter attacks in particular cases. Not just the hard block by itself. If you have the timing and distance control always let the soft block first connect (like you said changing/avoiding an attack route) and then punish with a direct attack or a hard block.

A very solid uke hard and soft combo that worked for me a lot in kumite, SD and free spar its the use of a soft (be like water concept) block like osae uke in conjunction-followed by a hard (disguised as attack) block, in that case shuto uke. A good defensive strategie when you have to use/adopt a solid counter attack position/response (again it depends of who your are facing). Use that against agressive attackers with caution being able to switch to a more agressive response/stance when needed (kokutsu to zenkutsu/moto).

To make justice of my earlier illustration about that matter ill use that authoritie video ive found to illustrate that movement/strategie in a more karateka way (more next of the stuff i do):

My criticism/observation about him on that video its the almost absence of kime when he performs shuto uke on the demo. Something ideal for me IMHO regarding best way to achieve strong kime will be something like this:

The fast hip rotation, hands positioning along strong hikite that i havent seen Ian's doing. Maybe he was relaxed coz it was just a demo but for me even for a demo the right way should be in pursue of the right kime. Not only skill, strenght and breathing but hitting/rotating with intention and mechanically transfering a big part of the entire body movement to the shuto strike.

The whole point of that post of mine its if you, as a true traditional karate seeker/practiotioner that i have noted, havent developed yet at least till now a one single strategie to apply a hard block/strike after you applied your soft block you, are just missing one of a big and tastefull cherry above our true karate cake.

Peace !

 

[Hanzou]

Dont get me wrong. When earlier you said to me this:



The purpose of those first videos was to show you that is possible to neutralize/counter a competent grappler with sole and quite simple yet devastating moves. Is counter grappling techs here some sort of taboo?

Later you told:



And i have posted a vid from a kumite karate KO showing you that possibilitie (with standed fighters) despite your desbielefs. Again, rare doesnt mean unexistant.

Now lets move to the inferior position possibilitie that i claimed itspossible to stop a grappler and also said that was part of a specific training session that i had not so long ago.
I raised the possibilitie, i made the claim so i agree thats up to me to prove it being possible. Like you in your place, the doubt its valid. You need the proof i know that i have zero credibility here and i also know thats hard to prove something that involves a lot more dynamic that i can put in words here.

Im entering in enemy territory, im not saying thats easy just possible/achieavable. Will be easier for me to neutralize a grappler from a standed position as a striker. Chances will drastically reduce if im mounted coz depending of the mounts im i will pretty much have most movements of my art neutralized from the position but still, not completely out of options as i described earlier. Can use some tools. When in enemy territory (ground-mounted) better not only know yourself but to also know your enemy. Thats why i said:



Now lets clarify the tools i used atm when you say "...the subject in question is your ludicrous belief that you can stop grappling from an inferior position with neck jabs."

Neck jabs or any sort of punches when being mounted will loose a lot of potential when you are down there while your hips cant turn properly to strike so lets see what i have did/told:



Ok. Now we have set whats ''neck jabs'' in the context of this drilling wich was with a non compliant opponent btw. Ofc karate can give me a nice array of strikes to delivery while in the short range mounted position with my fingers and fore knuckes in attempt to crush a throat. Add to that: moving these open hand strikes in various angles to better pierce tru defenses according to the techs such as shihon, tate and omote nukite for example. For the fore knucke ones while mounted that i have used more in the drilling we could go with hiraken and ipponken.

So what will be the conditions that we have to met for a quality and trustable material ? The ones accordingly to what i described such as use of at least cervical colar as protective gear so we can start. Will not be me to make a MA video footage of someone having their throat crushed and expecting to sell/prove that to some demandfull audience. If i manage to hit the cervical colar in the soft spot throat position will have to be considered ippon.

If we have those terms as agreement while achieving all other conditions ill try to reproduce that what i said and put on video exactly like i claimed including the competent opponent part:



The particular coleague that i told. A competent BJJ BB one for sure. The guy who defeated almost 20 BJJ practitioners of my former platoon in sucession one before the other following BJJ competition rules and later was the winner of our batallion BJJ contest. I cant talk now about what he achieved as recognition tru sport as i didnt know those details but he have qualitie. All that info that i told can be verified accordingly to the forum rules. That said feat was not recorded as we have detrimental rules about video taping inside headquarter formation course, but it can be verified as this guy its actually the main BJJ instructor/reference of the corps in my state and with everyone of the platoon that saw it.

But does not expect a rush. We both live/work now in different cities and lost big part of contact since we left formation course and got to duty so ill have to schedule a meeting in the near future, besides i have a big list of priorities in the moment. But i can assure you that ill be looking for that, no problem.

So its challenge accepted from my part. Just wanna know if you can make millions of dollars with that like you said. Give me half of a million and ill be happy. But i doubt you by that btw.

All you need to do is neutralize a competent Bjj black belt with neck jabs, and you'll be golden.

I would recommend issuing a challenge to Bjj black belts saying you can do this. You should get plenty of volunteers to come down and try it out for themselves. If you can pull this off, you'll not only put shotokan on the map, but you'll also make bucketloads of money.

 

[ShotoNoob]

That’s a pretty bold statement, please explain what it is that I don't understand about traditional martial arts?

Please see my reply below for two examples....

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By technique, I was never taught low kicks in any traditional karate school. By form, i was never taught the extreme MT carry through of putting body momentum & rotation into kicks.

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There's a technique example. There's a body mechanic example, also implied KIME.

Most things are. Certainly the vast majority of training is. Your next paragraph states you weren't taught various Thai techniques, but my post was about training i.e. skill development methods. Technique is a definite style dependent component of MA.

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On the physicality, you have come to a conclusion that is contrary to the express foundation of all the traditional karate's. And what's more, you have lots of company.
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IMO, on of the great aspects of Shotokan's appeal to many is it's heavy physicality. Too many, however, become fixated on the physical dimension of Shotokan karate practice which later translates into failure @ traditional karate....

And I was being too general?
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Training is dependent on the knowledge, experience and teaching ability of the instructor not to mention the goal of the student.

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I would define these attributes as part of the educational process, rather than martial arts per se. All sound of course. So agree would be the 'right button' here for me too.

Unless that whole postvwas a joke and I've just misread your tone. If so, good one!

BTW I hit disagree by accident, but I think I'll leave it unless otherwise enlightened.

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I written oodles here about the mental dimension of traditional martial arts / karate. Been buzzed a few times for it. But that's where I live....
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EDIT: Concur with you on the general descriptive learning process you summarized.... How traditional karate vs. Muay Thai train the person internally, I see vast difference....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Shoto, lets recall this:
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While i think that its not for everyone to use for example guedan barai (a hard block), to defend/strike a kick, coz most could get their hands or arms kinda injured depending of whos defending and whos kicking (not saying thats your case). I personally prefer and do use in conjunction some hard blocks after a soft (defensive) block for counter attacks in particular cases. Not just the hard block by itself. If you have the timing and distance control always let the soft block first connect (like you said changing/avoiding an attack route) and then punish with a direct attack or a hard block.
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Peace !

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I cut down your extensive quote. Something like that takes a lot of study. As one moves to what I call advanced karate, your post presents well how dynamic bunkai can be.
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To me, a block is defensive, along the lines of kihon theory. My extension of kihon theory in the case of your bunkai posts is then that the knifehand is no longer a block; it's in reality a strike.
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In the black-belt level programs, knifehands are typically taught as blocks. However, in the 1-steps and self defense applications presented, knifehands are employed in striking as well.
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In summary, the traditional karate curriculum in its entirety is very broad & detailed, offering lots of techniques & alternative tactics. Again, why KIME developmet is so important over the conventional boxing mantra of 'fast jab, strong right cross.' The reliance of Shotokan kumite competitors on the sport model of having a single or two athletic tactic is traditional karate failure....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Shoto, lets recall this:

My criticism/observation about him on that video its the almost absence of kime when he performs shuto uke on the demo. Something ideal for me IMHO regarding best way to achieve strong kime will be something like this:

The fast hip rotation, hands positioning along strong hikite that i havent seen Ian's doing. Maybe he was relaxed coz it was just a demo but for me even for a demo the right way should be in pursue of the right kime. Not only skill, strenght and breathing but hitting/rotating with intention and mechanically transfering a big part of the entire body movement to the shuto strike....
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Peace !

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I returned to comment on the critical issue you've highlighted. The reason I don't dwell on bunkai is the very reason in your criticism. The body mechanics / your kime presented in the 2nd YT vid is now where we should be going.
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I don't buy all of the Shotokan body mechanics. Yet here is what I love about Shotokan. the instructor makes plain in this vid that the body works as a coordinated unit which then extends strength into the technique for power. He talkes about how the power comes from the 'core,' not isolated or emphasized in the extremities....
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How KIME or what dynamic of KIME that is powering his move is the most fundamental & essential question.
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If those wishing to use karate successfully would only take a step back from the overt physicality and delve into traditional Shotokan as demonstrated by this instructor, we'd see traditional karate fighters wiping out conventional MMA.
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Good luck with that....

 

[ShotoNoob]

The vid above excels at demonstrating how traditional kihon karate develops strength internally & externally in a mentally disciplined way. Excessive body mobility, motion, over-extension, etc. are avoided.... The defensive blocking technique prepares & blends seamlessly into the counter strike.
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This is not boxing body mechanics. This is an internally generated process... a mental discipline....
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EDIT: Mobility is accomplished by transitioning between stances.... For the anti=grappling aficionados this has wide sweeping ramifications if you understand karate principles....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Also notice the traditional form of the knife hand block ends strongly with the arms and body positioned in a tactically advantageous guard. The arms are well prepared to act into kihon blocks if need be, against most zones of attack. Of course this requires KIME of the kind we rarely see in karate competition kumite. Yet same is expressly taught, in principle, by traditional kihon technique from Day 1.
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Best of luck with that....

 

[DaveB]

On the physicality, you have come to a conclusion that is contrary to the express foundation of all the traditional karate's. And what's more, you have lots of company.
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IMO, on of the great aspects of Shotokan's appeal to many is it's heavy physicality. Too many, however, become fixated on the physical dimension of Shotokan karate practice which later translates into failure @ traditional karate....

I written oodles here about the mental dimension of traditional martial arts / karate.

I only spotted the one "example" above, of my apparent lack of understanding. I would love to hear more about this mental dimension to traditional karate that I am missing? Just saying it's there doesn't really give any weight to your assertion.

Also if example two is forthcoming perhaps a little elaboration might make it easier to understand.

 

[DaveB]

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EDIT: Mobility is accomplished by transitioning between stances.... For the anti=grappling aficionados this has wide sweeping ramifications if you understand karate principles....

Shoto, "principles" is a very common term for karateka. What do you understand by the term and what principles are you referring to for help with anti-grappling?

 

[chris66]

IMO - All forms of martial arts can be good for self defense, if the teacher is good and he or she keeps it real.