Shotokan for self defence.

[Drose427]

I think it was the validity of forms is backed up by bunkai.

I haven't really ever seen bunkai trained in alive enough manner to satisfy me. Not in the same way that you could equate sparring to.

Contested,unpredictable,contact. Those sorts of things.

The closest I have seen to the description of an alive contact bunkai would be a kickboxing Dutch drill. Which is of course not bunkai and does not stem from kata. And is still a drill to a certain extent. It plays its part but is not an alive test.

It isn't too difficult to find a school practicing bunkai like that, that's how we do it at our school

Beginners do only one step at full speed well within range of getting hurt,
Then as they get used to that they start doing them on an opponent attacking in more of a boxing style, and having their partner come at them with a certain technique.

Bunkai Practice is Drilling,

Just like the kind you'd do in an MMA gym,

But it isn't sparring

 

[Drose427]

I have trained in form all my life and I agree with you. You can only use form training to "polish" your combat skill. You cannot use it to "develop" your combat skill.

Which is why forms have to be a part of other exercises and methods

Its just like shadow sparring in boxing

 

[Laplace_demon]

The 'which' was ambiguous.

Every instance of violence I have personally experienced has gone beyond the first hit. Way beyond.

I am talking about World Class Shotokan Karatekas. That's their objective. One strike - maximum explosiveness, minimal effort and movement. You didn't happen to fight one of those, did you?

Kind of like this:

 

[Gnarlie]

I didn't know "instead of continious sparring,.", was ambigious.... At any event, it will not be continious sparring on the street, and that includes between boxers with no gloves. One will go down and the rest is technical. There will not be two guys bouncing around on the street either. JKA allows punches and kicks to the head and body.

I am talking about World Class Shotokan Karatekas. That's their objective. One strike - maximum explosiveness, minimal effort and movement. You didn't happen to fight one of those, did you?

Kind of like this:

That is a far cry from how real violence works, and relying on a single hit to end a confrontation would be folly.

 

[Drose427]

I am talking about World Class Shotokan Karatekas. That's their objective. One strike - maximum explosiveness, minimal effort and movement. You didn't happen to fight one of those, did you?

Kind of like this:

......did you even watch the video? Most of the guys keep attacking till the guy starts to drop or the ref has them stop....

 

[Hanzou]

The article also says they are only one method.

The article is titled "For self defense, there's no art better than Shotokan". Then it goes on to say that Shotokan practitioners get the majority of self defense training from forms. People who disagree are simply "beginners".

 

[Hanzou]

I have trained in form all my life and I agree with you. You can only use form training to "polish" your combat skill. You cannot use it to "develop" your combat skill.

Thanks. I'm glad someone is getting the gist of what i'm saying.

 

[Drose427]

The article is titled "For self defense, there's no art better than Shotokan". Then it goes on to say that Shotokan practitioners get the majority of self defense training from forms. People who disagree are simply "beginners".

And the Gracie's made up statistics to propagandize their style

And no the article says most students take SD techs from forms. Which they do, and then drill them on a non compliant partner. Which is the point of forms. This is what youve never understood.

And no, the author didn't say anyone who disagreed was a beginner. He said most beginners don't see the connection between practicing forms and then drilling bunkai.

Proper form training is literally the same thing as learning a boxing combination, then mixing shadow boxing as individual practice with sparring with a partner.

 

[Laplace_demon]

......did you even watch the video? Most of the guys keep attacking till the guy starts to drop or the ref has them stop....

That's what they strive for. Not everbody can achieve it. Everyhing flashy is concidered waisteful energy. Conservation is key. Interesting philosophy. Hard to master.

 

[Drose427]

That's what they strive for. Not everbody can achieve it. Everyhing flashy is concidered waisteful energy. Conservation is key. Interesting philosophy. Hard to master.

And nearly every boxer is aiming to hit the button or common KO spots to end it in the first round.

But they strike until they get it.

As does shotokan,

Acting like trying to end the fight in a move or two is bad because its shotokan, when its also a mindset found in Boxing/Kick boxing/MMA, it just ignorant

 

[drop bear]

And nearly every boxer is aiming to hit the button or common KO spots to end it in the first round.

But they strike until they get it.

As does shotokan,

Acting like trying to end the fight in a move or two is bad because its shotokan, when its also a mindset found in Boxing/Kick boxing/MMA, it just ignorant

Punches in bunches seems like a different mindset to one hit one kill.

 

[Laplace_demon]

And nearly every boxer is aiming to hit the button or common KO spots to end it in the first round.

But they strike until they get it.

As does shotokan,

Acting like trying to end the fight in a move or two is bad because its shotokan, when its also a mindset found in Boxing/Kick boxing/MMA, it just ignorant

Boxers don't hit the same. They use more of their body and telegraph more. I just trained Makiwara with my dad and he achieves 99% of his power by speed and last second increase, also tightening the fist. He was chocked how explosive I could hit it (I have been out of the martial arts world for many years) after just my second try, and said he had to come watch me train TKD. This is a guy whos' coach in the National Team in JKA was Ilija Jorga. I really don't want him there because of the pressure.....

 

[Drose427]

Punches in bunches seems like a different mindset to one hit one kill.

The one hiy one kill principle is better explained as targeting the Vital Spots.

Liver shots, kidneys, button on chin, nerve in jaw, etc. But the "keep attacking till they're down" is also taught pretty heavily.

Basically, THERE IS NO MERCY IN THIS DOJO.

Boxers don't hit the same. They use more of their body and telegraph more. I just trained Makiwara with my dad and he achieves 99% of his power by speed and last second increase, also tightening the fist. He was chocked how explosive I could hit it (I have been out of the martial arts world for many years) after just my second try, and said he had to come watch me train TKD. This is a guy whos' coach in the National Team in JKA was Ilija Jorga. I really don't want him there because of the pressure.....

If your dad is getting 99% of his power from sheer speed instead of using waist and other concepts Funakoshi laid out for Shotokan, that's his fault, not shotokan.

Anyways, I used boxing to nullify your point about I'll kyuk. You can argue differences in technique with yourselves all day if you want. It has nothing to do with the point I made

 

[Hanzou]

And the Gracie's made up statistics to propagandize their style

They proved the effectiveness of their style to all doubters by having open challenge matches, culminating in the first UFC. That's what propagandized their style, not boasts of being undefeated in X amount of street fights.

I would love to see a traditionally trained karateka like the OP enter a NHB competition and take on all comers. However, we both know that's never going to happen for whatever reason.

Proper form training is literally the same thing as learning a boxing combination, then mixing shadow boxing as individual practice with sparring with a partner.

The difference between a boxer shadowboxing and a karateka doing forms is that the boxer is using the same techniques you'd see in the ring. Karateka doing a form, and karateka sparring is like night and day. It literally looks like two entirely different martial arts.

 

[Drose427]

They proved the effectiveness of their style to all doubters by having open challenge matches, culminating in the first UFC. That's what propagandized their style, not boasts of being undefeated in X amount of street fights.

I would love to see a traditionally trained karateka like the OP enter a NHB competition and take on all comers. However, we both know that's never going to happen for whatever reason.



The difference between a boxer shadowboxing and a karateka doing forms is that the boxer is using the same techniques you'd see in the ring. Karateka doing a form, and karateka sparring is like night and day. It literally looks like two entirely different martial arts.

Claims are claims

They also stopped competing when people started cross training and when strikers learned to counter BJJ(as no one had seen it before) they weren't nearly as dominate.

Several Traditionally trained Karatekas have been successful in MMA(after having more grappling training yes)

Even more have been majorly successful in kick boxing without much real tweaking to their style.

And because half the techniques in forms are illegal in sparring......elbows, knees, throws in many comps, gouges, etc.

But not in Bunkai Training or SD, where you will see Karateka Fight like in forms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The difference between a boxer shadowboxing and a karateka doing forms is that the boxer is using the same techniques you'd see in the ring. Karateka doing a form, and karateka sparring is like night and day. It literally looks like two entirely different martial arts.

If you have "partner drills", you will have "solo drills" when partner is not available. If you link your "solo drills" together, you will have "solo training" and it will look just like you are fighting. Unfortunately, most of the forms were not created this way. Why spend time in traditional forms training if you can get much better result from the "solo training" that you have created for yourself?

 

[Hanzou]

Claims are claims

Yeah, but it wasn't the claims that made the style popular, it was the Gracies stepping up to the plate, putting it all on the line, and choking people out.

They also stopped competing when people started cross training and when strikers learned to counter BJJ(as no one had seen it before) they weren't nearly as dominate.

Not necessarily. The older Gracies continued to compete long after they stopped competing in the UFC. Rickson, Royce and Renzo fought a lot in Japan and other NHB events. The younger Gracies tend to compete in Bjj-only competitions, and both groups actively train MMA fighters, since MMA fighters still train at Bjj gyms to enhance their grappling.

I don't really see how we ended up talking about the Gracies, but whatever.

Several Traditionally trained Karatekas have been successful in MMA(after having more grappling training yes)

Which isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about someone like the author of the article in the OP showing us what pure karate can do against another trained fighter. Those MMA fighters have cross-trained heavily in Bjj, Wrestling, Muay Thai, etc. They would laugh at what that article says.

And because half the techniques in forms are illegal in sparring......elbows, knees, throws in many comps, gouges, etc.

So how come MMA fighters can practice those exact same movements in relative safety?

But not in Bunkai Training or SD, where you will see Karateka Fight like in forms.

Nice doge. Again, a shadowboxer is doing pretty much exactly the same thing you'd see a boxer do in a ring. A karateka doing a kata looks nothing like a karateka sparring. You made the comparison, now feel free to explain this bizarre discrepancy.

 

[Steve]

Claims are claims

They also stopped competing when people started cross training and when strikers learned to counter BJJ(as no one had seen it before) they weren't nearly as dominate.

Several Traditionally trained Karatekas have been successful in MMA(after having more grappling training yes)

Even more have been majorly successful in kick boxing without much real tweaking to their style.

And because half the techniques in forms are illegal in sparring......elbows, knees, throws in many comps, gouges, etc.

But not in Bunkai Training or SD, where you will see Karateka Fight like in forms.

Would you please stop talking about BJJ as though it was founded by some native tribe deep in the Amazonian jungle who had no contact with the outside world prior to UFC 1?

BJJ, as a style, has been around longer than Shotokan Karate. It wasn't unknown before 1993. And BJJ is "Basically Just Judo." In the first few UFCs there were high level judoka, shoot fighters and sambo practitioners, all with a firm grounding (no pun intended) in grappling.

 

[elder999]

Would you please stop talking about BJJ as though it was founded by some native tribe deep in the Amazonian jungle who had no contact with the outside world prior to UFC 1?

BJJ, as a style, has been around longer than Shotokan Karate. It wasn't unknown before 1993. And BJJ is "Basically Just Judo." In the first few UFCs there were high level judoka, shoot fighters and sambo practitioners, all with a firm grounding (no pun intended) in grappling.

QFT

 

[elder999]

In an earlier thread a member who claims to be 'highly ranked' in Shotokan was rubbishing it as being pretty much useless for 'real' fighting. My view has been that Shotokan, like most Japanese karate, has moved away from its roots in to a more competition based style of karate but here is an opinion that I came across that gives an alternate opinion.

We have had numerous discussions on the value of kata, or forms, and again, our 'highly ranked' Shotokan practitioner is dismissive of any value of the kata.

The author of this article has a different view ...

Hmm! Those of you who have been around MT for some time might recall my comments on advanced beginners.

Self-defense is not about free sparring. It's also been my experience that you don't necessarily "fight the way you train." How do I know this?

I boxed, but I never kicked anyone in the boxing ring, or punched anyone in the face in kyokushin free-fighting (which is not "sparring")......I competed at judo, but I never threw or arm-barred a boxing opponent......those are all contests-a game, basically, and one follows treh rules because one wants to play....I've done all of those things, and more, in "self defense" situations...

Self defense is about mindset, (AGAIN!!) aand mindset is not, and should not be trained by playing a game-though they do have their benefits, even benefits that extend to self-defense..

Kata training, btw, is excellent for mindset-it also encodes some basic self-defense truths. One example being that ingrains a response to the tunnel-vision effect of being adrenalized-the formulators of some kata (not just Shotokan) knew of this effect, and, though they wouldn't have usedt he same language for it, they did know how to ameliorate it's effects, and mitigate the inherent hazards...this is one of the things kata can do for us.

We now return you to your regular "MMA ground and pound" troll-fest.