Shotokan for self defence.

[drop bear]

Any style who can chest punch can face punch, and I've never heard of a school whose regular sparring isn't continuous.

The only real issue that could arise is the "they can't take Punches to the face!" Argument. But frankly, if you can take a kick to the head you're gonna be able to take punches too

Easy way to find out. You don't have to guess.

 

[Laplace_demon]

That's an ambiguous sentence structure, are you saying one hit or continuous wouldn't happen in real life?

I didn't know "instead of continious sparring,.", was ambigious.... At any event, it will not be continious sparring on the street, and that includes between boxers with no gloves. One will go down and the rest is technical. There will not be two guys bouncing around on the street either. JKA allows punches and kicks to the head and body.

 

[elder999]

A case by case investigation will reveal that they are all doing Karate and that the differences are not crucial to SD. Even Shotokan and Shorin Ryu overlap. Shotokan is of course derrived from it too. Really, it's all Karate.

I gotta admit, I agree with the boldened and enlarged part,,,,,and now I gotta go rinse the throwup out of my mouth...(now I gotta go find an animated barfing smiley-I miss that guy too!)

 

[Gnarlie]

I didn't know "instead of continious sparring,.", was ambigious.... At any event, it will not be continious sparring on the street, and that includes between boxers with no gloves. One will go down and the rest is technical. There will not be two guys bouncing around on the street either. JKA allows punches and kicks to the head and body.

The 'which' was ambiguous.

Every instance of violence I have personally experienced has gone beyond the first hit. Way beyond.

 

[Hanzou]

Or someone who does not know the first thing about form training and has made a hasty generalization based on limited experience and a lack of understanding.

Or someone who has both trained in forms and has consistently seen the sub-par results of form training.

You sound as though you think forms training is used in self defense training INSTEAD of fighting/sparring. It is not.

That's not what the OP states.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't recall anybody ever saying such a thing. It has been said that forms are ONE path towards competency. That you don't understand that path does not invalidate it.

The OP very clearly states that it's the main path, at least in Shotokan.

In reality, it's a path to get your face caved in. But hey, to each their own.

 

[Drose427]

Or someone who has both trained in forms and has consistently seen the sub-par results of form training.



That's not what the OP states.

You really should stop claiming to understand proper forms training when youve consistently had to have proper forms and bunkai training explained to you. That was actually one of your first posts on this forum.

As for sub par training from forms guys....

Do we really need to run through the list of professional fighters who not only do forms but stand by them?

Of the forms guys who have defended themselves?

Anyone who's dances through forms (or thinks thats all we're doing when doing a form) really doesn't have a grasp on what they are and shouldn't claim to.

That like saying shadow practice in Boxing or kick boxing is dancing.

 

[Steve]

This was something that was mentioned to me. If you want to test under a ruleset that you feel is more believable. Then go do that.

If you think bare knuckle hard surface to the death is better preparation. Train in that manner but it still has to be contested.

Because that is how you know if an idea works.

Don't just abandon live training for conjecture.

This is a really, really good point and I'm glad you said it, drop bear. We all have opinions about HOW to test our training. Rules are there to ensure that you don't, you know, actually kill your training partner.

But can't we all agree we must test in some way?

And while our opinions may vary about what can be gained from forms, can we all agree that forms aren't an effective test?

 

[Dirty Dog]

The OP very clearly states that it's the main path, at least in Shotokan.

In reality, it's a path to get your face caved in. But hey, to each their own.

And yet, I am involved in violent confrontations on a regular basis, and somehow manage to avoid getting my face caved in.

This, despite training in exactly the way you claim cannot work.

How do you suppose I have managed this?

 

[Steve]

And yet, I am involved in violent confrontations on a regular basis, and somehow manage to avoid getting my face caved in.

This, despite training in exactly the way you claim cannot work.

How do you suppose I have managed this?

Luck?

 

[Drose427]

This is a really, really good point and I'm glad you said it, drop bear. We all have opinions about HOW to test our training. Rules are there to ensure that you don't, you know, actually kill your training partner.

But can't we all agree we must test in some way?

And while our opinions may vary about what can be gained from forms, can we all agree that forms aren't an effective test?

By themselves yeah,

But nobody's said forms alone are

I mean, forms aren't meant to be standalone exercies, they never were.

That's the disconnect here, people thinking ANYONEs claiming they are

 

[Hanzou]

You really should stop claiming to understand proper forms training when youve consistently had to have proper forms and bunkai training explained to you. That was actually one of your first posts on this forum.

As for sub par training from forms guys....

Do we really need to run through the list of professional fighters who not only do forms but stand by them?

Of the forms guys who have defended themselves?

Anyone who's dances through forms (or thinks thats all we're doing when doing a form) really doesn't have a grasp on what they are and shouldn't claim to.

That like saying shadow practice in Boxing or kick boxing is dancing.

Please point out the professional fighters who place kata training OVER sparring/randori.

 

[Drose427]

Please point out the professional fighters who place kata training OVER sparring/randori.

Please point out the post where ANYONE has put stand alone Kata as some dominant or mystical method

 

[Hanzou]

Please point out the post where ANYONE has put stand alone Kata as some dominant or mystical method

You didn't read the article in the OP?

 

[Hanzou]

And yet, I am involved in violent confrontations on a regular basis, and somehow manage to avoid getting my face caved in.

This, despite training in exactly the way you claim cannot work.

How do you suppose I have managed this?

Anecdotal evidence is the best evidence right?

 

[Drose427]

You didn't read the article in the OP?

The article also says they are only one method.

 

[Drose427]

You didn't read the article in the OP?

And again, OP isn't talking about doing forms as a stand alone drill.

 

[Steve]

By themselves yeah,

But nobody's said forms alone are

I mean, forms aren't meant to be standalone exercies, they never were.

That's the disconnect here, people thinking ANYONEs claiming they are

I'm just pointing out that we all agree on some things. There is common ground here.

 

[drop bear]

By themselves yeah,

But nobody's said forms alone are

I mean, forms aren't meant to be standalone exercies, they never were.

That's the disconnect here, people thinking ANYONEs claiming they are

I think it was the validity of forms is backed up by bunkai.

I haven't really ever seen bunkai trained in alive enough manner to satisfy me. Not in the same way that you could equate sparring to.

Contested,unpredictable,contact. Those sorts of things.

The closest I have seen to the description of an alive contact bunkai would be a kickboxing Dutch drill. Which is of course not bunkai and does not stem from kata. And is still a drill to a certain extent. It plays its part but is not an alive test.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Or someone who has both trained in forms and has consistently seen the sub-par results of form training.

I have trained in form all my life and I agree with you. You can only use form training to "polish" your combat skill. You cannot use it to "develop" your combat skill.