Shotokan for self defence.

[Tony Dismukes]

Karate kata has nothing to do with karate sparring,

Okay. Just trying to follow along here, guys. Karate kata and karate sparring have SOMETHING to do with each other. Right? Just thinking through what I've learned from you guys, kata contains the universe of techniques. Bunkai is the exploration of the application of the techniques contained within kata. So, how does it not follow that sparring is the demonstrated ability to apply the techniques in a less controlled, more random situation. If Bunkai is the exploration of how techniques can be applied, then sparring is at least the initial demonstration of bunkai in action. Right? And you guys do say you spar.

Kata and sparring aren't the same thing, but that doesn't mean they are unrelated or have nothing to do with each other. And so, while you may understandably assert that sparring doesn't look like kata, it should resemble the bunkai (i.e., the dissection of the kata to explore the practical application of the techniques.) Shouldn't it? And so, my question is, does it? I don't know. When you break down a kata, can one see the bunkai demonstrated in free sparring?

Yeah, here we start getting into what feels like a disconnect to me. Kata and sparring are different forms of training, but they ultimately should both be contributing to the end goal of being able to effectively apply the techniques of your art in a real fight. How does it contribute to that end goal for these two forms of training to use different body mechanics, footwork, stances, hand positioning, and specifics of techniques? What is it about the immediate purpose of each of those training methods which requires these differences but still allows them both to contribute to the end goal of combat effectiveness?

I've read through the countless threads on the subject with an open mind and I still don't think I get it.

 

[Drose427]

Okay. That all makes sense to me. But the question I have then is how do you practice the bunkai? Where does the trainee move in functional application of the techniques that are demonstrated in kata, explored in bunkai but prohibited in sparring/kumite or competition?

For us,
Its the part of class right after forms.

Like in wrestling how the coach demon demondtrtes, had the kids practice, then drill. Then eventually expects to see it in live wrestling.

Our beginners start in step sparring(full speed, well within range of getting hurt if they don't react)

Then as they get better at that, we mix in other drills. I.e. attacker is coming at you more like a boxer, or haymakers, etc.

But, most adults who catch on quick about how it all ties together start drilling it and tinkering on each other before, after, or outside of class.

And obviously for Bunkai that are allowed in sparring, we try to push guys to do it there as well

 

[Steve]

For us,
Its the part of class right after forms.

Like in wrestling how the coach demon demondtrtes, had the kids practice, then drill. Then eventually expects to see it in live wrestling.

Our beginners start in step sparring(full speed, well within range of getting hurt if they don't react)

Then as they get better at that, we mix in other drills. I.e. attacker is coming at you more like a boxer, or haymakers, etc.

But, most adults who catch on quick about how it all ties together start drilling it and tinkering on each other before, after, or outside of class.

And obviously for Bunkai that are allowed in sparring, we try to push guys to do it there as well

Okay. It sounds like you're painting a clear picture for developing skill: demonstration, drilling, layering in complexity and varying contexts, sparring. There's a clear path from knowledge to comprehension to application.

So, where does kata fit in? Where does bunkai fit in? I don't get it. Or once again, if most of bunkai is prohibited from kumite, how do you become proficient in those techniques?

 

[Drose427]

Yeah, here we start getting into what feels like a disconnect to me. Kata and sparring are different forms of training, but they ultimately should both be contributing to the end goal of being able to effectively apply the techniques of your art in a real fight. How does it contribute to that end goal for these two forms of training to use different body mechanics, footwork, stances, hand positioning, and specifics of techniques? What is it about the immediate purpose of each of those training methods which requires these differences but still allows them both to contribute to the end goal of combat effectiveness?

I've read through the countless threads on the subject with an open mind and I still don't think I get it.

The big issue is traditional free sparring doesn't allow us to use every bunkai.

If it was more opening in terms of legal moves, there wouldn't really be a a big reason to drill bunkai separately.

Overall the same concepts apply, few mechanics are different. Stances obviously are but that's a different can of worms, most techs are just enunciated. So while the movement is the same overall, its looks a bit different when someone's giving resistance. The blocks are good example of this. The enunciation get you in the habit driving them like a strike, which helps, but you'll almost never knock an opponents attack as far away as in the movies or have your block extend as far out as in the form

Then you have to understand what looks like a block isn't always a block.

That knife hand is many times better though of as stepping just to the side and striking the collarbone or neck.

I bring that up because interpretation affects how one looks at the effectiveness of a tech.
I'm not a fan of knife hand blocks( or hard blocks in general) but as a strike they can do damage with proper positioning

While one isn't as light In forms, they're still typically learning the same proper position and angles,

Essentially bunkai specific training just a needless extra drill if one regularly gets to freespar on a NHB environment.

 

[elder999]

So you're saying that kicking and punching air prepares you to get punched or kicked in the face, and to handle a massive adrenaline dump?

You have got to be kidding.
.

No, I'm not kidding.

You know, I'm a teacher-not just martial arts....I've taught all kinds of classes for a great deal of my career.Reactor theory. Thermodynamics. Quantum mechanics. Device neutralization. Emergency management-stuff like that. When I "retire," I plan on working as a H.S. teacher....I like teaching, and I'm pretty good at it.....there's a place where I could use improvement, though-and that's when a person obstinately demonstrates a refusal to attempt to understand what I'm saying, while simultaneously demonstrating a complete lack of any understanding or knowledge....like saying that "there are no strikes in judo," or that "standing armbars are useless," or that "kata training is useless," when, in fact, it's been stated just how and what those things are useful for. So, in the interest of improving myself-not some desire to prove myself "right," I'm going to make one more attempt.

For starters, though:

So you're saying that kicking and punching air prepares you to get punched or kicked in the face, and to handle a massive adrenaline dump?

You have got to be kidding.

That's not at all what I said, is it?

Kata training, btw, is excellent for mindset-it also encodes some basic self-defense truths. One example being that ingrains a response to the tunnel-vision effect of being adrenalized-the formulators of some kata (not just Shotokan) knew of this effect, and, though they wouldn't have usedt he same language for it, they did know how to ameliorate it's effects, and mitigate the inherent hazards...this is one of the things kata can do for us.

Firstly, if you think "an adrenaline dump" needs being "punched and kicked in the face" to occur, you've never been involved in an altercation on the street-I've defended myself a couple of times, often without being punched or kicked at all-and often without having to throw a punch or kick, though that's another story. Fact is though, adrenaline starts flowing during the monkey dance/interview/woofing portion of a confrontation-in the one incident I talk about most often, adrenaline started flowing as soon as I saw my would-be assailants.

How does one control an adrenaline dump? Breathing. What does one practice in kata?Breathing.

That "tunnel-vision" effect I was talking about? In portions of kata where an instructor might say that the practitioner is "momentarily overwhelmed" in the "simulated battle," and the practitioner moves backward-or where the practitioner moves backward and turns his head, or, perhaps, simply turns his head, the practitioner is taking actions to ameliorate anticipated tunnel vision- during a real fight, with multiple assailants (or, more often than not, just friends who decide to jump in when you start "winning") training to maintain awareness of their presence is paramount, and some of the actions we can take to do this are to move back and widen our field of vision, and to maintain our head on a swivel. Kata teaches us to do this-it also was never about "sparring," or, necessarily, fighting another similarly trained assailant-it is about encoding these strategic and tactical tidbits, and being part of an overall health and fitness regimen.

Secondly, of course, and not to belabor the point, if what I've quoted:

So you're saying that kicking and punching air prepares you to get punched or kicked in the face, and to handle a massive adrenaline dump?

You have got to be kidding.
.

Is what you got out of what I actually said:

Kata training, btw, is excellent for mindset-it also encodes some basic self-defense truths. One example being that ingrains a response to the tunnel-vision effect of being adrenalized-the formulators of some kata (not just Shotokan) knew of this effect, and, though they wouldn't have usedt he same language for it, they did know how to ameliorate it's effects, and mitigate the inherent hazards...this is one of the things kata can do for us.

You should have stayed in H.S., son...

(guess I still have lots of room for improvement....oh well..)

 

[Drose427]

Okay. It sounds like you're painting a clear picture for developing skill: demonstration, drilling, layering in complexity and varying contexts, sparring. There's a clear path from knowledge to comprehension to application.

So, where does kata fit in? Where does bunkai fit in? I don't get it. Or once again, if most of bunkai is prohibited from kumite, how do you become proficient in those techniques?

Kata acts like a textbook of moves, there's the basic movements(I.e. next move is a block to the down) if a student is having trouble, there is a basic level interpretation that's been around since Hwang Kee but we try to shy away from those because things that could be an effective move(like my collar choke) gets called a "set up move" so when most of us teach we teach the simple movement, then give them a more realistic example or two.

Bunkai is merely the applications one draws from them I.e. the 3 examples I gave.

A student should ideally see something in a form they like, interpret it how they like best(for example, this knife hand works better as a strike, or my favorite the collar choke from odan works better when the guys already on top of you in close proximity), then depending on the move (because of the rules of traditional sparring) they either have to start applying them in free sparring, or grab a partner and have them try to beat them up so to speak.

Like I told tony just now, ideally we could free spar differently and have no need for full contact partner drilling. How we do it is effective don't properly, but it adds the need for extra drilling.

But at the end of the day, both methods will have someone barreling towards you to break your nose

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The big issue is traditional free sparring doesn't allow us to use every bunkai.

If it was more opening in terms of legal moves, there wouldn't really be a a big reason to drill bunkai separately.

Yeah, I could certainly understand it if sparring demonstrated just a smaller subset of the techniques used in kata, but that doesn't address the differences I cited.

Overall the same concepts apply, few mechanics are different. Stances obviously are but that's a different can of worms, most techs are just enunciated. So while the movement is the same overall, its looks a bit different when someone's giving resistance.

Once again, I could understand if kata represented an ideal execution of technique while the sparring version ended up being sloppier or more abbreviated. That's not really what I'm seeing though.

I'd post video of karate kata and sparring so that I could point out the specifics of the disconnect I'm seeing (in terms of body mechanics, footwork, stances, hand positioning, and specifics of techniques), but I'm afraid there would be complaints that the practitioners I selected weren't properly representative. Would you care to pick a kata clip and a sparring clip that you feel demonstrate good performance and then we can discuss what each of us sees in the comparison?

Essentially bunkai specific training just a needless extra drill if one regularly gets to freespar on a NHB environment.

Hmmm ... interesting. Based on past comments I suspect some of the other karate practitioners around here might disagree with that.

 

[Drose427]

Yeah, I could certainly understand it if sparring demonstrated just a smaller subset of the techniques used in kata, but that doesn't address the differences I cited.



Once again, I could understand if kata represented an ideal execution of technique while the sparring version ended up being sloppier or more abbreviated. That's not really what I'm seeing though.

I'd post video of karate kata and sparring so that I could point out the specifics of the disconnect I'm seeing (in terms of body mechanics, footwork, stances, hand positioning, and specifics of techniques), but I'm afraid there would be complaints that the practitioners I selected weren't properly representative. Would you care to pick a kata clip and a sparring clip that you feel demonstrate good performance and then we can discuss what each of us sees in the comparison?



Hmmm ... interesting. Based on past comments I suspect some of the other karate practitioners around here might disagree with that.

Ok, so first heres the best rendition of Keecho Il boo (basic form 1 in my style) that I could find.

Bear in mind stances are usually only that deep for conditioning,

The bunkai for the first two moves (well realy about half the second, the step acts more like a sweep then stepping to punch, or you could rotate and throw that way), is blocking/Trapping a kick, then stepping in to sweep with the right leg. You can punch if you want I guess but if you sweep hard enough you dont really need to.

Abernathy teaches like this:

And its a fairly common thing to see in Sanda/Kickboxing. Im trying to remember the K! match were a guy did it like 4 times just to spite his opponent, he did both inside like in the form and outside. But heres a sanda coach teaching a version of it. Difference is going to the outside lets you do sweep kinda to the front, and moving to the inside is more of a back sweep. Like this sweep from the Rossian Tie

Other than enunciated stance in the forms (and different angle of sweeps depending on if youre moving inside or out) the trap/block into the sweep is the movement of the first move and a half of the form.

At first Dan at my school students can start doing takedowns in sparring, and that trap/inside sweep is one of the first they learn.

A non Sport Example would be the knife hands in the first part of this demo, in forms the stance is off, but the 45 degree movements correlate to stepping out to avoid the punch and angling yourself properly. The strike, waist, and other mechanics are the same. In styles that dont do deep stances, like okinawan karates, this looks nearly identical in practice as it does in forms.

Finally, Machida.

Now, Im not used to his forms whatsoever, so I can only give the obvious examples without having a partner to tinker with. The nuances and timing are just so different, that youd need a Karate guy to break it down better

At the end of form one, he does the kick, myriad of straight punches combo he does in the cage all the time.

Also in form one theres a side kick (hand out is probably supposed to check or catch the wrist but not overly necessary) into moving in while the opponent is hit and off balance to throw the elbow. When practicing this with an opponent, you slide in for the elbow (if thats your preferred striker) immediately, but the main technique would be the same.

As for the second form, the only thing I could see off the top of my head is a high block (which will never go as high on an actual opponent, but the mechanic is the same), into the double palm strike. The high one could either break the nose or aim for the button on the chin.

Just for kicks, heres a Machida highlight vid becuase Karate or not hes awesome to watch strike

You can actually see leg tie takedown similar to how a front stance in forms teaches it mat about 1:40, he goes to step in a similar way you would were you doing it outside of forms.

And here is a clip of that punch/kick combination from kata 1 in sparring. It gets interrupted as his opponent tries to clinch and breakaway, but you can still see the combo.

Essentially these are all things one could learn without forms, but forms can help in this process and can be a good way to getting the hang of these things if youre training the bunkai properly enough.

As for Karate guys disagreeing with, Im sure some would.

I know there are combos Ive taken out of context from forms, i.e. samdan has a spear hand into a spinning backfist. I drilled as bunkai intially with someone out to break my nose, then was able to use it on the MMA guys I work with no issue.

But, they learned that combo without ever doing a kata.

so (at least from a technique standpoint) i just believe if Free Sparring was different, there would be no need to train bunkai separately. I mean maybe when youre first tinkering with a bunkai, but not to the degree many of us need to now.

But hey, thats just my opinion. As long as you're drilling full speed, proper distance, and good contact they have the same effect

 

[Drose427]

Yeah, I could certainly understand it if sparring demonstrated just a smaller subset of the techniques used in kata, but that doesn't address the differences I cited.



Once again, I could understand if kata represented an ideal execution of technique while the sparring version ended up being sloppier or more abbreviated. That's not really what I'm seeing though.

I'd post video of karate kata and sparring so that I could point out the specifics of the disconnect I'm seeing (in terms of body mechanics, footwork, stances, hand positioning, and specifics of techniques), but I'm afraid there would be complaints that the practitioners I selected weren't properly representative. Would you care to pick a kata clip and a sparring clip that you feel demonstrate good performance and then we can discuss what each of us sees in the comparison?



Hmmm ... interesting. Based on past comments I suspect some of the other karate practitioners around here might disagree with that.

At around 1:08 is the exact kick catch, step inside trip that is the Bunkai from Keecho Il Boo

The only real difference is they use a sparring guard, and dont use deep stances. But the movement, position, etc is the same.

 

[Hanzou]

As you have been told in great detail since your first day on MT, karate kata is different to karate sparring. Karate kata has nothing to do with karate sparring, yet you continue to spout the same nonsense. Get a life. If you don't understand the difference between karate kata and the kata bunkai go buy a book or something. Obviously nothing we can offer you is getting through.

I understand the differences just fine. What I don't understand is why karate kata and karate sparring looks like two completely different martial arts. In fact, Karate sparring resembles striking arts that don't contain kata at all.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Ok, so first heres the best rendition of Keecho Il boo (basic form 1 in my style) that I could find.



Bear in mind stances are usually only that deep for conditioning,

The bunkai for the first two moves (well realy about half the second, the step acts more like a sweep then stepping to punch, or you could rotate and throw that way), is blocking/Trapping a kick, then stepping in to sweep with the right leg. You can punch if you want I guess but if you sweep hard enough you dont really need to.

Thanks. I was hoping for some sparring footage from your style so I could compare and contrast the body mechanics in the kata vs sparring, but you've given me something to start with.

To begin with, you say that the first two moves of the form represent trapping a kick and stepping in to sweep. Problems I see:

1) There is no catching/trapping action in the form. The first move might represent a block, but there is no movement of the arm that would catch or trap anything. If the practitioner continued the arm motion to scoop upwards, then he might manage to underhook and catch a kick (although different body angling would work better). However he does not do that. Furthermore, look at the position of his left arm in the second step. If he had underhooked the opponent's kicking leg in the previous step, that arm position would let go of it. (The arm position might be valid if he had overhooked the opponent's kicking leg, but there is no way to get from that initial "blocking" action to an overhook on the leg.)

2) There is no sweeping action in the second step, I watched carefully and verified that the practitioner is stepping straight forward - there is no hooking, sweeping, or tripping action with the leg. It is possible to induce someone to fall by catching their kick and taking a single step straight forward with no trip, but it's not very high-percentage.

3) The remainder of the moves in the form are more of the same low-block, lunge punch combination. Hopefully the 3rd & 4th move aren't also intended to portray this same technique. If so there's an obvious problem with distancing. Unless the imaginary attacker was kicking from 7-8 feet away, the practitioner is way, way overstepping. (Abernathy points this out in a another video and offers a very different explanation for the movement.)

I've got some other quibbles, but they would be easier to explain in person than in print. (For example, the timing on the punch/arm extension is all wrong if it's meant to be supporting a takedown.) Anyway, I think we're getting away from the kata vs sparring comparison and into a different issue regarding bunkai, i.e. how helpful is it to actually do one set of movements with your body but imagine that you are performing a different set of movements.

Abernathy teaches like this:

Abernathy's movement is very different from what is shown in that form.

He angles out of the way of the kick. He uses that angle to catch the kick with an overhook. His right hand immediately goes into position to control his opponent and he finishes with rotation to take the kicker down to a weak angle. All of that is important. None of that is present in the form you posted.

Finally, Machida.

Now, Im not used to his forms whatsoever, so I can only give the obvious examples without having a partner to tinker with. The nuances and timing are just so different, that youd need a Karate guy to break it down better



At the end of form one, he does the kick, myriad of straight punches combo he does in the cage all the time.

Also in form one theres a side kick (hand out is probably supposed to check or catch the wrist but not overly necessary) into moving in while the opponent is hit and off balance to throw the elbow. When practicing this with an opponent, you slide in for the elbow (if thats your preferred striker) immediately, but the main technique would be the same.

As for the second form, the only thing I could see off the top of my head is a high block (which will never go as high on an actual opponent, but the mechanic is the same), into the double palm strike. The high one could either break the nose or aim for the button on the chin.

I see some important differences in the way Machida executes in kata vs sparring, but I'll wait until I can get feedback from someone who practices that style.

At around 1:08 is the exact kick catch, step inside trip that is the Bunkai from Keecho Il Boo

The only real difference is they use a sparring guard, and dont use deep stances. But the movement, position, etc is the same.

Looks very different to me with regard to just about every detail that makes the technique work. To mention just a few: overhook grip on the leg, close body clinch, actual hooking/tripping the support leg, and bowing towards the opponent's weak angle to finish the takedown. Exactly none of that is present in the kata you posted.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Once again, I could understand if kata represented an ideal execution of technique while the sparring version ended up being sloppier or more abbreviated. That's not really what I'm seeing though.

The "form/Kata/solo training" and "fighting" can be the same. It depends on how the "form/Kata/solo training" was created. Whatever that you will need in your application should be trained in your solo. If you miss anything in your solo training, your solo training is not properly designed.

Here is the "solo training".

Here is the "application".

 

[Drose427]

Thanks. I was hoping for some sparring footage from your style so I could compare and contrast the body mechanics in the kata vs sparring, but you've given me something to start with.

To begin with, you say that the first two moves of the form represent trapping a kick and stepping in to sweep. Problems I see:

1) There is no catching/trapping action in the form. The first move might represent a block, but there is no movement of the arm that would catch or trap anything. If the practitioner continued the arm motion to scoop upwards, then he might manage to underhook and catch a kick (although different body angling would work better). However he does not do that. Furthermore, look at the position of his left arm in the second step. If he had underhooked the opponent's kicking leg in the previous step, that arm position would let go of it. (The arm position might be valid if he had overhooked the opponent's kicking leg, but there is no way to get from that initial "blocking" action to an overhook on the leg.)

2) There is no sweeping action in the second step, I watched carefully and verified that the practitioner is stepping straight forward - there is no hooking, sweeping, or tripping action with the leg. It is possible to induce someone to fall by catching their kick and taking a single step straight forward with no trip, but it's not very high-percentage.

3) The remainder of the moves in the form are more of the same low-block, lunge punch combination. Hopefully the 3rd & 4th move aren't also intended to portray this same technique. If so there's an obvious problem with distancing. Unless the imaginary attacker was kicking from 7-8 feet away, the practitioner is way, way overstepping. (Abernathy points this out in a another video and offers a very different explanation for the movement.)

I've got some other quibbles, but they would be easier to explain in person than in print. (For example, the timing on the punch/arm extension is all wrong if it's meant to be supporting a takedown.) Anyway, I think we're getting away from the kata vs sparring comparison and into a different issue regarding bunkai, i.e. how helpful is it to actually do one set of movements with your body but imagine that you are performing a different set of movements.



Abernathy's movement is very different from what is shown in that form.

He angles out of the way of the kick. He uses that angle to catch the kick with an overhook. His right hand immediately goes into position to control his opponent and he finishes with rotation to take the kicker down to a weak angle. All of that is important. None of that is present in the form you posted.



I see some important differences in the way Machida executes in kata vs sparring, but I'll wait until I can get feedback from someone who practices that style.



Looks very different to me with regard to just about every detail that makes the technique work. To mention just a few: overhook grip on the leg, close body clinch, actual hooking/tripping the support leg, and bowing towards the opponent's weak angle to finish the takedown. Exactly none of that is present in the kata you posted.

For the first takedown, the deep knee could easily be wrapping behind the leg still standing, or it could be a sweeping motion.

As for the hands, this is a time where things aren't exact to the form.

Assuming you're driving deep enough to be able to step in for the trip,

You would have to change hand position to one where you could trap.

As I said, if you're deep enough, you could actually neglect the punch, and instead when tripping (whether you opt for the sweep or the leg wrap) use the rechambering motion of the left hand with waist rotation to pull them off balance more making them more likely to go down, like Abernathy did.

As for point number two, our association does more of a crescent when stepping in. Sorta like the middle step in some karate styles but without the actual step. So to be honest, that could contribute to how that makes more sense to me, which is my bad for giving you an inaccurate video. My instructor had a video of him performing a form on here, when I get back to my computer I'll link to it so you get a better idea of what I man by a crescent movement.

For number 3, honestly I didn't watch the full clip as the first two moves are the ones we teach the form from and what I deemed most important. The first 2 were a good representation of how we do it (aside from steeping straight out) without actually having a clip of the form from my school.

As for machida, my main point was the punches/front kick combo that he does, other than stances and specific targets for the forms, the only real difference in execution I saw (for that part of the kata at least) was in sparring he really drives through, whereas in kata he doesn't.

The block/palm strike in kata two had timing issues, but if drilled would still be applicable. Although I'm not a fan of the lower palm strike over a guard with that arm.

Close body would be how one would do the form with a partner, or should at least. Driving in deep enough is one the first things we stress when teaching it as bunkai. We also do more of a crescent step but I'll link you to that video(it is a different form however,)

As for the rest,

Its a something I think we've talked about before.

While some moves in forms will translate almost perfectly, other need to be interpreted and adapted for sparring. Some folks like it and have no issue seeing exactly what to do to make it work. They can just feel it when working with a resisting opponent and correct it.

Others prefer to be shown directly.

In another thread me and Steve talked about how we learned the collar choke.

He with direct instruction and drilling

And me by seeing it in pinan odan, and rolling until I got the hang of it(because its far more difficult standing and takes extra movements to get there)

 

[Drose427]

Thanks. I was hoping for some sparring footage from your style so I could compare and contrast the body mechanics in the kata vs sparring, but you've given me something to start with.

To begin with, you say that the first two moves of the form represent trapping a kick and stepping in to sweep. Problems I see:

1) There is no catching/trapping action in the form. The first move might represent a block, but there is no movement of the arm that would catch or trap anything. If the practitioner continued the arm motion to scoop upwards, then he might manage to underhook and catch a kick (although different body angling would work better). However he does not do that. Furthermore, look at the position of his left arm in the second step. If he had underhooked the opponent's kicking leg in the previous step, that arm position would let go of it. (The arm position might be valid if he had overhooked the opponent's kicking leg, but there is no way to get from that initial "blocking" action to an overhook on the leg.)

2) There is no sweeping action in the second step, I watched carefully and verified that the practitioner is stepping straight forward - there is no hooking, sweeping, or tripping action with the leg. It is possible to induce someone to fall by catching their kick and taking a single step straight forward with no trip, but it's not very high-percentage.

3) The remainder of the moves in the form are more of the same low-block, lunge punch combination. Hopefully the 3rd & 4th move aren't also intended to portray this same technique. If so there's an obvious problem with distancing. Unless the imaginary attacker was kicking from 7-8 feet away, the practitioner is way, way overstepping. (Abernathy points this out in a another video and offers a very different explanation for the movement.)

I've got some other quibbles, but they would be easier to explain in person than in print. (For example, the timing on the punch/arm extension is all wrong if it's meant to be supporting a takedown.) Anyway, I think we're getting away from the kata vs sparring comparison and into a different issue regarding bunkai, i.e. how helpful is it to actually do one set of movements with your body but imagine that you are performing a different set of movements.



Abernathy's movement is very different from what is shown in that form.

He angles out of the way of the kick. He uses that angle to catch the kick with an overhook. His right hand immediately goes into position to control his opponent and he finishes with rotation to take the kicker down to a weak angle. All of that is important. None of that is present in the form you posted.



I see some important differences in the way Machida executes in kata vs sparring, but I'll wait until I can get feedback from someone who practices that style.



Looks very different to me with regard to just about every detail that makes the technique work. To mention just a few: overhook grip on the leg, close body clinch, actual hooking/tripping the support leg, and bowing towards the opponent's weak angle to finish the takedown. Exactly none of that is present in the kata you posted.

The form my instructor did for a post here doesnt contain the movement Im talking about but I found a replacement

While this guys overall form isnt how we'd do it, he does the Crescent step I was talking about for getting your leg around

 

[K-man]

Yeah, here we start getting into what feels like a disconnect to me. Kata and sparring are different forms of training, but they ultimately should both be contributing to the end goal of being able to effectively apply the techniques of your art in a real fight. How does it contribute to that end goal for these two forms of training to use different body mechanics, footwork, stances, hand positioning, and specifics of techniques? What is it about the immediate purpose of each of those training methods which requires these differences but still allows them both to contribute to the end goal of combat effectiveness?

I've read through the countless threads on the subject with an open mind and I still don't think I get it.

Tony, I think it is obvious that there are many ways that people understand kata and there are many ways that people apply that understanding to their training. I also believe there are many levels of understanding.

When Hanzou first started on MT one of the first things he did was to dismiss kata as irrelevant when it comes to real fighting. I posted many videos at the time showing how kata translates to bunkai and how the bunkai is training for real fighting. He dismissed everything I posted as not representative as he had never seen that type of training. Like Elder, I am sick of trying to discuss bunkai with him.

However, for those who genuinely want to understand the application of kata to fighting I will post another video of the guys I have trained with.

 

[Flying Crane]

I understand the differences just fine. What I don't understand is why karate kata and karate sparring looks like two completely different martial arts. In fact, Karate sparring resembles striking arts that don't contain kata at all.

Given how many discussions you have hijacked on this very topic, and how many times and in how many different ways it had been explained to you, it is obvious that if you still do not understand it, then you never will. That's ok. The well-being of the world does not hinge upon your understanding or your acceptance of the training method.

 

[Flying Crane]

Okay. It sounds like you're painting a clear picture for developing skill: demonstration, drilling, layering in complexity and varying contexts, sparring. There's a clear path from knowledge to comprehension to application.

So, where does kata fit in? Where does bunkai fit in? I don't get it. Or once again, if most of bunkai is prohibited from kumite, how do you become proficient in those techniques?

Hi Steve,

Question for you: have you ever trained in a method that uses kata as part of the methodology? Do you have any direct experience with it? Thx.

 

[Drose427]

So something I notice talking to Tony that I hadnt caught on to before,

Our style steps in to a front stance with a crescent step like the gentleman in the tang soo do video I posts.

This lead a bunkai to work for us and make sense for me, as that motion recreates hooking an opponents leg after trapping a kick if you go inside, or sweeping the leg if you go to the outside.

But would would the Bunkai bee in styles that come straight out?

Do you guys still look at it as a Takedown when doing the form, that just needs altered a it more for bunkai?

Or do you use a different bunkai altogether for the Low Block into another front stance *Insert various attack/block*?

 

[K-man]

So something I notice talking to Tony that I hadnt caught on to before,

Our style steps in to a front stance with a crescent step like the gentleman in the tang soo do video I posts.

This lead a bunkai to work for us and make sense for me, as that motion recreates hooking an opponents leg after trapping a kick if you go inside, or sweeping the leg if you go to the outside.

But would would the Bunkai bee in styles that come straight out?

Do you guys still look at it as a Takedown when doing the form, that just needs altered a it more for bunkai?

Or do you use a different bunkai altogether for the Low Block into another front stance *Insert various attack/block*?

Crescent step is stepping around the leg for a takedown or it can be used for trapping the foot using your toes or heel depending on the situation. As for low 'block', I don't teach any 'blocks' as blocks. Within a kata a block would mean there had to be a strike and as kata works on predictive response and is not choreography, how would you know there was a punch or kick coming? That doesn't stop you taking a piece of kata and applying it that way but it is not the way you use kata as a system of fighting. That is what we call oyo bunkai.

 

[Hanzou]

Tony, I think it is obvious that there are many ways that people understand kata and there are many ways that people apply that understanding to their training. I also believe there are many levels of understanding.

When Hanzou first started on MT one of the first things he did was to dismiss kata as irrelevant when it comes to real fighting. I posted many videos at the time showing how kata translates to bunkai and how the bunkai is training for real fighting. He dismissed everything I posted as not representative as he had never seen that type of training. Like Elder, I am sick of trying to discuss bunkai with him.

However, for those who genuinely want to understand the application of kata to fighting I will post another video of the guys I have trained with.

That's a demonstration though.

Here's some Goju sparring, and it looks nothing like that;

Its the standard kickboxing like fighting seen in almost all karate sparring.