Shotokan for self defence.

[K-man]

I'm off too, I can't be bothered arguing against made up 'facts'. My ailurophilia is kicking in anyway and I need to attend to that.

Personally, I'm more of a cynophilist.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I pulled out of this thread long ago but I can't let this go. In another thread a member was talking about history being made up. Well Shorei Ryu would seem to back up this line of thought. It is nothing to do with Goju Ryu and I doubt it has much to do with Okinawa even. As to being hard/soft ... there was no soft in that choreographed representation..

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Instead of pointing out what I said it isn't, why don't you point out what it is?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Pointless replying on here as the subject has got even further away from the OP. We've got posts of every style except Shotokan and we are back to MMA again. Unless we can get back to Shotokan it's a waste of time.

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The point is traditional karate, Shotokan, is not best viewed in a vacuum. Tying concepts and traditions in Shotokan to various fighting circumstances is what the whole concept of a blog is about. IMO.

 

[K-man]

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Instead of pointing out what I said it isn't, why don't you point out what it is?

How can I point out what it is? As far as I can tell the name comes from a series of mistakes. It isn't a style of Okinawan karate and it has nothing to do with the Okinawan form of karate based on Shori-Te that was practised in Shuri. It definitely has nothing to do with Naha-Te so to call it Goju Ryu is just wrong.

Looking at the guys who practise a style of karate called Shorei-Ryu reveals a claim to a history that is dubious to say the least.

The misunderstanding seems to have arisen from the similarity in the words Shorinji-ryu (Shorin [Shaolin] Temple Style) and Shoreiji-ryu (Shorei Temple Style) from China.

I don't want to waste time discussing it further in this thread as this thread is totally off track already.

 

[drop bear]

Sparring for the street from one of my favourite people.
How to Spar for the Street Part 1 by Iain Abernethy Iain Abernethy

Provided a real fight does not step outside the boundaries of the accepted real fight dogma. Seems just as restrictive as competition without using a true scientific process.

 

[Tez3]

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The point is traditional karate, Shotokan, is not best viewed in a vacuum. Tying concepts and traditions in Shotokan to various fighting circumstances is what the whole concept of a blog is about. IMO.

Actually, the subject that is supposed to be under discussion is the Shotokan style of karate, discussing other styles without even mentioning Shotokan is pointless. This is a discussion NOT a blog.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Going back to the original post from the threadmaker - Whoever discards Shotokan as being rubbish, yet promote some other Karate style of the same era, is really making a distinction without a difference. Sure, Kata differs greatly between styles, but how in the world are Kata nuances related to Self Defence? You either accept these older Karate styles or you don't. At their core, it's all Okinawan/Japanese Karate. Period!

 

[elder999]

Going back to the original post from the threadmaker - Whoever discards Shotokan as being rubbish, yet promote some other Karate style of the same era, is really making a distinction without a difference. Sure, Kata differs greatly between styles, but how in the world are Kata nuances related to Self Defence? You either accept these older Karate styles or you don't. At their core, it's all Okinawan/Japanese Karate. Period!

Nah.

 

[K-man]

Going back to the original post from the threadmaker - Whoever discards Shotokan as being rubbish, yet promote some other Karate style of the same era, is really making a distinction without a difference. Sure, Kata differs greatly between styles, but how in the world are Kata nuances related to Self Defence? You either accept these older Karate styles or you don't. At their core, it's all Okinawan/Japanese Karate. Period!

That would be me and after nearly 1000 posts you have missed entirely the point of the OP.

 

[Laplace_demon]

That would be me and after nearly 1000 posts you have missed entirely the point of the OP.

I have not read these 1000 posts of which you speak! And I made a general point.

 

[drop bear]

Lets focus back on the O.P.

From the article.

"Mary-Beth Macaluso (above) began her shotokan training 17 years ago so she could protect herself and strengthen her muscles. After training for several years, she discovered that the seemingly endless repetitions of punches, kicks and blocks made her more aware of her surroundings. “By training consistently and often, you become increasingly aware,” the second-degree black belt says. “It becomes like an instinct.”

So in regards to awareness I obviously have that as part of my training as well. Because I do seemingly endless combinations.

Which would be fun to claim. But how on earth does anybody make that logical link?

 

[Laplace_demon]

Lets focus back on the O.P.

From the article.

"Mary-Beth Macaluso (above) began her shotokan training 17 years ago so she could protect herself and strengthen her muscles. After training for several years, she discovered that the seemingly endless repetitions of punches, kicks and blocks made her more aware of her surroundings. “By training consistently and often, you become increasingly aware,” the second-degree black belt says. “It becomes like an instinct.”

So in regards to awareness I obviously have that as part of my training as well. Because I do seemingly endless combinations.

Which would be fun to claim. But how on earth does anybody make that logical link?

You cannot recieve training in that which is unavoidable and automatic - perception (awareness). Not that she isn't deluded, she might very well be. It's just that your analogy is not without it flaws.

 

[K-man]

Lets focus back on the O.P.

From the article.

"Mary-Beth Macaluso (above) began her shotokan training 17 years ago so she could protect herself and strengthen her muscles. After training for several years, she discovered that the seemingly endless repetitions of punches, kicks and blocks made her more aware of her surroundings. “By training consistently and often, you become increasingly aware,” the second-degree black belt says. “It becomes like an instinct.”

So in regards to awareness I obviously have that as part of my training as well. Because I do seemingly endless combinations.

Which would be fun to claim. But how on earth does anybody make that logical link?

From my point of view it is totally illogical. To me it is more someone claiming a benefit from repetitive training that simply isn't there and the quote is really at odds with the rest of the article which is saying that there is other training in Shotokan beyond the kihon.

 

[K-man]

I have not read these 1000 posts of which you speak! And I made a general point.

Then perhaps that might be a good thing to do if you wish to add informed comment to the discussion.

Going back to the original post from the threadmaker - Whoever discards Shotokan as being rubbish, yet promote some other Karate style of the same era, is really making a distinction without a difference. Sure, Kata differs greatly between styles, but how in the world are Kata nuances related to Self Defence? You either accept these older Karate styles or you don't. At their core, it's all Okinawan/Japanese Karate. Period!

So what is the general point remembering I was the original 'thread maker'?

"Whoever discards Shotokan as being rubbish, yet promote some other Karate style of the same era, is really making a distinction without a difference."

Not at all. Okinawan karate from the same era is totally different. Wado Ryu karate is totally different. For openers, these styles have much more grappling than most Shotokan.

"Sure, Kata differs greatly between styles, but how in the world are Kata nuances related to Self Defence?"

They aren't. It is the kata bunkai that is related to self defence and that was the point of the OP.

"You either accept these older Karate styles or you don't."

OK, another point of difference. Shotokan in its present form is a recent style of Karate formed by the JKA in 1949, not an older one.

"At their core, it's all Okinawan/Japanese Karate. Period!"

Oh boy! That was the purpose of my other thread. You obviously didn't read that one either. Okinawan and Japanese Karate are as different as oranges and bananas.

 

[K-man]

You cannot recieve training in that which is unavoidable and automatic - perception (awareness). Not that she isn't deluded, she might very well be. It's just that your analogy is not without it flaws.

The analogy, to my reading, was irony.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Shotokan has always included grappling and throws, it's in the Kata. Many instructors have simply ignored it and soley focused on extracting the punch/kick style that most people associate with Karate. But again, it's part of the techniques in Katas. Most of the Karate styles are a mixture of each other, with great overlaps. The only fundamental difference is in emphasis.

Wado Ryu is an exception being a Jujitsu version of Karate, developed by a jujitsu guy who had been taught Karate (Shotokan) There might be others too.

As for the analogy I commented on: It may have been purposely ironic, but with no justification, since sofisticated punching kicking and blocking is not unavoidable and automatic repeated training. You don't kick and and punch automatically every breathing moment of your life.

 

[Tez3]

Wado Ryu is an exception being a Jujitsu version of Karate, developed by a jujitsu guy who had been taught Karate (Shotokan) There might be others too.

Okay, why can't you just post what is true instead of twisting things to suit whatever argument you are promoting? Wado Ryu isn't a jujitsu version of karate " developed by a jujitsu guy who had been taught Karate", really must you always disrespect karate masters? A 'guy', really? That's the founder of Wado Ryu you are talking about, an amazing man who studied martial arts ie he was a martial artist who didn't waste his time blathering about things he knew nothing about. When are you actually going to do research before writing these things down, you manage to disrespect so many, you go back on what you said and argue the opposite, really I don't know how you have time for any training which is what you should be doing instead of coming on here spouting your nonsense.

 

[Laplace_demon]

What did I write which isn't true? Please, do tell. Everything I wrote was from a factual perspective true. If you want to go down this path of differentiation, as the threadmaker did, then Wado Ryu is the least similiar style. Cry me a river.

 

[Tez3]

What did I write which isn't true? Please, do tell. Everything I wrote was from a factual perspective true. If you want to go down this path of differentiation, as the threadmaker did, then Wado Ryu is the least similiar style. Cry me a river.

More unintelligible sentences, if you can't stay on the subject of the OP why don't you start your own threads? I will make a positive effort not read them, then post up whatever I think will make me sound intelligent as well as hopefully disrespecting and insulting every other poster.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I am staying on the topic. There is no point to single out Shotokan. There are watered down Goju Ryu schools, with the exact same critical voices against them as against Shotokan. Learning Shotokan or Goju Ryu doesn't really matter for self defence, what matters is the school, and they are in no way different in this regard.