Shotokan for self defence.

[RTKDCMB]

Original UFC was no holds barred and the same trend was true...

The first 4 were to some degree, however;

• Both fighters knew exactly when the fight would start.
• There was a referee to stop the fight when necessary.
• A doctor was on hand.
• The environment was controlled.
• The fighting surface was designed for safety.
  
• It was one on one with no possibility of interference or weapons involved.
• No legal repercussions.
• Both fighters were willing.
• Both fighters knew exactly who they were fighting.
• They wore appropriate clothes they were able to select beforehand.

Not exactly like real life. A lot closer to reality than what is is now though.

 

[Tez3]

Sparring for the street from one of my favourite people.
How to Spar for the Street Part 1 by Iain Abernethy Iain Abernethy

 

[ShotoNoob]

The first 4 were to some degree, however;

• Both fighters knew exactly when the fight would start.
• There was a referee to stop the fight when necessary.
• A doctor was on hand.
• The environment was controlled.
• The fighting surface was designed for safety.
  
• It was one on one with no possibility of interference or weapons involved.
• No legal repercussions.
• Both fighters were willing.
• Both fighters knew exactly who they were fighting.
• They wore appropriate clothes they were able to select beforehand.

Not exactly like real life. A lot closer to reality than what is is now though.

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Still, within that 'controlled environment,' one is facing an actively-resisting full contact-enabled opponent who may have various & different martial style or styles behind technique.
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An aspect of control you left out is the legitimacy of the Gracie BJJ-supposed superiority. Contrast the Gracie dominance against how has the MMA wrestler-grappler opponent fared against Machida's Shotokan-based MMA style....
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There is a heavy element of promotion @ work in MMA, IMO.

 

[ShotoNoob]

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Now again, I want to preface my vid with some specifics, which is often omitted when these are use for illustration....
The value of the Heian kata (bunkai) vid I quoted from K_MAN is that it builds this:

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Upon further investigation, I found the traditional karate style presented in this vid to be Shorei ryu karate. An Okinawan style of traditional karate which is both / similar / either a predecessor / to Goju ryu. I myself prefer the emphasis on hard / soft mixture of movement exhibited in Shorei ryu to the JKA version of Hard, hard hard physicality of Shotokan....

 

[ShotoNoob]

The way that he stands, he extends his arms out much further away from his head than his opponent does. This would give him less striking ability but more grappling ability. His hands will be closer to his opponent's body than his opponent's hands close to his body.

When you extend your arms out, your opponent's arms have to pass your arms to hit you. That will give you more chance to wrap his arms.

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Again, this is where sport-fighting conventions, particularly the drift in sport karate away from traditional principles confuses & masks the power of traditional karate.
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the hands up form of guard by the Gracie opponent is a boxing, kickboxing convention. The Gracie guard is more akin to a traditional karate guard. In Shotokan, the hands typically are held much lower than Gracie is doing.
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PURPOSE OF THE TRADITIONAL KARATE GUARD:
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1. The Outstretched Hand Advantage. Just as you stated, the out-stretched hand in the traditional karate guard presents an intercepting barrier against movement(s) on the part of the opponent. Grappling ,striking, whatever.
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2. The Outstretched Hand constricts Striking Ability. Your position is based on sport-fighting methods. Boxing, Muay thai, etc. Under these methods your statement is true. By traditional karate, your statement is FALSE. The outstretched guard hand works in unison with the reverse striking hand assuming a reverse punch. furthermore, a traditional karate strike can be launched with the forward hand.
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Moreover, sport-fighting is more 1-dimensional in the reactive use of upper body to make strikes. Under traditional karate, the entire body is more engaged the offensive / defensive, to which the guard hand is a part, a unit, that contributes & supports the action of the whole.

 

[ShotoNoob]

First, I want to qualify this by saying that I'm not complianing, and understand completely why this exists. But this myth that grappling is somehow favored in MMA is just ludicrous....

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Yeah, this is my overall position when so many touted the superiority of Royce Gracie in the early UFC....
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BTW: Some of your commentary presents valid commentary of "CAGE" physics and MMA politic's like the WC vid proposes why WC doesn't match well for MMA follow the same analogies.
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I believe these are factors. Nonetheless, good striking is going to beat good grappling on par. I believe Machida's Shotokan-based MMA-record is evidence of that....

 

[ShotoNoob]

1: 34 --http://Keith Hackney Vs Royce Gracie - Video

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Thanks for putting up this MMA vid. A great illustration of how a striker (Hackney) COULD have killed the grappler (R. Grace).
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For one, R. Gracie's striking never posed any material threat to Hackney. A very similar rendition to the kickboxer contest I had & wrote about. Yet again, instead of Traditional Kenpo, we have Hackney backpedalLIN, circling over the Octagon. huh?
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Moreover, Hackney struck R. Gracie several times successfully upon Gracie's grappling attempts @ both closing the distance & in tie-ups. R. Gracie continued completely unscathed.... Full contact or full promotion...? K. Hackney was touted as an 8th degree Kenpo black-belt. So much for the belt system, TMA critics would say. I guess it's at 9th degree in Kenpo we finally are strong enough to knock somebody for a loop!!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

1. The Outstretched Hand Advantage. Just as you stated, the out-stretched hand in the traditional karate guard presents an intercepting barrier against movement(s) on the part of the opponent. Grappling ,striking, whatever.

The out-stretched arms is also used in Chinese wrestling as well. It serves many advantages such as:

- You try to fight in your opponent's territory instead of to fight in your own territory,
- You don't give your opponent enough free space to generate power and speed for his punch.
- Your fist is close to your opponent's face. This will put him in defense mode.
- You are ready to wrap your opponent as an octopus wraps on a fish.
- You can sense your opponent's intention in the early stage
- You are ready to elbow your opponent any moment.
- ...

 

[ShotoNoob]

KEITH HACKNEY VS. TRADITIONAL KENPO.
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The body & arm techniques work as a complete, integrated synchronized unit. The TMA guard is a component of that unit. Not in isolation, like the shell & cover boxing, conventional MMA guard....
Traditional Kenpo Beginner Form.

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EDIT: BTW--This kenpo artist is training "mental clarity" big time in this form....
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EDIT 2ND: Now contrast the movement taught in this Kenpo form to the running-all-around by *the nth degree Kenpo black-belt* Keith Hackney in the UFC / R. Gracie vid. Hackney would fail the Kenpo short-form exam. Maybe that's why he lost....

 

[ShotoNoob]

The out-stretched arms is also used in Chinese wrestling as well. It serves many advantage....

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Agreed 100%.

 

[ShotoNoob]

PROGRESSION IN TRADITIONAL KENPO:
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The Kenpo Short form (shown first) teaches mental clarity? Now once that is mastered, we transition to this.
AMERICAN KENPO Longer Form:

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American Kenpo is a style of traditional karate I like. I think it's complicated, which can be a benefit and / or detriment.
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Hackney vs. Royce Gracie Fight Point:
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Contrast the movement supporting execution of technique in this fundamental Kenpo form to Keith Hackney's wild slapping swing way out of position & off balance against Royce Gracie--a total & complete whiffff....... And i wouldn't call this an 8th degree black-belt form either....

 

[ShotoNoob]

WHEN DOES TANG SOO DO STOP BECOMING TANG SOO DO?
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not here. Traditional karate doesn't need to be physically complicated like Kenpo. It does require presence of mind, mental clarity.
Here is the movement in the Kenpo forms, isolated to concentrate on application.

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Keith Hackney did actually clock Royce Gracie with an uppercut. WOW, in applied Tang Soo Do. Guard hand moves to block ward off Gracie grab, step back to avoid clinch up, and counter to open target. What else is going on here. Not the simpleton stuff boxer's, Sport fighters see @ all.

 

[Laplace_demon]

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Thanks for putting up this MMA vid. A great illustration of how a striker (Hackney) COULD have killed the grappler (R. Grace).
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Yes. He's a prime example of a natural born fighter.

According to reports, the Muay Thai fighter in this clip did not know BJJ at the time of the fight.

BJJ is easier for strikers than Greco Roman or Submission Wrestling. Wrestlers tend to be bigger, train takedowns far more than grapplers, so getting close is almost impossible.

 

[Tez3]

Pointless replying on here as the subject has got even further away from the OP. We've got posts of every style except Shotokan and we are back to MMA again. Unless we can get back to Shotokan it's a waste of time.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Shotokan is striking, in case you didn't know.

 

[Tez3]

Shotokan is striking, in case you didn't know.

Actually, it's not just striking, we've been through all this before and the OP is Shotokan for self defence...in case you didn't know.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Actually, it's not just striking, we've been through all this before and the OP is Shotokan for self defence...in case you didn't know.

It's primarily a striking art. That's what people learn it for. If you don't think grappling is common in self defence scenarios, you really have no clue. BJJ has revolutionised the martial arts world. Expect the guy to know BJJ, if you are unfortunate enough to actually face a fellow martial artist.

 

[Tez3]

 

[K-man]

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Upon further investigation, I found the traditional karate style presented in this vid to be Shorei ryu karate. An Okinawan style of traditional karate which is both / similar / either a predecessor / to Goju ryu. I myself prefer the emphasis on hard / soft mixture of movement exhibited in Shorei ryu to the JKA version of Hard, hard hard physicality of Shotokan....

I pulled out of this thread long ago but I can't let this go. In another thread a member was talking about history being made up. Well Shorei Ryu would seem to back up this line of thought. It is nothing to do with Goju Ryu and I doubt it has much to do with Okinawa even. As to being hard/soft ... there was no soft in that choreographed representation..

 

[Tez3]

I pulled out of this thread long ago

I'm off too, I can't be bothered arguing against made up 'facts'. My ailurophilia is kicking in anyway and I need to attend to that.