Shotokan for self defence.

[K-man]

Please point out anywhere in that article where Abernethy distinguishes between the two. He simply says Karate in general, so how am I being obtuse when he himself is saying that Karate in general rarely practices Tegumi or grappling?

he doesn't have to distinguish between the two because Japanese Karate is basically what took the world by storm thanks to the fantastic promotional work of Gogen Yamaguchi (Goju Kai) and the JKF. Most karate outside Japan is derived from Japanese styles which in the main have a strong sport component rather than bunkai. That doesn't mean bunkai wasn't there for those who wanted to explore it. Tegumi is a different thing totally. I agree it is not widely practised outside of Okinawa but grappling is not Tegumi. Even in Goju Kai we had an element of stand up grappling.

Further, we ARE talking about Shotokan in this thread, not whatever Okinawan style you practice.

Ah, yes of course. My style is unique. For the record it is Goju, hardly unique, but it was you who switched the thread from Shotokan to the more generic 'Karate'. You can say that In the Shotokan dojo you attended they didn't have grappling but once you step outside that and make it 'Karate' had no grappling you are just plain wrong and there is ample evidence in this thread alone to prove you know very little about Karate outside your limited experience.

Out of interest, here is the post that switched it from Shotokan to 'Karate' about ten pages back.

Flak for what? Pointing out that Karate is lacking when it comes to ground fighting, and that lack can be detrimental or deadly in a self defense situation?

Perhaps, but the difference is that MMA has an answer for all the steps in that scenario. Karate's answer stops as soon as the fight hits the pavement.

I haven't been shown it. What I've been shown are stories about Funakoshi wrestling in Okinawa, a Karateka who took some Bjj lessons and awkwardly applied those techniques to Tekki Shodan, and Abernethy doing a common Bjj mount escape and someone claiming that it was Kata bunkai. Given that small amount of evidence, I think I have a right to be skeptical.

Everyone has the right to be skeptical but when evidence is presented common sense should determine whether what is presented is valid.

So Abernethy is only talking about Japanese karate? Interesting that he never made that distinction in any of his articles. If what you say is true, you would think that if one wanted to learn karate grappling, they would simply go learn it from the Okinawan styles, instead of trying to decode the techniques from kata. Further, you would think Abernethy would point out that the Okinawan styles of karate haven't forgotten grappling techniques. It seems strange that he would make a claim that Karate has forgotten grappling, when the Okinawan styles of Karate are supposedly still practicing it.

Here we go, twisting it yet again. What has learning karate grappling got to do with decoding the techniques from kata? You haven't understood anything. You don't learn grappling from kata and you don't have to train an Okinawan style of karate to learn grappling. Your sense of logic is amazing.

And Iain didn't say "karate has forgotten grappling". He said it is rarely practised.

"The grappling & seizing aspects of karate are rarely practised today, but it is vital to understand that grappling was once as much a part of karate asthe striking techniques most commonly associated with the art today."

He also said that perhaps to find the grappling skills you should look at the older versions of karate. That could imply Okinawan but he goes on to say that what he is looking for is in the kata anyway.

"So if real self-defence skills are our aim perhaps we should look at the older versions of karate? Within the katas are recorded the original fighting methods of karate. The katas record the original karate system and hence the katas contain techniques and concepts for use at every range, including grappling."

That's strange, because Tez said that Abernathy had plenty of grappling experience in his Karate since his youth. Yet now you say that since his style is Japanese, grappling isn't so common.

I wish you'd both get your stories straight.

Nothing wrong with the story as far as I'm concerned. As you pointed out, grappling isn't so common in Japanese karate. This is not the same as saying grappling in Japanese karate doesn't exist. Again, just because you didn't experience it in your limited training no one else could be doing it. Cool!

I think the main difference between you and Iain, apart from the enormous gap in experience, is that Iain has an enquiring mind where yours is ... um ... closed.

 

[Hanzou]

he doesn't have to distinguish between the two because Japanese Karate is basically what took the world by storm thanks to the fantastic promotional work of Gogen Yamaguchi (Goju Kai) and the JKF. Most karate outside Japan is derived from Japanese styles which in the main have a strong sport component rather than bunkai. That doesn't mean bunkai wasn't there for those who wanted to explore it. Tegumi is a different thing totally. I agree it is not widely practised outside of Okinawa but grappling is not Tegumi. Even in Goju Kai we had an element of stand up grappling.

Typically, if someone tells me that "Grappling is rarely taught in Karate", I'm going to guess that they're talking about all forms of Karate, including the Okinawan variety. It also seems odd that Abernethy wouldn't make the distinction since he's talking about a form Okinawan grappling. If you're saying that Okinawan Tegumi is largely absent from Japanese Karate, wouldn't you take great pains to make the distinction that it IS present in Okinanwan Karate?

I think a more sensible conclusion is that Abernethy was talking about ALL forms of Karate when he says that grappling is rarely taught in Karate.

You can say that In the Shotokan dojo you attended they didn't have grappling but once you step outside that and make it 'Karate' had no grappling you are just plain wrong and there is ample evidence in this thread alone to prove you know very little about Karate outside your limited experience.

I'm pretty sure I was talking about ground fighting.

However, wouldn't it be fair to say that Karate lacks grappling if its an established fact that grappling is rarely taught and is a forgotten aspect of Karate practice?

And Iain didn't say "karate has forgotten grappling". He said it is rarely practised.

"The grappling & seizing aspects of karate are rarely practised today, but it is vital to understand that grappling was once as much a part of karate asthe striking techniques most commonly associated with the art today."

The title of the article is Tegumi - Karate s Forgotten Range Iain Abernethy

Wouldn't that imply that Karate grappling is largely forgotten?

 

[Tez3]

Wouldn't that imply that Karate grappling is largely forgotten?

correction...WAS NOT IS. You did say btw that there was never any grappling in karate so now you agree there is.

You are arguing for the sake of it

 

[Mephisto]

Oh so something doesn't exist unless it's on You Tube? Glad we cleared that up then. There was no life before video, history doesn't exist.
'If Wado' has grappling? The founder was a JJ master, he has stated that there is grappling in Wado but it can't be true because it's not on You Tube! What would the founder of Wado Ryu know about Wado Ryu eh! Well now I know that the founder was wrong all along and I was training Scotch Mist rather than karate with grappling in I'll go back to my cave, pull the animal skin over my head and just pretend I exist.

Oh did you know there's no self defence in BJJ? I train it and I've never been shown any self defence techniques at all, I've only seen Gi and No Gi comps in BJJ, there's absolutely no SD at all in BJJ, it's utterly useless, I've never seen anyone in a video defend themselves in a real attack with BJJ. It just doesn't exist.

No one ever said "something doesn't exist unless it's on youtube", at this point you're just being obtuse. If grappling is in Wado, and it is common i'd expect it to be on youtube. It's entirely possible that it's not on youtube, all you have to say is that you are unable to find it. You could find something else like a drawing or photo ot copy of a syllabus. Part of being scientific about something is presenting evidence. If you want to change minds or convince someone of something you've got to present evidence. I didn't read every link that was provided in this thread, I skimmed over some of the lengthy posts. If you think you've already presented sufficient evidence, restate it or copy and paste the most relevant quotes and they can be analyzed. I'm not going to read every diatribe linked. I think evidence has been presented that the founders of some karate styles had some ground grappling knowledge and it's reasonable to assume they knew some ground grappling. However, the debate here is to how common ground grappling is in karate.

correction...WAS NOT IS. You did say btw that there was never any grappling in karate so now you agree there is.

You are arguing for the sake of it

Did he say "there was never any grappling in karate"? Didn't he say that karate was lacking when it comes to ground fighting? He was speaking in much less absolute terms than you are here, just like you stated that no history existed before youtube. All that can be said is that there is some grappling in some karate schools but it is not mainstream. You can't infer that Hanzou's karate training was inferior if it is commonplace for karate schools to not train ground fighting. If ground fighting is common in karate there should be video somewhere.

Check out the video below. As has been stated any ground fighting that may or may not be present in karate is minimalist, the below link is a match between several karate guys and some Gracie practitioners including Gracie family members. I wouldn't expect someone with minimal ground fighting to out grapple a GJJ expert but I would expect someone with some ground fighting knowledge to at lead attempt a hip escape,upa, or some fundamental escape technique. The karate guys in the video clearly have no ground fighting knowledge, and that's fine neither does your average boxer. Maybe these guys were some of the few poorly trained karate guys that missed the ground fighting memo? I don't think so.

 

[Mephisto]

just for s & gs I youtube "karate grappling" and found this

Check out the 1:07 mark, karate grappling! Referred to as tegumi! How hard was that? Here we have evidence of some brief limited karate grappling. It took me two seconds to find this, if some here care enough to convince others that karate does have ground grappling more videos like this should be presented. After it is established that several videos exist it we can look more in depth as to where the grappling originated and how long it has been part of these systems. But instead a few links were provided and you guys have just kept assuring us karate grappling does exist and you keep referring back to the same links. If karate grappling is common it won't de difficult to find demonstrable evidence of it.

 

[Drose427]

just for s & gs I youtube "karate grappling" and found this

Check out the 1:07 mark, karate grappling! Referred to as tegumi! How hard was that? Here we have evidence of some brief limited karate grappling. It took me two seconds to find this, if some here care enough to convince others that karate does have ground grappling more videos like this should be presented. After it is established that several videos exist it we can look more in depth as to where the grappling originated and how long it has been part of these systems. But instead a few links were provided and you guys have just kept assuring us karate grappling does exist and you keep referring back to the same links. If karate grappling is common it won't de difficult to find demonstrable evidence of it.

We've said several times it's not that difficult to find if you actually look for it.

we've also given a thesis with pictures, I posted a video of kids competing with it during what looks like a belt test.

You may not find it as demonstration videos like BJJ, but you can find pictures and demos from schools still doing it.

Some places don't record and upload videos, that's hardly A good way to judge something.

 

[Hanzou]

Tong Dojo has a Brazilian Juijitsu instructor, and another of their main instructors has freestyle grappling experience, So its not surprising that they have grappling;

Martial Arts Classes Instructors Atlanta GA

Its not Tegumi, its Bjj and wrestling.

 

[Mephisto]

another 2 secs and I found this:

At 4:28, he addresses tegumi and ground fighting. Where he basicall states some limited ground grappling did exist in classical karate but it was never a focus or specialty. Note, he also mentions how karate is known for strikes but that it does have some standing up joint lock techniques and throws. No where does he state that ground fighting is common or that it exists in karate at present time. I can't do all of your homework guys, but given some more in depth examples you might be able to make a compelling argument for groundfighting in karate. Of course, what intially brought up ground fighting was a knife attack on the ground, so the limited ground fighting of karate still might not have been much good in that specific scenario.

 

[Mephisto]

Tong Dojo has a Brazilian Juijitsu instructor, and another of their main instructors has freestyle grappling experience, So its not surprising that they have grappling;

Martial Arts Classes Instructors Atlanta GA

Its not Tegumi, its Bjj and wrestling.

Yeah, I figured some analysis might be necessary. But my point still stands, provide evidence and video if you want to change minds.

 

[Mephisto]

We've said several times it's not that difficult to find if you actually look for it.

we've also given a thesis with pictures, I posted a video of kids competing with it during what looks like a belt test.

You may not find it as demonstration videos like BJJ, but you can find pictures and demos from schools still doing it.

Some places don't record and upload videos, that's hardly A good way to judge something.

Repost the thesis and repost the pictures, share specific quotes. You can't convince anyone by saying your opinion over and over, you need evidence and facts. Telling me to look it up myself isn't going to convince me, that's your job.

 

[K-man]

Typically, if someone tells me that "Grappling is rarely taught in Karate", I'm going to guess that they're talking about all forms of Karate, including the Okinawan variety. It also seems odd that Abernethy wouldn't make the distinction since he's talking about a form Okinawan grappling. If you're saying that Okinawan Tegumi is largely absent from Japanese Karate, wouldn't you take great pains to make the distinction that it IS present in Okinanwan Karate?

The statement, "Grappling is rarely taught in Karate" may well apply to generic 'karate' but it doesn't apply to Okinawan karate where it is still being taught as it always was. Iain's point is that overall Tegumi is absent from Karate where the bulk of the karate is Japanese. Get a life. The point has been addressed and explained.

I think a more sensible conclusion is that Abernethy was talking about ALL forms of Karate when he says that grappling is rarely taught in Karate.

I think the most sensible conclusion is that when Okinawan karate was taken to Japan it was taken more for its health benefits that the actual fighting aspect.

I'm pretty sure I was talking about ground fighting.

However, wouldn't it be fair to say that Karate lacks grappling if its an established fact that grappling is rarely taught and is a forgotten aspect of Karate practice?

Not at all. Your command of the English language is lacking if you can't understand what Iain is saying. You are twisting words. I'm not sure that there is any 'established fact' here at all. There is an opinion, with which I agree, that "grappling is rarely taught and is a forgotten aspect of karate practise", karate being the genetic term. "Grappling is rarely taught" and "karate lacks grappling" are two totally different things. Grappling is inherent in karate whether it is taught or not. Tegumi is 'forgotten' in Japanese karate but it is still inherent in the kata, a fact that Iain has pointed out.

The title of the article is Tegumi - Karate s Forgotten Range Iain Abernethy

Wouldn't that imply that Karate grappling is largely forgotten?

Let's look at what Iain actually wrote ..
"The grappling & seizing aspects of karate are rarely practised today, but it is vital to understand that grappling was once as much a part of karate as the striking techniques most commonly associated with the art today."

I don't see where it implies grappling itself is forgotten. He is talking about Tegumi, the style of grappling that is inherent in karate.

 

[Tez3]

If grappling is in Wado, and it is common i'd expect it to be on youtube. It's entirely possible that it's not on youtube, all you have to say is that you are unable to find it. You could find something else like a drawing or photo ot copy of a syllabus. Part of being scientific about something is presenting evidence. If you want to change minds or convince someone of something you've got to present evidence. I didn't read every link that was provided in this thread, I skimmed over some of the lengthy posts. If you think you've already presented sufficient evidence, restate it or copy and paste the most relevant quotes and they can be analyzed. I'm not going to read every diatribe linked. I think evidence has been presented that the founders of some karate styles had some ground grappling knowledge and it's reasonable to assume they knew some ground grappling. However, the debate here is to how common ground grappling is in karate.

I don't know if there's anything on You Tube, never looked, I simply don't care. You don't believe we are telling the truth then you prove we are lying mate. Oh and good luck on that one.

I don't want to change minds at all, I don't actually care whether I'm believed or not however if I say that I do something I don't expect to be called a liar and have to present visual evidence to prove I did it. I'm not presenting evidence to be judged by you or anyone, what we are saying is that we do it, if you don't think we do, fine but it makes you look bad not us. We haven't suggested you don't train martial arts or that you are lying about what you do so why are you suggesting and inferring we are lying which is what you are doing when you say 'oh if it were so it would be on You Tube'.
Please post up everything you do in martial arts because I don't believe that you actually train unless I see videos of you training on a video. See, that's not good is it? Demanding evidence because you don't believe someone when they give you their experiences is on the whole a nasty thing to do. As my mother would have said it's a very common thing to do and she brought me up not to be common. Common in this sense in the UK is not a good thing to be. this is a place for discussion and there has to be a certain trust before any sensible discussions are held, that hasn't been the case, for months now and on several different threads there have been posts constantly trashing karate for one thing or another. It's a personal vendetta and one that has some jumping on the band wagon. don't be that person that sees someone attacking others and jumps in with the boot.

You have already judged karate and karateka, it's obvious by your comments. Whatever 'proof' we gave you would be dismissed so all in all discussing this further would be time I'd never get back. I hope you find your way back off your high horse and become grounded again, perhaps we can have a proper discussion sometime but sure as eggs is eggs this isn't the one.

 

[Drose427]

another 2 secs and I found this:

At 4:28, he addresses tegumi and ground fighting. Where he basicall states some limited ground grappling did exist in classical karate but it was never a focus or specialty. Note, he also mentions how karate is known for strikes but that it does have some standing up joint lock techniques and throws. No where does he state that ground fighting is common or that it exists in karate at present time. I can't do all of your homework guys, but given some more in depth examples you might be able to make a compelling argument for groundfighting in karate. Of course, what intially brought up ground fighting was a knife attack on the ground, so the limited ground fighting of karate still might not have been much good in that specific scenario.

Repost the thesis and repost the pictures, share specific quotes. You can't convince anyone by saying your opinion over and over, you need evidence and facts. Telling me to look it up myself isn't going to convince me, that's your job.

If you wanna learn, put in the work to read 2 pages.

lif we link to books predating bjj, most won't read past the first paragraph.

If we show an article discussing evidence from before BJJ, but the article is from 2010, it's all a modern invention.

Frankly, even if I or others personally made videos showing The applications on the ground or ground drills we've been doing since day one, it'd be "something we stole from BJJ/MMA to catch up with their popularity."

Earlier in this we walked through ground applications from 3 Pinan forms. If we made a video on it, "it wouldn't have been from Karate."

We cant change a stubborn persons opinion, even with pictures or video or documentation.

If you actually care to learn, go looks at the links we've posted and look into it on your own.

 

[K-man]

Repost the thesis and repost the pictures, share specific quotes. You can't convince anyone by saying your opinion over and over, you need evidence and facts. Telling me to look it up myself isn't going to convince me, that's your job.

If you can't be bothered reading what has already been posted, don't hold your breath.

As to your remarks about Wado Ryu and grappling. They demonstrate you have no knowledge of the origins of Wado that is actually regarded as a style of Jujutsu by some, or maybe you think you can practise jujutsu without touching someone like a no touch KO.

From one point of view, Wadō-ryū might be considered a style of jūjutsu rather than karate. It should be noted that Hironori Ōtsuka embraced Shotokan and was its chief instructor for a time. When Ōtsuka first registered his school with the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai in 1938, the style was called "Shinshu Wadō-ryū Karate-Jūjutsu," a name that reflects its hybrid character. Ōtsuka was a licensed Shindō Yōshin-ryū practitioner and a student of Yōshin-ryū when he first met the Okinawan karate master Gichin Funakoshi. After having learned from Funakoshi, and after their split, with Okinawan masters such asKenwa Mabuni and Motobu Chōki, Ōtsuka merged Shindō Yōshin-ryū with Okinawan karate. The result of Ōtsuka's efforts is Wadō-ryū Karate.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadō-ryū

 

[Mephisto]

The statement, "Grappling is rarely taught in Karate" may well apply to generic 'karate' but it doesn't apply to Okinawan karate where it is still being taught as it always was. Iain's point is that overall Tegumi is absent from Karate where the bulk of the karate is Japanese. Get a life. The point has been addressed and explained.

Now you're differentiating okinawan from the rest of karate a distinction that hasn't been emphasized before. If the original quote said that groundfighting in karate is lacking, and you agree with this than why not just say so? but add the qualifier that it is more present in okinawan. This seems to be the gist of what you are saying. You agree that grappling is not common in the majority of karate, correct?

I think the most sensible conclusion is that when Okinawan karate was taken to Japan it was taken more for its health benefits that the actual fighting aspect.

I agree with this, but the implications that japanese karate isn't for fighting are far more likely to cause disagreement, which is another completely different issue, but still worth discussing. So, perhaps shotokan isn't good for self defense if karate in japan's main puropse is health benefits.

Not at all. Your command of the English language is lacking if you can't understand what Iain is saying. You are twisting words. I'm not sure that there is any 'established fact' here at all. There is an opinion, with which I agree, that "grappling is rarely taught and is a forgotten aspect of karate practise", karate being the genetic term. "Grappling is rarely taught" and "karate lacks grappling" are two totally different things. Grappling is inherent in karate whether it is taught or not. Tegumi is 'forgotten' in Japanese karate but it is still inherent in the kata, a fact that Iain has pointed out.

Personal attacks aren't the way to have a productive debate. Questioning Honzou's training and his "command of the english language" are personal attacks. The fact that you've had this long drawn out debate shows he must be able to communicate well enough. "grappling is rarely taught" and "karate lacks grappling" are similar statements and much less absolute than you assume.

Let's look at what Iain actually wrote ..
"The grappling & seizing aspects of karate are rarely practised today, but it is vital to understand that grappling was once as much a part of karate as the striking techniques most commonly associated with the art today."

I don't see where it implies grappling itself is forgotten. He is talking about Tegumi, the style of grappling that is inherent in karate.

I'd say rarely practiced counts as an implication that it has been forgotten. It may bnot be forgotten by all but if it's rare than grappling has been forgotten by the majority.

 

[Tez3]

I've just seen a T shirt for sale. It says on the front " I CAN EXPLAIN IT TO YOU BUT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT FOR YOU"

Nuff said.

 

[Mephisto]

If you can't be bothered reading what has already been posted, don't hold your breath.

As to your remarks about Wado Ryu and grappling. They demonstrate you have no knowledge of the origins of Wado that is actually regarded as a style of Jujutsu by some, or maybe you think you can practise jujutsu without touching someone like a no touch KO.

Exactly, I have no knowledge of Wado and never claimed such. Not sure why you'd assume that I believe in the existence of no touch k.o.s unless you're just resorting to personal attacks again. If grappling is common in Wado post a link or a pic. You're losing the argument and getting upset, that's why you're resorting to personal attacks. Grappling is not common in karate. Do you agree with this?

 

[Mephisto]

I've just seen a T shirt for sale. It says on the front " I CAN EXPLAIN IT TO YOU BUT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT FOR YOU"

Nuff said.

Personal attacks again, your t-shirt options are irrelevant.

 

[Mephisto]

If you wanna learn, put in the work to read 2 pages.

lif we link to books predating bjj, most won't read past the first paragraph.

If we show an article discussing evidence from before BJJ, but the article is from 2010, it's all a modern invention.

Frankly, even if I or others personally made videos showing The applications on the ground or ground drills we've been doing since day one, it'd be "something we stole from BJJ/MMA to catch up with their popularity."

Earlier in this we walked through ground applications from 3 Pinan forms. If we made a video on it, "it wouldn't have been from Karate."

We cant change a stubborn persons opinion, even with pictures or video or documentation.

If you actually care to learn, go looks at the links we've posted and look into it on your own.

If you want to change opinions present your evidence. Forum communication is terribly inefficient and catching up with missed posts is difficult. But I suppose you're right, I should go back and re read if I truly care.

 

[Drose427]

If you want to change opinions present your evidence. Forum communication is terribly inefficient and catching up with missed posts is difficult. But I suppose you're right, I should go back and re read if I truly care.

We have, if you personally don't care to look, that's not our Problem.

I can't force you to read.

Not caring or not putting in the time to learn doesn't mean we arent giving or havent given evidence.

There's enough in this thread to spark curiosity in anyone who's open minded enough to care.

Don't confuse stubbornness or indifference with winning or being right.

Especially when you personally said you didn't train in Wadu.


I haven't trained in BJJ, but when a BJJ explains to me where striking is in classic BJJ, I'm not going pretend I know more than him because 99% of the BJJ videos and demos out there don't include any striking.