Shotokan for self defence.

[Tez3]

Where did I say he was lying? I'm simply pointing out that Karate just happened to rediscover its grappling roots during the height of the MMA craze where grappling is of tantamount importance to many MA practitioners and potential students.

Well the craze gets here I'm sure we'll let you know. It's really not such a big thing here you know. TKD is bigger because we have successful Olympians and most non martial arts people think we all do Judo anyway. My instructors were teaching us grappling in the 1970s, guess that was the height of the MMA craze too? Iain started in Wado too so has been grappling in karate since he was a young boy.

 

[Drose427]

Where did I say he was lying? I'm simply pointing out that Karate just happened to rediscover its grappling roots during the height of the MMA craze where grappling is of tantamount importance to many MA practitioners and potential students.

So now Karate has ground fighting applications that can be found in its kata and simply were "re-discovered?"

Cause Abernerthy is discussing Newaza always existing in kata. Earlier you called that "laughable"

Nobody "Just happened" upon anything. Ian wrote that article in 2010, but everything he discussed and used as examples in evidence happened and existed long before the days of BJJ and MMA.

None of the info on grappling in Karate is new or a mystery.

I can write a book on smithing practices during the 1600s this year, but I'm not just "rediscovering" folded steel because people like Katanas.

 

[Drose427]

Well the craze gets here I'm sure we'll let you know. It's really not such a big thing here you know. TKD is bigger because we have successful Olympians and most non martial arts people think we all do Judo anyway. My instructors were teaching us grappling in the 1970s, guess that was the height of the MMA craze too? Iain started in Wado too so has been grappling in karate since he was a young boy.

Completely different note:

Is Aaron Cook still fighting for Isle of Man or has Britain finally got their head on straight?

 

[Tez3]

Completely different note:

Is Aaron Cook still fighting for Isle of Man or has Britain finally got their head on straight?

Seems he's still 'Isle of Man' but he is eligible for the British team in the Olympics etc, like Cavendish in cycling. TKD made a big splash in the Olympics and it's seen here as a tough sport not a 'kiddie' one so is very popular. It's a whole different cultural thing, we have quite a few MMA fighters from TKD. Judo is much more the driving force in ground fighting with Judo Olympians coaching and now UK Judo has got into a partnership with the UFC here.
I would say if anyone where to make something up to get students in it would be the BJJ people, I hasten to add they don't though. We have only a few BJJ higher grades here spread out over the country, they have a good reputation though we have had some dodgy Brazilians come across, at least two are in prison.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well the craze gets here I'm sure we'll let you know. It's really not such a big thing here you know. TKD is bigger because we have successful Olympians and most non martial arts people think we all do Judo anyway. My instructors were teaching us grappling in the 1970s, guess that was the height of the MMA craze too? Iain started in Wado too so has been grappling in karate since he was a young boy.

It's not really that much of a craze here either. It's a vocal venue, I guess that's about advertising for events, it's certainly on television enough. But here too, by far most schools, gyms, clubs, dojo, dojang and kwoon are NOT mma.

I'd say some folks get wrapped up in something and they start to believe that the rest of the world is as wrapped up in it as they are. It just isn't true.

 

[K-man]

Another good read concerning Karate, specifically Shotokan, Bunkai and grappling.
http://www.norwichshotokan.co.uk/downloads/Thesis.pdf

Brilliant! I hope Hanzou takes the time to read it. It means that I am not alone in my style of training and that this style of training is even available to students of Shotokan. I was getting quite a complex being told time after time that my training wasn't real, that I didn't train Tegumi, grappling etc, then that my training wasn't typical etc.

But I really liked this ...
"I would like to think my findings have brought consideration to a subject which I believe is declining in today’s modern approach to karate. It is my intention, along with other likeminded people who choose to address this subject, to educate and spread the word to as many willing and “open minded” students of karate-do as possible.

I have explained the meaning of kata and the way it should be used, how it has changed over the years and the real purpose of kata - almost lost to “modernization”. Of course the world evolves and so does karate. Bunkai can and should be developed in the same way; “evolution” should not be used as an excuse to leave behind the true meaning of kata."

Pity "willing and open minded" isn't more common.

Great post Tez!

 

[RTKDCMB]

However, that article though was written in 2010, during the height of the MMA craze.

So? At least half of those techniques shown in chapter 2 I have been doing long before MMA was even heard of.

 

[Hanzou]

Well the craze gets here I'm sure we'll let you know. It's really not such a big thing here you know. TKD is bigger because we have successful Olympians and most non martial arts people think we all do Judo anyway.

Yet we're not talking about TKD or Judo. We're talking about Karate.

 

[Hanzou]

So now Karate has ground fighting applications that can be found in its kata and simply were "re-discovered?"

Not what I said. I said that its interesting that Karate suddenly began to rediscover its grappling roots during a period where grappling was becoming increasingly popular among martial arts practitioners. I have yet to see any reputable, native Karate ground work displayed by anyone. All I've seen are two examples of ground work, and both clearly come from Bjj.

Cause Abernerthy is discussing Newaza always existing in kata. Earlier you called that "laughable"

Well again, I respect Abernerthy, but I have yet to see any evidence of newaza within kata. If he's trying to say that that Bjj mount escape in that video you posted is kata bunkai, then yes it IS laughable.

Nobody "Just happened" upon anything. Ian wrote that article in 2010, but everything he discussed and used as examples in evidence happened and existed long before the days of BJJ and MMA.

None of the info on grappling in Karate is new or a mystery.

I can write a book on smithing practices during the 1600s this year, but I'm not just "rediscovering" folded steel because people like Katanas.

Then why does Abernathy call that article Tez posted; Tegumi - Karate's Forgotten Range? Doesn't the term "forgotten" indicate that it has been lost to mainstream Karate practice for some time?

From the article Tez posted;

The grappling & seizing aspects of karate are rarely practised today, but it is vital to understand that grappling was once as much a part of karate as the striking techniques most commonly associated with the art today. Shigeru Egami, in his book “The Heart of Karate-do” wrote, “There are also throwing techniques in karate… Throwing techniques were practised in my day, and I recommend that you reconsider them.” Gichin Funakoshi also makes reference to grappling techniques in “Karate-Do Kyohan”. Funakoshi wrote, “…in Karate, hitting, thrusting, and kicking are not the only methods, throwing techniques and pressure against joints are included.” All of karate’s grappling techniques are recorded within the katas, and it is within the katas we need to look if we wish to resurrect this vitally important part of the art.

Rarely practised? You said that all the good Karate instructors are teaching this. What gives? Why would Abernathy state that there is a need to resurrect this vitally important part of the art if all the "real" Karate practitioners are already doing it?

Continued;

At around 1905 – when karate underwent many changes such that it would be suitable for the physical education for Okinawa’s school children – the regular practice of the more dangerous techniques was discouraged. This rationalisation of karate training meant that many aspects of Tegumi were abandoned. It is mainly because of this ‘sanitising’ of karate that grappling is no longer a common sight in the majority of today’s karate dojos.However, if we wish to practice karate as a complete system of fighting, we should endeavour to include Tegumi in our practice. The wonderful thing is that the katas provide a living record of these methods! If we study the katas in sufficient depth, all aspects of the original fighting art of karate are there for the taking (including Tegumi). Within the katas there are a great deal of grappling techniques in addition to the commonly taught striking methods, with the majority of kata techniques showing the integrated use of both methods. If fact, Toshihisa Sofue 7th Dan has stated that “Eighty percent of karate kata is throwing and locking.” And yet you rarely see throws and locks in today’s dojos!

Many aspects of Tegumi were abandoned, Grappling is no longer a common sight in the majority of today's karate dojos, you rarely see throws and locks in today's dojos....

Yet we get this (ironically from the exact same group that posted this article);

Brilliant! I hope Hanzou takes the time to read it. It means that I am not alone in my style of training and that this style of training is even available to students of Shotokan. I was getting quite a complex being told time after time that my training wasn't real, that I didn't train Tegumi, grappling etc, then that my training wasn't typical etc.

My instructors were teaching us grappling in the 1970s, guess that was the height of the MMA craze too? Iain started in Wado too so has been grappling in karate since he was a young boy.

See this is what I'm talking about. On one hand I have you, Tez, and K-Man saying that Karate grappling is widely practiced, then I get Abernathy saying that its rarely practiced, is largely forgotten, and is urging the Karate community to bring it back into practice again. The ironic thing is that you guys are using Abernathy as an example when he's contradicting your entire argument in the first place.

 

[Tez3]

Yet we're not talking about TKD or Judo. We're talking about Karate.

Look, I was replying to your accusation that Iain wrote the article in order to 'compete' with MMA for students, you are taking a sentence totally out of context and trying to make it mean something else. I can't help if you don't understand how a rebuttal is phrased.

You are wilfully misunderstanding, misquoting and generally trolling around the posts, good grief you can't even get Iain's name right. We are responsible for what we write, we aren't responsible for the fact you aren't understanding it. This has been the pattern of your posting since you got here, hit and run, trying to be as disruptive by deliberately misreading what others write.
I'm sorry but it's really sad that someone has to be this way.

 

[Hanzou]

Look, I was replying to your accusation that Iain wrote the article in order to 'compete' with MMA for students, you are taking a sentence totally out of context and trying to make it mean something else. I can't help if you don't understand how a rebuttal is phrased.

Actually the rebuttal was spot on. Your deflection had little to do with my point, which was all of these tales of grappling in Karate didn't start popping up until MMA arrived on the scene. Again, before the UFC, even Judo schools were neglecting Newaza practice, and they were neglecting it for decades. So much so that when Bjj emerged on the world stage, it was like an entirely different system.

If Judoka were barely doing Newaza, its laughable to think that Karateka were doing it in any serious manner.

 

[TimoS]

On one hand I have you, Tez, and K-Man saying that Karate grappling is widely practiced, then I get Abernathy saying that its rarely practiced, is largely forgotten, and is urging the Karate community to bring it back into practice again.

I think Abernethy's pretty right in saying that it has been largely forgotten by mainstream karate. For that we can thank the focusing on competitions in favor of learning kata. By kata I don't mean just the solo form, but also the contents. And I think you are right in guessing that many who are now teaching grappling, especially on the ground, in karate have taken those lessons from somewhere else. That doesn't mean that it hasn't been practiced all along by many, without outside influences. The ground fighting is, IMO, just about totally lacking in karate and that's fine by me. If I want to learn that, I'll join a BJJ club. There are locks and throws in karate kata, maybe not as much as some seem to think, but they are there. They just have to be learned and then also to some extent pressure tested. If you can't use techniques from kata under pressure, then what good are they?

 

[K-man]

Then why does Abernathy call that article Tez posted; Tegumi - Karate's Forgotten Range? Doesn't the term "forgotten" indicate that it has been lost to mainstream Karate practice for some time?

Hanzou, you must be being deliberately obtuse. I have explained to you many times there is a huge difference between Japanese karate and Okinawan karate. Tegumi is regularly practised in Okinawa. You will find it mainly spoken of as Kakie. It hasn't been lost to mainstream practise in Okinawa.

Rarely practised? You said that all the good Karate instructors are teaching this. What gives? Why would Abernathy state that there is a need to resurrect this vitally important part of the art if all the "real" Karate practitioners are already doing it?

There is a need to put it back into the styles that let it go and concentrated on the sporting aspect of karate. That is nothing you do with 'real' karate practitioners. You know what you know. I hadn't heard of Tegumi and the grappling aspects of karate either. The difference between you and me is when I was told about it and shown it I embraced it with both arms. You, on the other hand, are in denial.

Many aspects of Tegumi were abandoned, Grappling is no longer a common sight in the majority of today's karate dojos, you rarely see throws and locks in today's dojos....

Yet we get this (ironically from the exact same group that posted this article);

See this is what I'm talking about. On one hand I have you, Tez, and K-Man saying that Karate grappling is widely practiced, then I get Abernathy saying that its rarely practiced, is largely forgotten, and is urging the Karate community to bring it back into practice again. The ironic thing is that you guys are using Abernathy as an example when he's contradicting your entire argument in the first place.

Again you distort what we have said. No one had said it is widely practised within Japanese karate. There are more and more schools reintroducing it, but in the Japanese styles that could well take time as often their training is far more regimented than the informal Okinawan training. Nothing Iain Abernethy has said contradicts what I have said. I'm on his song sheet 100%. His style is Japanese so grappling is not so common, as you have discovered. My style is Okinawan where it is a regular part of practise.

As for Tez, she's been fortunate. She's been training Wado Ryu which has had grappling since its inception. Hironori Ōtsuka was astute enough to realise what was missing from Japanese karate back in the 1930s and opened his own school with training that included Jiu Jutsu. I had to wait until I accidently stumbled across it 70 years later.

 

[K-man]

Actually the rebuttal was spot on. Your deflection had little to do with my point, which was all of these tales of grappling in Karate didn't start popping up until MMA arrived on the scene. Again, before the UFC, even Judo schools were neglecting Newaza practice, and they were neglecting it for decades. So much so that when Bjj emerged on the world stage, it was like an entirely different system.

If Judoka were barely doing Newaza, its laughable to think that Karateka were doing it in any serious manner.

Again you distort the truth. No one that I have seen has claimed Ne-waza is a big part of karate. On the other hand, Katame-waza has always been a big part of Okinawan karate and obviously Wado Ryu as well.

 

[Tez3]

Actually the rebuttal was spot on. Your deflection had little to do with my point, which was all of these tales of grappling in Karate didn't start popping up until MMA arrived on the scene. Again, before the UFC, even Judo schools were neglecting Newaza practice, and they were neglecting it for decades. So much so that when Bjj emerged on the world stage, it was like an entirely different system.

If Judoka were barely doing Newaza, its laughable to think that Karateka were doing it in any serious manner.

Really? And you are an expert on Judo as well as karate now? Just because you say something doesn't make it actually what is happening everywhere.. Just because you didn't do something doesn't mean others don't do it, unless your ego is so monstrous that unless you are doing something then it simply doesn't exist? So, all around the world no karateka has been doing no grappling at all, ever because you say so and because something has been 'forgotten' it will always stay forgotten even if people talk about it, practice it, it will be forever forgotten?
Then we come to the nub of all your posts, the superiority to everything of BJJ, we get that you love your BJJ, that it's your saviour, you've seen the light and given your soul to the great being that is BJJ. Well, good for you, it doesn't however make you an expert on all martial arts nor even an expert on BJJ. It makes you someone who enjoys his style and has a modicum of knowledge, that should be satisfying to anyone, learning something, improving it and enjoying it but no, what is really enjoyable is baiting people on the internet by rubbishing their style, trolling long and loud about how useless they are and generally being offensive. It's a style of posting designed to create the maximum amount of irate responders ( yes it's the style of posting I'm deploring not the person who I'm sure wouldn't be rude enough to do it to people's faces)
Good people have given time over to considered posts on karate, to see them treated as though they were idiots is disappointing, to see their words twisted to mean something else in order to try to win points is sad, it's not worthy of martial artists who should at least have respect for other martial artists even if they consider what they do ineffective or useless because the truth is that those martial artists may well know something you don't.
A person's style doesn't look any better or shine as a style when you rubbish someone else's martial arts, it just tarnishes both styles.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Then why does Abernathy call that article Tez posted; Tegumi - Karate's Forgotten Range? Doesn't the term "forgotten" indicate that it has been lost to mainstream Karate practice for some time

Obviously someone remembered it.

 

[Hanzou]

I think Abernethy's pretty right in saying that it has been largely forgotten by mainstream karate. For that we can thank the focusing on competitions in favor of learning kata. By kata I don't mean just the solo form, but also the contents. And I think you are right in guessing that many who are now teaching grappling, especially on the ground, in karate have taken those lessons from somewhere else. That doesn't mean that it hasn't been practiced all along by many, without outside influences. The ground fighting is, IMO, just about totally lacking in karate and that's fine by me. If I want to learn that, I'll join a BJJ club. There are locks and throws in karate kata, maybe not as much as some seem to think, but they are there. They just have to be learned and then also to some extent pressure tested. If you can't use techniques from kata under pressure, then what good are they?

Yeah, and I have no issue with that. What I have issue with is training in an outside style, going back to Karate and saying that the outside style you learned was actually hidden inside Karate the entire time. Then when someone says that they never learned that stuff you just snuck into Karate, that person is accused of not learning "real" Karate.

Your viewpoint is right alongside Abernathy's. He says pretty plainly that if you want to learn grappling, learn it outside of Karate. That also aligns right along with my experience in Shotokan.

 

[TimoS]

What I have issue with is training in an outside style, going back to Karate and saying that the outside style you learned was actually hidden inside Karate the entire time. Then when someone says that they never learned that stuff you just snuck into Karate, that person is accused of not learning "real" Karate.

Well, I agree with you on that. Sure you can bring some outside influences back into karate and to me, that's fine. Just as long as you are honest about where you learned the stuff and don't (radically) change things. An example: our style's European chief instructor is also I believe a 7. dan in aikido, so every once in a while he teaches some techniques slightly differently than others, but the basic principle remains the same, only some of the minor details are changed (e.g. the direction of certain finishes. It's a bit hard to describe these in words and there's no video available that would show these differences)

 

[Drose427]

He says pretty plainly that if you want to learn grappling, learn it outside of Karate.

Nobody here has saI'd other than yourself that it's a proper way to learn grappling. Several times we've said just the opposite.

Again, you're twisting words here

That also aligns right along with my experience in Shotokan.

there it is again, your training didn't have it. So no one's does.

I have no BJJ experience, and I walked you through 2 applications from our forms

Danny T talked about doing wrestling like drills in his Shot okay

Goju and Wadu Ryu do this drills frequently. 5 or 6 people now have chimed in on how and what they do for grappling and ground applications in their Karate Training long before the BJJ/MMA craze.

Not to mention the books from we've given you discussing it that were written some 20-30 years before MMA.

But I guess the experience of the many is a lie because it doesn't fit the experience of the few?

(It's a bthere's no video available that would show these differences)

According to Hanzou, this means the differences don't exist

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, you must be being deliberately obtuse. I have explained to you many times there is a huge difference between Japanese karate and Okinawan karate. Tegumi is regularly practised in Okinawa. You will find it mainly spoken of as Kakie. It hasn't been lost to mainstream practise in Okinawa.

Please point out anywhere in that article where Abernethy distinguishes between the two. He simply says Karate in general, so how am I being obtuse when he himself is saying that Karate in general rarely practices Tegumi or grappling?

Further, we ARE talking about Shotokan in this thread, not whatever Okinawan style you practice.

There is a need to put it back into the styles that let it go and concentrated on the sporting aspect of karate. That is nothing you do with 'real' karate practitioners. You know what you know. I hadn't heard of Tegumi and the grappling aspects of karate either. The difference between you and me is when I was told about it and shown it I embraced it with both arms. You, on the other hand, are in denial.

I haven't been shown it. What I've been shown are stories about Funakoshi wrestling in Okinawa, a Karateka who took some Bjj lessons and awkwardly applied those techniques to Tekki Shodan, and Abernethy doing a common Bjj mount escape and someone claiming that it was Kata bunkai. Given that small amount of evidence, I think I have a right to be skeptical.

Again you distort what we have said. No one had said it is widely practised within Japanese karate.

Except very clearly, you do not. You know what your training was. Where the rest of us can recognize when a movement from a kata can be applied in groundfighting and groundwork and how thats been taught to us, you've have taken every opportunity to say nothing more than, "No, we never did that at my old school so clearly it isnt there! BJJ is still better for grappling!" When many different people from different schools here have explained that its common in Dojos everywhere and effectiveness against a grappler was never the question.

The movement he demonstrated on his partner were exactly the same as the first moves of the form. You may have a way of doing it in BJJ, but what he demonstrated was right out of that kata, unadulterated, unchanged. I never said where he learned it, but that exact movement is from the kata, is taught in Karate as a means of getting back up exactly as he demonstrated, in schools all over. He said he noticed the familiar movement during BJJ practice, he didnt learn it there. Again, same concept as a boxer using a hook from his back. Its a familiar movement all the same. He even demonstrated and described the movements when teaching form standing in the video as he did from the back. Nothing distinction it as BJJ, especially when the EXACT MOVEMENT is in the video you posted of Tekki Shodan.

Even with zero BJJ training, if he had been working on groundwork he would have recognized that position from Tekki Shodan and would still apply and teach it that way.

Saying he only say that because of his BJJ is giving incorrect credit.

He didnt "discover" it, that moves always been there.. Other schools have taught [Shotokan Ground Fighting] that way. Attributing it to him would be like saying the Gracies invented the Armbar. Not to mention the examples Paul D and K-Man gave from other forms if you'd like other examples. At this point, you're simply in denial because your Shotokan was lacking so you assume all else does as well.

There are more and more schools reintroducing it, but in the Japanese styles that could well take time as often their training is far more regimented than the informal Okinawan training.

So Abernethy is only talking about Japanese karate? Interesting that he never made that distinction in any of his articles. If what you say is true, you would think that if one wanted to learn karate grappling, they would simply go learn it from the Okinawan styles, instead of trying to decode the techniques from kata. Further, you would think Abernethy would point out that the Okinawan styles of karate haven't forgotten grappling techniques. It seems strange that he would make a claim that Karate has forgotten grappling, when the Okinawan styles of Karate are supposedly still practicing it.

Nothing Iain Abernethy has said contradicts what I have said. I'm on his song sheet 100%. His style is Japanese so grappling is not so common, as you have discovered. My style is Okinawan where it is a regular part of practise.

That's strange, because Tez said that Abernathy had plenty of grappling experience in his Karate since his youth. Yet now you say that since his style is Japanese, grappling isn't so common.

My instructors were teaching us grappling in the 1970s, guess that was the height of the MMA craze too? Iain started in Wado too so has been grappling in karate since he was a young boy.

I wish you'd both get your stories straight.