Shotokan for self defence.

[Drose427]

I haven't been shown it. What I've been shown are stories about Funakoshi wrestling in Okinawa,

Clearly you haven't actually read the article. The full excerpt is far more than Funakoshi remisnicisng. He explains how and we're he used it in his karate.

Abernathy even mentions more than Funakoshi just wrestling with the excerts he used from a book from the 70s in t
his article.

So his sources saying the same thing we all have been are from 20 years before MMA, but grappling in karate is a modern invention?

You still keep avoiding all the other forms we've walked you through the moves, the drills, the majority of people here, some having not trained in karate for years, telling you it was a part of their training many years before BJJ.

Again, you're one person whose training didn't have it. There's 5 or 6 here who have been training that way since long before MMA/BJJ.

Hard to say we only started doing it to appeal to MMA guys when:

1. We've been very clear it's not a complex grappling system like BJJ

2. We've been practicing and training like this since 20 years before MMA hit.

 

[TimoS]

Further, we ARE talking about Shotokan in this thread,

I would say that this thread WAS about Shotokan, but hasn't been for a long time anymore

 

[Hanzou]

I would say that this thread WAS about Shotokan, but hasn't been for a long time anymore

Well this entire dust up started because I said that Shotokan had no answer for the ground. So I'm not so sure we've completely left the topic.

 

[TimoS]

Well this entire dust up started because I said that Shotokan had no answer for the ground. So I'm not so sure we've completely left the topic.

True and the way I see it, the whole point of kicks, punches, "blocks" etc. is to avoid having to go to ground. I don't know of any Okinawan master who teaches ground fighting, at least nowhere near the level of e.g. judo or BJJ. Do they know the stuff? Probably, at least to some extent. Hell, some of them are even fairly high ranking judoka. It's just that all the bunkai demos from Okinawan masters I've seen are for when you're standing up. I don't think that's a coincidence. Can you use some of the stand-up stuff on the ground? Maybe, but mainly against an unskilled opponent, I'd guess. There are after all only a number of ways the human body can move, so some BJJ moves will probably resemble moves from kata, but, to me at least, that's coincidence and not design

 

[Hanzou]

Clearly you haven't actually read the article. The full excerpt is far more than Funakoshi remisnicisng. He explains how and we're he used it in his karate.

Abernathy even mentions more than Funakoshi just wrestling with the excerts he used from a book from the 70s in t
his article.

So his sources saying the same thing we all have been are from 20 years before MMA, but grappling in karate is a modern invention?

Abernethy also says that Karate grappling is largely forgotten, rarely taught, and crude. Given that, any high level grappling found being used by a Karateka would almost certainly be coming from an outside source.

Are you saying that Abernethy is wrong, and that he is just as "clueless" as I am about Karate grappling?

You still keep avoiding all the other forms we've walked you through the moves, the drills, the majority of people here, some having not trained in karate for years, telling you it was a part of their training many years before BJJ.

They can say whatever they like, that is merely anecdotal evidence. I need to see evidence that it is widespread, and exactly what level of ground fighting we're talking about. What Ando and Abernethy were doing in their vids were clearly Bjj techniques learned from Bjj.

Again, you're one person whose training didn't have it. There's 5 or 6 here who have been training that way since long before MMA/BJJ.

Ah, so once again, I'm the rare person who got no grappling training in my Karate dojo, despite Abernethy saying that such training is forgotten and rare. Implying that the majority of Karatekas out there ARE getting grappling training, and that my training was simply sub-par.

Hopefully K-man is reading this.

Hard to say we only started doing it to appeal to MMA guys when:

1. We've been very clear it's not a complex grappling system like BJJ

2. We've been practicing and training like this since 20 years before MMA hit.

If this grappling/ground fighting system has been utilized for that long, why is there literally no evidence of it beyond historical documents and accounts from Okinawa? Why is Abernethy saying that its largely forgotten and rarely taught? Why are there no Karate schools advertising this ground fighting on their site? Surely, a Karate style offering a simple, yet competent grappling system would be highly sought after.

 

[Drose427]

Abernethy also says that Karate grappling is largely forgotten, rarely taught, and crude. Given that, any high level grappling found being used by a Karateka would almost certainly be coming from an outside source.

Are you saying that Abernethy is wrong, and that he is just as "clueless" as I am about Karate grappling?



They can say whatever they like, that is merely anecdotal evidence. I need to see evidence that it is widespread, and exactly what level of ground fighting we're talking about. What Ando and Abernethy were doing in their vids were clearly Bjj techniques learned from Bjj.



Ah, so once again, I'm the rare person who got no grappling training in my Karate dojo, despite Abernethy saying that such training is forgotten and rare. Implying that the majority of Karatekas out there ARE getting grappling training, and that my training was simply sub-par.

Hopefully K-man is reading this.



If this grappling/ground fighting system has been utilized for that long, why is there literally no evidence of it beyond historical documents and accounts from Okinawa? Why is Abernethy saying that its largely forgotten and rarely taught? Why are there no Karate schools advertising this ground fighting on their site? Surely, a Karate style offering a simple, yet competent grappling system would be highly sought after.

You're the only one arguing it's a whole grappling system.

The rest of us have tried explaining to you its bunkai.

Does karate have a full standing grappling system like Judo just because we do take downs?

No.



Abernathy article is referring to full tegumi (free wrestling), he even says that the bunkai are still commonly taught In the article.

I also posted 2 videos of goju schools teaching and practicing full on tegumi. Which is more than many of us do. If you actually look, it isn't too difficult to find schools advertising some fashion of Tegumi or wrestling in their classes.

As we have said and reiterated, its bunkai that's taught.

You're looking for something not a single person here has claimed for validation that BJJ grappling is superior.

 

[Tez3]

but mainly against an unskilled opponent

That's what karate is designed for....civilian self defence against the unskilled. Staying on your feet as everyone knows is the ideal but one needs a plan B when things go pear shaped, ground work is plan B. It doesn't have to be pretty or hugely technical, it has to work and the grappling in karate works, it does the job you train for. It's not got the technical beauty of BJJ, it's rough and ready but it's there.

The point of the argument however is that one person who has scant knowledge of the subject has taken upon himself to decide exactly what karate is and that it is inferior to BJJ. Those who do have that knowledge of karate and who practice what they preach have disagreed unsurprisingly.

That someone hasn't seen something or doesn't have knowledge of something doesn't preclude that that something exists. I haven't been to America, I haven't been to New York, I haven't been to a baseball game but I have no doubts that all these exist and wouldn't dream of arguing otherwise. That a non or poorly trained in karate person insists that something doesn't exist purely on the basis that he hasn't seen it amazes me.
I know that in my karate there is ground work and grappling, why do I know that? Simply because the founder put it in there and demonstrated it to boot. So yes there is grappling in my karate. Karate by the way is a fairly generic term, much like using the word 'Hoover' to mean all makes of vacuum cleaners. Shotokan has shown, also from the founder of the style that there is grappling in it, why argue with the founders? You could argue they could have put in better techniques, more pretty moves, made it more joined up but you can't say it doesn't exist when the founders say it does, who would know better than they?
It may have been forgotten but has been rediscovered, that rediscovery has nothing to do with BJJ becoming popular as it's not popular everywhere. Boxing had throws and grappling but the current rules preclude that, doesn't mean it wasn't there just because we haven't seen it.

I haven't seen anyone on MT train or fight but that doesn't mean they can't.................

Something that is forgotten at the time of someone writing doesn't meant it stays forgotten. Something that is not trained much at the time of writing doesn't mean it stays not trained. Common sense tells us that when someone brings things to the attention of martial artists after a lot of research that resonates with what karateka think then it will become popular and revert to the original type of training. Many of us 'oldies' do remember early training where grappling was common, many of us have always trained with grappling in our karate.

 

[TimoS]

I think a problem in this discussion is the definition of grappling. Hanzou, you seem to think it means rolling on the ground, somewhat of the way BJJ or judo does it.

The way I see it, that isn't really part of traditional karate. Some modern instructors have incorporated it into what they teach, sure, but I guess it's mainly from BJJ. Now, some stand-up grappling, i.e. locks and throws etc., is very much a part of karate.

 

[Tez3]

I think a problem in this discussion is the definition of grappling. Hanzou, you seem to think it means rolling on the ground, somewhat of the way BJJ or judo does it.

The way I see it, that isn't really part of traditional karate. Some modern instructors have incorporated it into what they teach, sure, but I guess it's mainly from BJJ. Now, some stand-up grappling, i.e. locks and throws etc., is very much a part of karate.

Whose traditional karate though, as I said in mine we've always had grappling, meaning basic ground work not from BJJ but from traditional JJ. BJJ is relatively new compared to 'karate' and a lot of techniques predate BJJ.

 

[Drose427]

I think a problem in this discussion is the definition of grappling. Hanzou, you seem to think it means rolling on the ground, somewhat of the way BJJ or judo does it.

The way I see it, that isn't really part of traditional karate. Some modern instructors have incorporated it into what they teach, sure, but I guess it's mainly from BJJ. Now, some stand-up grappling, i.e. locks and throws etc., is very much a part of karate.

The problem is it is part of Karate, mostly okinawan. But it is there in a rough sense and has been.

In the early parts of this debate, many people here who trained long before the time of BJJS popularity were doing groundwork in their training. I believe Danny T says he was doing a former of live wrestling in his Shotokan school.


If you look, you can still find schools that do it. It's not that rare, there are schools advertising it as tegumi on their website. Usually, okinawan, but not always.

It's not BJJ, it's not anywhere near that refined. It's primitive, (sprawl, choke here or there, maimy though it's just a brief lock to get back to standing)

Most importantly, most of the time it isn't free wrestling. It's more like drilling.

We've also been clear over and over again, it's not comparable to BJJS competency on the ground. This has never been a "our grappling better" debate to anyone but Hanzou. Simply that simple, basic, rough groundstuff meant for the unskilled guy Is in here.

Nobodies claiming we invented any of this either. All the techniques came from Judo JJ and Okinawan wrestling.

One of the schools I posted do it as free wrestling, a member here said they did it that way long before BJJ.

Hanzou has a difficult time understanding the difference bunkai and live wrestling.

 

[Tez3]

Reading this article I can see why a BJJ person cannot see the techniques that are in karate. Some BJJ people cannot see how their style differs from JJ from whence came our techniques in karate, perhaps learning the difference between BJJ and JJ may help, of course though only if one is open to it and not intent on proving that BJJ is the best EVA..
Traditional Jiu-Jitsu Vs. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu A Thorough Look

 

[Danny T]

Hanzou
You are correct in that BJJ/GJJ/Wrestling/Judo all have more and a much higher level of groundwork than any of the martial systems 'I' have trained other than BJJ/GJJ/Wrestling etc. However, you do not know of what my training nor that of what anyone else has been.
My shotokan had standing grappling and ground fighting. You tell us no it didn't because your shotokan didn't.
My goju ryu what little I did had standing grappling and ground fighting. You say no because your karate didn't.
There are others who have stated the same in that they experienced grappling and ground fighting in their training. You say no because your karate didn't.

Why, what in your DNA will not allow you to accept that there are others who have gotten grappling and ground fight experience even though you did not?
No one has claimed our groundwork is or has been as extensive as yours yet you continue to argue we are wrong. Why do you argue vs something you have no idea as to others experiences.

I believe you have a excellence sense of BJJ and could be a good source of information for ground work. However your incessant arguing shows you are not wanting to discuss issues you are wanting argument. In discussion people acknowledge others opinions state theirs and the discussion move along. In every attempted discussion with you there is little discussion but argument. This forum is for the discussion of the martial arts. Within this community I have found fun, friendly and informational people as well as those simply wanting to learn more about their perspective arts and about others. With you it is always, in every discussion an argument. It does make for longer threads but when reviewing the many posts within these threads there is little more than argument, argument, argument and though it will mean little I for one am tired of it.

I hope all the best for you sir in your endeavors and training. Enjoy your journey.
Danny Terrell

 

[Hanzou]

I think a problem in this discussion is the definition of grappling. Hanzou, you seem to think it means rolling on the ground, somewhat of the way BJJ or judo does it.

The way I see it, that isn't really part of traditional karate. Some modern instructors have incorporated it into what they teach, sure, but I guess it's mainly from BJJ. Now, some stand-up grappling, i.e. locks and throws etc., is very much a part of karate.

No, the problem in this discussion is that Karate as it is commonly taught has no answer for someone taking you to the ground. Abernethy himself has said that grappling in its entirety is rarely taught in Karate. Not just ground fighting, but standing locks and throws;

The grappling & seizing aspects of karate are rarely practised today, but it is vital to understand that grappling was once as much a part of karate as the striking techniques most commonly associated with the art today. Shigeru Egami, in his book “The Heart of Karate-do” wrote, “There are also throwing techniques in karate… Throwing techniques were practised in my day, and I recommend that you reconsider them.” Gichin Funakoshi also makes reference to grappling techniques in “Karate-Do Kyohan”. Funakoshi wrote, “…in Karate, hitting, thrusting, and kicking are not the only methods, throwing techniques and pressure against joints are included.” All of karate’s grappling techniques are recorded within the katas, and it is within the katas we need to look if we wish to resurrect this vitally important part of the art - See more at: Tegumi - Karate s Forgotten Range Iain Abernethy

So I find it curious that I'm attacked for saying the same thing. I suppose it feels better when Abernethy says it.....

 

[Tez3]

So I find it curious that I'm attacked for saying the same thing. I suppose it feels better when Abernethy says it.....

You do realise that he wrote that in the past and the situation has improved since he wrote it, largely due to him I'll add? Something doesn't stay true for perpetuity because you want it to. Iain writes about resurrecting it ( therefore meaning it was there to start with, not that it didn't exist), well, guess what, it has been resurrected, imagine that eh!

Also 'rarely' practised doesn't mean not practiced at all which is what you've been telling us. You also said Iain just made up the stuff about grappling being in karate because of the MMA fervour. Make your mind up or perhaps better still just give it up, it surely can't mean that much to you, you can't be so invested in proving that there's no groundwork in karate that you cannot stop trying to wind people up?

We would have to adjust our thoughts about a lot of things, in science for example, if we held that what was once true is always true...things like the sun going around the Earth, that must be true because someone wrote and actually believed it once, also that the Earth was flat, that too must be still true according to your way of thinking. Illness is caused by 'bad humours', I can cite you a long article about that, it must still be true because why would anything change?

 

[Mephisto]

Honzou isn't the only one with these questions. Sorry I'm coming back in late but I've been training a lot the past couple of days. Abernathys article clearly states that grappling is uncommon in karate, I think honzou has reached a perfectly reasonable conclusion. I think largely it is safe to say that karate does not have an answer to ground grappling. That may be changing, but on the whole it seems your common karate school teaches no grappling. Also cross training is common among martial artists so I'm curious if the karate schools that have done grappling now and in the past owe that ground grappling to a prominent instructor within the system who trained a grappling style. If wado has had ground grappling all along and it is common within wado, surely theres video of it somewhere. I see no problem with karate adding ground fighting to the syllabus, it makes sense to reuse kata movements for a new purpose since that seems to be what bunkai is all about. The real problem here is weather karate or more specifically shortokan commonly does karate. There may be a few schools that do limited ground grappling there may have always been some schools that do limited grappling, but it doesn't seem to be commonplace.

 

[Hanzou]

You do realise that he wrote that in the past and the situation has improved since he wrote it, largely due to him I'll add? Something doesn't stay true for perpetuity because you want it to. Iain writes about resurrecting it ( therefore meaning it was there to start with, not that it didn't exist), well, guess what, it has been resurrected, imagine that eh!

So grappling in Karate went from being rare and forgotten to widely taught and understood in a little over 4 years?

You'll excuse me if I don't buy that.

Also 'rarely' practised doesn't mean not practiced at all which is what you've been telling us. You also said Iain just made up the stuff about grappling being in karate because of the MMA fervour. Make your mind up or perhaps better still just give it up, it surely can't mean that much to you, you can't be so invested in proving that there's no groundwork in karate that you cannot stop trying to wind people up?

Rarely practiced means that its rarely practiced. If its rare to see grappling in Karate schools, that means the vast majority of Karate schools DON'T teach it. I find it interesting that my training was considered poor when I mentioned that I never experienced grappling in my Shotokan training, yet now you acknowledge that up to at least 4 years ago someone teaching any type of grappling in a Karate dojo was rare.

Funny how that works.

We would have to adjust our thoughts about a lot of things, in science for example, if we held that what was once true is always true...things like the sun going around the Earth, that must be true because someone wrote and actually believed it once, also that the Earth was flat, that too must be still true according to your way of thinking. Illness is caused by 'bad humours', I can cite you a long article about that, it must still be true because why would anything change?

Usually it requires evidence to change a long-held belief. So far, solid evidence of native Karate ground fighting has been on the very light side of things. Some pictures or vids of Karateka actually doing it would help matters a bit.

 

[Tez3]

Oh so something doesn't exist unless it's on You Tube? Glad we cleared that up then. There was no life before video, history doesn't exist.
'If Wado' has grappling? The founder was a JJ master, he has stated that there is grappling in Wado but it can't be true because it's not on You Tube! What would the founder of Wado Ryu know about Wado Ryu eh! Well now I know that the founder was wrong all along and I was training Scotch Mist rather than karate with grappling in I'll go back to my cave, pull the animal skin over my head and just pretend I exist.

Oh did you know there's no self defence in BJJ? I train it and I've never been shown any self defence techniques at all, I've only seen Gi and No Gi comps in BJJ, there's absolutely no SD at all in BJJ, it's utterly useless, I've never seen anyone in a video defend themselves in a real attack with BJJ. It just doesn't exist.

 

[Tez3]

I think it's time to draw a close to this thread quite frankly. it's one thing to question people's beliefs, their ideas and their training practises but I think when people start disbelieving other posters when they say they train a certain way it's time to stop. It's calling people liars. Perhaps what I think is wrong, what I deduce from something is wrong, my beliefs can be called into question but when I and others say 'look we train karate with groundwork and grappling' and people tell us we don't do that because it doesn't exist, it's calling into question our integrity. I said I train Wado Ryu which has always had JJ in it because the founder put it there, why is that hard to believe or do you think I'm lying?
Iain Abernethy has been working on kata, grappling within karate and such like since the late 1990s, many of us knew about his work long before he published or made videos. He's not the only martial artist to do this, there's quite a few others. There have been people who have worked on translations of Japanese documents about martial arts, others who have researched the katas. It's an on going work being done by many. The founders of both Wado and Shotokan has said they put groundwork and grappling in, why disbelieve them? Are they liars then? it's what is being said and I for one don't like the tone of posts that angle things that way. If you don't accept what we say and we say it with honesty, I can't help that. Your disrespect in calling us liars is sad and benefits no one. As for the if it's not on video it doesn't exist argument, that's just even sadder. If people believe that they are missing so much that has happened in life and for that I'm sorry for them.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh so something doesn't exist unless it's on You Tube? Glad we cleared that up then. There was no life before video, history doesn't exist.

Didn't Iain Abernethy himself say that grappling was rarely taught in Karate? Didn't you yourself directly link that very article to this thread? So is Abernethy incorrect in stating that grappling is traditionally rarely taught in Karate, or are you going to continue to ignore that and pretend that I'm the only one saying it?

'If Wado' has grappling? The founder was a JJ master, he has stated that there is grappling in Wado but it can't be true because it's not on You Tube! What would the founder of Wado Ryu know about Wado Ryu eh! Well now I know that the founder was wrong all along and I was training Scotch Mist rather than karate with grappling in I'll go back to my cave, pull the animal skin over my head and just pretend I exist.

Japanese Jujutsu isn't Okinawan Tegumi. Wado Ryu isn't Shotokan Karate.

Oh did you know there's no self defence in BJJ? I train it and I've never been shown any self defence techniques at all, I've only seen Gi and No Gi comps in BJJ, there's absolutely no SD at all in BJJ, it's utterly useless, I've never seen anyone in a video defend themselves in a real attack with BJJ. It just doesn't exist.

Enjoy.

 

[Tez3]

ROFLMAO. The irony was lost wasn't it? Straight over the head.

I have nothing more to say about karate, grappling etc, you will believe what you want, you want to be right so much I can smell it. Fine you're right, happy now?
No, I didn't think so because your basic dissatisfaction is never going to be resolved until you accept that others have their experiences too and they are every bit as valid as your own. You can't call everyone you disagree with a liar, there's just too many of us. Anyway enjoy your training, live long and prosper.