Shotokan for self defence.

[Flying Crane]

Still waiting for answers to the earlier questions.

But this answer here is quite telling.

Still. Waiting.

 

[K-man]

The movements he's doing are common in Bjj, an art that he's trained in. What's more, they're the fundamental stuff that you'd learn in your first weeks at any reputable Bjj school, which is exactly what Ando claimed to do. The idea that you could derive such complex movements and transitions from the opening of a completely unrelated kata is simply silly and nonsensical.

And you are the only one suggesting it so I assume you are the one being silly and twisting the facts.

What's more, the only example I've seen of anyone saying that those movements are based on Shotokan kata is that single video from Ando himself, and frankly I don't believe that even he is making those claims. If he is, please post those claims. From the video I saw, he made it pretty clear that all of this dawned on him while he was practicing Bjj.

And everyone accepts that.

Bull. If that's true, where is it in Karate beyond Ando's vid? I did Shotokan for many years, and there was never a point where we got on the ground and started performing escapes from the mount on each other. Even after learning Tekki Shodan, no one ever said anything about being able to apply the kata on the ground. Again, the Ando video is the first, and only bunkai I've ever seen that states that Tekki Shodan can be applied from the ground range. The problem is that his entire movement set is pretty much exactly how a white belt would perform basic Bjj.

Firstly you stated earlier you never had any bunkai in your Shotokan training and as I said earlier, I have heard you could use kata bunkai for ground fighting but had never seen it. But the fact remains, bunkai is a personal thing. The applications you have for one persons bunkai is different to another's. If someone is clever enough to develop a bunkai for Naihanchi incorporating BJJ techniques we should be applauding as that is what bunkai really is.

Karate/Tegumi/JJJ taught the Guard and Elbow escape where and when exactly? Historically, JJJ and Judo have never held ground fighting in high regard. Kano himself never made it a secret that he preferred Nagewaza over Newaza, and Bjj style-ground fighting is practically unheard of in classical JJJ, and was neglected for decades in Judo. As for Maeda, the father of Bjj, he left Japan before Funakoshi arrived in Japan to teach Shotokan, and I have never heard of any link between classical JJJ, Kano Juijitsu, and Okinawan folk wrestling/Tegumi until this thread.

I'm not sure who linked Tegumi to anything. I certainly didn't. Tegumi is a regular part of my training but it had absolutely nothing to do with BJJ.

Again, all of this just smacks of a bunch of Karate guys simply incorporating modern Bjj and Judo and saying their art is "complete" because their students are demanding an answer to MMA.

Crap! That is only your opinion. I haven't heard or seen anyone make that claim.

Interesting, because the wrestling root of Bjj comes from Sumo and western Catch Wrestling, not Okinawan Tegumi. Further, Maeda traveled to the west to learn Catch Wrestling. Catch didn't arrive in Japan until much later.

Again Tegumi is nothing to do with BJJ. Get a life. Stick to facts and stop throwing in claims that no one else had made.

You can't have it both ways here. Either you're claiming that Karate has an active and competitive form of submission grappling, or you're saying that a bunch of Karatekas are just messing around with the basics of grappling.

Karate never had and never will have submission grappling. That is sport and although a lot of karate has gone down that track traditional karate has not. Karate has always been able to use techniques on the ground, certainly basic ones but with strikes and chokes. There is no rule that I have seen that says karate cannot develop to maintain its edge. If that involves adopting certain techniques from BJJ then I have no problem with that. If someone is clever enough to include those techniques into a kata bunkai, then more power to his arm.

 

[K-man]

Sumo came from tegumi....if you looked at the info on tegumi we gave you you'd have known that.

In fairness, I think it is more likely that the Okinawan version of Sumo may have come from Tegumi, but not the Japanese version.

 

[Hanzou]

Sumo came from tegumi....if you looked at the info on tegumi we gave you you'd have known that.

Sumo did NOT come from Tegumi. We have evidence of Sumo wrestling taking place in Japan as early as the third century AD. Is there even evidence of Tegumi existing in Okinawa during that period? Much less being codified enough for the Japanese to derive Sumo wrestling from it?

Seriously, these claims are becoming more and more outlandish.

We gave you 4 other groundfighting/ground defense bunkai from other forms than Shodan.

Where? You gave me a reading list. Where are videos of Karatekas practicing this high level ground fighting? Ando was performing high level ground fighting, despite it being very basic. So where else can I find it?

For someone who trained extensively in Shotokan, you've always had trouble understanding bunkai and applications.

I trained in Shotokan before this grappling Bunkai craze hit the art (late 90s). Back when I practiced Shotokan, a punch was a punch, and a kick was a kick. We didn't believe that a kick and a punch followed by an elbow strike was an upside-down spinning pile driver.

I think some have simply taken this Bunkai business a bit too far in an effort to make Karate all things to all people. Even Abernathy himself states that Karate is mostly taught as a kicking and punching system, and grappling is rarely if ever explored. That matches my experience perfectly. This Karate that you mention is completely alien to me,

Even know after we've explained it, you're still trying to say that we're telling you there's this full system of grappling and nobody has said that other than you.

Does BJJ have an "entire system of striking" because classic BJJ had a few strikes? No.

Really? You said that Ando's Bunkai was commonly practiced in legitimate dojos around the world. You said that you guys are actively practicing ground fighting. Sounds like a full system of grappling to me.

Where is anyone saying that Bjj has an entire system of striking? I'm certainly not. Where did I say that my Bjj class is punching, kicking, and throwing elbow strikes? That's not what we do in Bjj, and its a limit of the system that I have no problem admitting exists. I wish Karate practitioners around these parts could do the same, instead of pretending that every thing under the sun is hidden within the movements of kata.

 

[K-man]

For someone who trained extensively in Shotokan, you've always had trouble understanding bunkai and applications.

He didn't. He trained as a junior and achieved the rank of Shodan. That is simply the end of the training of basics. Everything Hanzou had described since relates to kihon, no advanced training has ever been mentioned.

 

[Hanzou]

And you are the only one suggesting it so I assume you are the one being silly and twisting the facts.


And everyone accepts that.

Clearly you're not reading Drose's posts.

Firstly you stated earlier you never had any bunkai in your Shotokan training and as I said earlier, I have heard you could use kata bunkai for ground fighting but had never seen it. But the fact remains, bunkai is a personal thing. The applications you have for one persons bunkai is different to another's. If someone is clever enough to develop a bunkai for Naihanchi incorporating BJJ techniques we should be applauding as that is what bunkai really is.

I have no problem applauding someone who believes that you can derive Bjj techniques from Tekki Shodan (I personally don't see it, but whatever). What I have issue with is the belief that Tekki Shodan has always had those techniques hidden within it, and that a Karateka could pull those techniques and make them effective with no Bjj training at all.

I'm not sure who linked Tegumi to anything. I certainly didn't. Tegumi is a regular part of my training but it had absolutely nothing to do with BJJ.

Karate never had and never will have submission grappling. That is sport and although a lot of karate has gone down that track traditional karate has not. Karate has always been able to use techniques on the ground, certainly basic ones but with strikes and chokes. There is no rule that I have seen that says karate cannot develop to maintain its edge. If that involves adopting certain techniques from BJJ then I have no problem with that. If someone is clever enough to include those techniques into a kata bunkai, then more power to his arm.

Again, you're not reading Drose's posts.

 

[Tez3]

It's Iain ABERNETHY. One should at least be precise.

I was learning Bunkai before the 90s, in the 70s in fact. We also had grappling techniques in it then too. My style, Wado Ryu has always had groundwork in it, it was put there by the founder who certainly didn't put it in there to compete with MMA. Iain Abernethy doesn't say that there is no grappling in karate, he says there is but then he also started in Wado so he knows there is grappling whether it's taught much is a different subject.
This argument has gone on for months now, good karatekas have tried to explain what we do, it isn't sinking in, it's like trying to herd cats quite frankly. Only cats at least can be excused they aren't trying to be disrespectful, they are just being cats.

 

[Drose427]

I trained in Shotokan before this grappling Bunkai craze hit the art (late 90s). Back when I practiced Shotokan, a punch was a punch, and a kick was a kick. We didn't believe that a kick and a punch followed by an elbow strike was an upside-down spinning pile driver.

.

Forms were never as simple as "a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick". That has nothing to do with the times, thats a fault of your school.

Really? You said that Ando's Bunkai was commonly practiced in legitimate dojos around the world. You said that you guys are actively practicing ground fighting. Sounds like a full system of grappling to me.

Where is anyone saying that Bjj has an entire system of striking? I'm certainly not. Where did I say that my Bjj class is punching, kicking, and throwing elbow strikes? That's not what we do in Bjj, and its a limit of the system that I have no problem admitting exists. I wish Karate practitioners around these parts could do the same, instead of pretending that every thing under the sun is hidden within the movements of kata.

No, we've said there were applications or bunkai. That when it is practiced, its as drilling, not live wrestling. Basic concepts like sprawling or getting back up or the occasional choke does not imply a "full complex grappling system" If us saying theres rudimentary drilling is the same as "having a full system" that logic means BJJ having a few strikes means BJJ must have a full striking system.

 

[Hanzou]

Forms were never as simple as "a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick". That has nothing to do with the times, thats a fault of your school.



No, we've said there were applications or bunkai. That when it is practiced, its as drilling, not live wrestling. Basic concepts like sprawling or getting back up or the occasional choke does not imply a "full complex grappling system" If us saying theres rudimentary drilling is the same as "having a full system" that logic means BJJ having a few strikes means BJJ must have a full striking system.

The Ando tekki shodan video was another where the movement he used to escape was the same movement in the opening of the form as taught in his association. This movement long precedes BJJ and he didnt teach the BJJ way of doing it. He taught it from the ground exactly the same way as he did standing.

When Karate/tegumi/JJJ taught that specific movement for many, many years before BJJ existed, its hard to claim that movement as BJJ. Theyre in Karate because of the Wrestling and JJJ influence in Karate, and are still common in Okinawan schools.

So which is it? You're sending mixed messages here.

 

[Tez3]

Copied in full from Iain Abernethy's article in 'USA Dojo' Iain started his Bunkai training and teaching before the MMA craze started btw.


"To adequately defend yourself in a real fight you will need a knowledge of all the various ranges of combat. In a sporting contest there is no need for skills at every range, e.g. a boxer does not need to know how to kick in order to win his bouts, nor will a judoka need a knowledge of punching. However, in a real fight the opponent will not ‘play by the rules’, and if you should find yourself in an unfavourable position there will be no referee to interject and to restart the bout at a range where the combatants know what they are doing! As Geoff Thompson once said, “You can be a 10th Dan on your feet, and a white-belt on your back.”

Karate is most commonly thought of as a kicking and punching system. The scientific principles involved in karate’s striking methods make them very powerful. But what are we to do if our opponent gets inside punching range and we begin to grapple, or worse still, end up fighting on the floor? Karate – as it is commonly practised – is at its best when applied at middle to long range. The unfortunate but true fact is that most real fights begin close up and almost always include some form of grappling. So why doesn’t modern karate include grappling in its curriculum? It stands to reason that the older versions of the martial arts would cover every range, because to omit any range could very well lead to defeat in combat. So if real self-defence skills are our aim perhaps we should look at the older versions of karate? Within the katas are recorded the original fighting methods of karate. The katas record the original karate system and hence the katas contain techniques and concepts for use at every range, including grappling.

The grappling & seizing aspects of karate are rarely practised today, but it is vital to understand that grappling was once as much a part of karate as the striking techniques most commonly associated with the art today. Shigeru Egami, in his book “The Heart of Karate-do” wrote, “There are also throwing techniques in karate… Throwing techniques were practised in my day, and I recommend that you reconsider them.” Gichin Funakoshi also makes reference to grappling techniques in “Karate-Do Kyohan”. Funakoshi wrote, “…in Karate, hitting, thrusting, and kicking are not the only methods, throwing techniques and pressure against joints are included.” All of karate’s grappling techniques are recorded within the katas, and it is within the katas we need to look if we wish to resurrect this vitally important part of the art.

Tegumi (grappling hands) was the term used to describe the grappling aspect of old style karate. “Tegumi” is also used to describe an indigenous style of wrestling practised in Okinawa. It is believed that the native wrestling art of Tegumi, along with the Kempo systems brought to Okinawa by the Chinese, were forerunners of the art that eventually became known as karate. Some say that this is reflected in the name chosen for the art. “Karate” (which could also be pronounced as "to-de") was made up of two characters, the first meaning “China”, to represent the Chinese Kempo influence, and “Te” meaning “hand”, to represent the Tegumi (grappling) influence. As an aside, a differing initial character is used today for “Kara” which means “Empty” – different meaning but pronounced the same; like “which” & “witch” – but originally the character for “China” was used.

Before 1900, karate placed just as much emphasis on the Tegumi elements of the art as it did upon the striking. Karate training would include throws, joint-locks, chokes, strangles, grips, counters etc. In fact, in karate’s early days many practitioners would test their skills in bouts of Kakedameshi (see 'Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters' by Shoshin Nagamine - Translated by Patrick McCarthy). The combatants would interlock their arms and the aim was to knock your opponent to the floor using both Tegumi and striking techniques. These bouts would include a wide array of karate techniques (grappling & striking) and were very different indeed from the striking only sparring of today. In the book, ‘Ryukyu Karate Kempo’ Choki Motobu wrote, “Kumite is an actual fight using many basic styles of kata to grapple with the opponent.” It is apparent that the karate practitioners of the past would utilise grappling techniques from the kata in their training and sparring.

At around 1905 – when karate underwent many changes such that it would be suitable for the physical education for Okinawa’s school children – the regular practice of the more dangerous techniques was discouraged. This rationalisation of karate training meant that many aspects of Tegumi were abandoned. It is mainly because of this ‘sanitising’ of karate that grappling is no longer a common sight in the majority of today’s karate dojos. However, if we wish to practice karate as a complete system of fighting, we should endeavour to include Tegumi in our practice. The wonderful thing is that the katas provide a living record of these methods! If we study the katas in sufficient depth, all aspects of the original fighting art of karate are there for the taking (including Tegumi). Within the katas there are a great deal of grappling techniques in addition to the commonly taught striking methods, with the majority of kata techniques showing the integrated use of both methods. If fact, Toshihisa Sofue 7th Dan has stated that “Eighty percent of karate kata is throwing and locking.” And yet you rarely see throws and locks in today’s dojos!

There are various sub-divisions of Grappling / Tegumi; Tuidi (Grabbing), Nage-Waza (Throws & Takedowns), Kansetsu-Waza (Joint-Locks), Shime-waza (Chokes & Strangles), Ne-Waza (Ground-Fighting), etc. All of which can be found within the katas. If we study the katas to a sufficient depth, we can begin to employ these highly potent methods in our everyday training such that we will not be at a total loss if the fight goes to close-range (as it nearly always does!).

Many Tegumi techniques are fairly brutal. A simple and very effective grappling method can be found within Seishan / Hangetsu kata. You’ll recognise the technique demonstrated in the picture that accompanies this article as the application of the inward pull prior to the first 180-degree turn. The index fingers are inserted into the opponent’s mouth and pulled apart (commonly called “fish-hooking”). It is important to keep sufficient tension in the opponent’s cheeks such that they are unable to turn the head and bite the fingers. If I were to pull strongly to the sides – as per the Shotokan version of the katas – I would cause severe damage to my opponent’s face. Obviously the use of this technique would only be justified in very extreme circumstances.

It is important to understand that the katas are first and foremost a record of combative concepts and principles. These concepts and principles are infinitely more important than the techniques used to demonstrate them. We should study the grappling methods of the kata to such a depth that we are able to adapt the techniques – in line with the principles upon which they rest – for use in whatever circumstances we may find ourselves. Master Chotoku Kyan (1870-1945) – one of his favourite katas being Seishan – adapted the Fish-Hooking technique shown in the picture to good effect during a challenge bout with a 6th Dan Judoka called Shinzou Ishida. Master Kyan was visiting mainland Japan in order to give a karate demonstration. Ishida, being a skilled grappler, had asked Kyan for a match because he wished to ascertain the value of karate. When Ishida reached out to seize his opponent, Kyan slipped to the side and thrust his thumb into Ishida’s mouth. Kyan closed his fingers, stamped on Ishida’s foot and then pulled the off balance judoka to the floor by his cheek. Kyan then delivered a hammer fist to Ishida’s jaw, stopping it just short of the target. Ishida was impressed by Master Kyan’s skill and went onto receive daily instruction from him until he returned to Okinawa. This is a fine example of how the Tegumi principles recorded within the katas can be used to good effect.

To be an effective fighter it is imperative that you have a knowledge of all ranges of fighting. Hence, it is vital that Tegumi forms part of our practice, just as it did for the masters of the past who formulated karate. Thankfully, those same masters recorded their grappling methods in the katas they developed. The key thing is to ensure that you study your katas to a sufficient depth. Thanks for taking the time to read this article. I hope you found it interesting." Iain Abernethy.

 

[Drose427]

So which is it? You're sending mixed messages here.

no I'm not. Youre having a real issue discerning bunkai with free-rolling/live wrestling within a grappling style.

 

[Drose427]

There are various sub-divisions of Grappling / Tegumi; Tuidi (Grabbing), Nage-Waza (Throws & Takedowns), Kansetsu-Waza (Joint-Locks), Shime-waza (Chokes & Strangles), Ne-Waza (Ground-Fighting), etc. All of which can be found within the katas. If we study the katas to a sufficient depth, we can begin to employ these highly potent methods in our everyday training such that we will not be at a total loss if the fight goes to close-range (as it nearly always does!).


It is important to understand that the katas are first and foremost a record of combative concepts and principles. These concepts and principles are infinitely more important than the techniques used to demonstrate them. We should study the grappling methods of the kata to such a depth that we are able to adapt the techniques – in line with the principles upon which they rest – for use in whatever circumstances we may find ourselves. Master Chotoku Kyan (1870-1945) – one of his favourite katas being Seishan – adapted the Fish-Hooking technique shown in the picture to good effect during a challenge bout with a 6th Dan Judoka called Shinzou Ishida. Master Kyan was visiting mainland Japan in order to give a karate demonstration. Ishida, being a skilled grappler, had asked Kyan for a match because he wished to ascertain the value of karate. When Ishida reached out to seize his opponent, Kyan slipped to the side and thrust his thumb into Ishida’s mouth. Kyan closed his fingers, stamped on Ishida’s foot and then pulled the off balance judoka to the floor by his cheek. Kyan then delivered a hammer fist to Ishida’s jaw, stopping it just short of the target. Ishida was impressed by Master Kyan’s skill and went onto receive daily instruction from him until he returned to Okinawa. This is a fine example of how the Tegumi principles recorded within the katas can be used to good effect.

To be an effective fighter it is imperative that you have a knowledge of all ranges of fighting. Hence, it is vital that Tegumi forms part of our practice, just as it did for the masters of the past who formulated karate. Thankfully, those same masters recorded their grappling methods in the katas they developed. The key thing is to ensure that you study your katas to a sufficient depth. Thanks for taking the time to read this article. I hope you found it interesting." Iain Abernethy.

for added measure!

 

[Tez3]

Another good read concerning Karate, specifically Shotokan, Bunkai and grappling.
http://www.norwichshotokan.co.uk/downloads/Thesis.pdf

 

[K-man]

I have no problem applauding someone who believes that you can derive Bjj techniques from Tekki Shodan (I personally don't see it, but whatever). What I have issue with is the belief that Tekki Shodan has always had those techniques hidden within it, and that a Karateka could pull those techniques and make them effective with no Bjj training at all.

Again, you're not reading Drose's posts.

Firstly, I have read all of Drose's posts and they are pretty close to the mark. Yours, on the other hand, are always twisting the facts to give a distorted picture.

This post is a prime example. Nobody, but nobody, is suggesting that any BJJ technique is hidden inside any traditional kata but this has nothing to do with kata. As many of us have tried to explain time after time, bunkai is the personal interpretation of kata. To fulfil the requirements of bunkai the succession of techniques is such that if the first technique fails the flow is to the next technique automatically. What that technique is is irrelevant as long as the movement remains faithful to the kata. If a practitioner is astute enough to recognise a technique fits the criteria then it is his interpretation of the kata, even though the kata remains the same. If someone like Ando is able to craft his BJJ skills into a bunkai for ground fighting then I believe he would possibly be the first to achieve, it and it is a formidable achievement.

 

[Hanzou]

Copied in full from Iain Abernethy's article in 'USA Dojo' Iain started his Bunkai training and teaching before the MMA craze started btw.

However, that article though was written in 2010, during the height of the MMA craze.

 

[Drose427]

However, that article though was written in 2010, during the height of the MMA craze.

Sooooo no instead of "understanding what karate is" abernethy is lying and making up examples from before that time simply to appeal?

You changed opinion of him pretty quickly

 

[Tez3]

However, that article though was written in 2010, during the height of the MMA craze.

Ah more Deja Moo......

 

[K-man]

Copied in full from Iain Abernethy's article in 'USA Dojo' Iain started his Bunkai training and teaching before the MMA craze started btw.


"To adequately defend yourself in a real fight you will need a knowledge of all the various ranges of combat. In a sporting contest there is no need for skills at every range, e.g. a boxer does not need to know how to kick in order to win his bouts, nor will a judoka need a knowledge of punching. However, in a real fight the opponent will not ‘play by the rules’, and if you should find yourself in an unfavourable position there will be no referee to interject and to restart the bout at a range where the combatants know what they are doing! As Geoff Thompson once said, “You can be a 10th Dan on your feet, and a white-belt on your back.”

Karate is most commonly thought of as a kicking and punching system. The scientific principles involved in karate’s striking methods make them very powerful. But what are we to do if our opponent gets inside punching range and we begin to grapple, or worse still, end up fighting on the floor? Karate – as it is commonly practised – is at its best when applied at middle to long range. The unfortunate but true fact is that most real fights begin close up and almost always include some form of grappling. So why doesn’t modern karate include grappling in its curriculum? It stands to reason that the older versions of the martial arts would cover every range, because to omit any range could very well lead to defeat in combat. So if real self-defence skills are our aim perhaps we should look at the older versions of karate? Within the katas are recorded the original fighting methods of karate. The katas record the original karate system and hence the katas contain techniques and concepts for use at every range, including grappling.

The grappling & seizing aspects of karate are rarely practised today, but it is vital to understand that grappling was once as much a part of karate as the striking techniques most commonly associated with the art today. Shigeru Egami, in his book “The Heart of Karate-do” wrote, “There are also throwing techniques in karate… Throwing techniques were practised in my day, and I recommend that you reconsider them.” Gichin Funakoshi also makes reference to grappling techniques in “Karate-Do Kyohan”. Funakoshi wrote, “…in Karate, hitting, thrusting, and kicking are not the only methods, throwing techniques and pressure against joints are included.” All of karate’s grappling techniques are recorded within the katas, and it is within the katas we need to look if we wish to resurrect this vitally important part of the art.

Tegumi (grappling hands) was the term used to describe the grappling aspect of old style karate. “Tegumi” is also used to describe an indigenous style of wrestling practised in Okinawa. It is believed that the native wrestling art of Tegumi, along with the Kempo systems brought to Okinawa by the Chinese, were forerunners of the art that eventually became known as karate. Some say that this is reflected in the name chosen for the art. “Karate” (which could also be pronounced as "to-de") was made up of two characters, the first meaning “China”, to represent the Chinese Kempo influence, and “Te” meaning “hand”, to represent the Tegumi (grappling) influence. As an aside, a differing initial character is used today for “Kara” which means “Empty” – different meaning but pronounced the same; like “which” & “witch” – but originally the character for “China” was used.

Before 1900, karate placed just as much emphasis on the Tegumi elements of the art as it did upon the striking. Karate training would include throws, joint-locks, chokes, strangles, grips, counters etc. In fact, in karate’s early days many practitioners would test their skills in bouts of Kakedameshi (see 'Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters' by Shoshin Nagamine - Translated by Patrick McCarthy). The combatants would interlock their arms and the aim was to knock your opponent to the floor using both Tegumi and striking techniques. These bouts would include a wide array of karate techniques (grappling & striking) and were very different indeed from the striking only sparring of today. In the book, ‘Ryukyu Karate Kempo’ Choki Motobu wrote, “Kumite is an actual fight using many basic styles of kata to grapple with the opponent.” It is apparent that the karate practitioners of the past would utilise grappling techniques from the kata in their training and sparring.

At around 1905 – when karate underwent many changes such that it would be suitable for the physical education for Okinawa’s school children – the regular practice of the more dangerous techniques was discouraged. This rationalisation of karate training meant that many aspects of Tegumi were abandoned. It is mainly because of this ‘sanitising’ of karate that grappling is no longer a common sight in the majority of today’s karate dojos. However, if we wish to practice karate as a complete system of fighting, we should endeavour to include Tegumi in our practice. The wonderful thing is that the katas provide a living record of these methods! If we study the katas in sufficient depth, all aspects of the original fighting art of karate are there for the taking (including Tegumi). Within the katas there are a great deal of grappling techniques in addition to the commonly taught striking methods, with the majority of kata techniques showing the integrated use of both methods. If fact, Toshihisa Sofue 7th Dan has stated that “Eighty percent of karate kata is throwing and locking.” And yet you rarely see throws and locks in today’s dojos!

There are various sub-divisions of Grappling / Tegumi; Tuidi (Grabbing), Nage-Waza (Throws & Takedowns), Kansetsu-Waza (Joint-Locks), Shime-waza (Chokes & Strangles), Ne-Waza (Ground-Fighting), etc. All of which can be found within the katas. If we study the katas to a sufficient depth, we can begin to employ these highly potent methods in our everyday training such that we will not be at a total loss if the fight goes to close-range (as it nearly always does!).

Many Tegumi techniques are fairly brutal. A simple and very effective grappling method can be found within Seishan / Hangetsu kata. You’ll recognise the technique demonstrated in the picture that accompanies this article as the application of the inward pull prior to the first 180-degree turn. The index fingers are inserted into the opponent’s mouth and pulled apart (commonly called “fish-hooking”). It is important to keep sufficient tension in the opponent’s cheeks such that they are unable to turn the head and bite the fingers. If I were to pull strongly to the sides – as per the Shotokan version of the katas – I would cause severe damage to my opponent’s face. Obviously the use of this technique would only be justified in very extreme circumstances.

It is important to understand that the katas are first and foremost a record of combative concepts and principles. These concepts and principles are infinitely more important than the techniques used to demonstrate them. We should study the grappling methods of the kata to such a depth that we are able to adapt the techniques – in line with the principles upon which they rest – for use in whatever circumstances we may find ourselves. Master Chotoku Kyan (1870-1945) – one of his favourite katas being Seishan – adapted the Fish-Hooking technique shown in the picture to good effect during a challenge bout with a 6th Dan Judoka called Shinzou Ishida. Master Kyan was visiting mainland Japan in order to give a karate demonstration. Ishida, being a skilled grappler, had asked Kyan for a match because he wished to ascertain the value of karate. When Ishida reached out to seize his opponent, Kyan slipped to the side and thrust his thumb into Ishida’s mouth. Kyan closed his fingers, stamped on Ishida’s foot and then pulled the off balance judoka to the floor by his cheek. Kyan then delivered a hammer fist to Ishida’s jaw, stopping it just short of the target. Ishida was impressed by Master Kyan’s skill and went onto receive daily instruction from him until he returned to Okinawa. This is a fine example of how the Tegumi principles recorded within the katas can be used to good effect.

To be an effective fighter it is imperative that you have a knowledge of all ranges of fighting. Hence, it is vital that Tegumi forms part of our practice, just as it did for the masters of the past who formulated karate. Thankfully, those same masters recorded their grappling methods in the katas they developed. The key thing is to ensure that you study your katas to a sufficient depth. Thanks for taking the time to read this article. I hope you found it interesting." Iain Abernethy.

Are you sure Iain wrote this? It's pretty much word for word what I have been trying to say to Hanzou.

But, I keep returning to the term 'advanced beginner'. You can train the kihon for fifty years and get to 8th or 9th dan but if your understanding hasn't changed over your years of training you really know very little. It comes down to which is better, twenty years of practising the same thing over and over or twenty years of training and expanding your understanding?

 

[Hanzou]

Sooooo no instead of "understanding what karate is" abernethy is lying and making up examples from before that time simply to appeal?

You changed opinion of him pretty quickly

Where did I say he was lying? I'm simply pointing out that Karate just happened to rediscover its grappling roots during the height of the MMA craze where grappling is of tantamount importance to many MA practitioners and potential students.

 

[Tez3]

Are you sure Iain wrote this?

I'm sure lol, but you need read it in Iain's Cumbrian accent, have you heard his podcasts?

On the subject of karate trying to compete with MMA, in the UK at least MMA ( sadly I have to say) isn't as popular as traditional martial arts when it comes to people who actually train so MMA isn't considered here as a rival for students. MMA is fairly popular to watch but even the UFC doesn't get full houses, small local shows with local fighters can do well but no one makes money from MMA either promoting or teaching. We have a few big gyms who teach MMA but will also have fitness classes and traditional classes as well. for training the traditional styles are still well out in the lead for students, no one needs to make stuff up about karate to get students in. We also have here traditional karate places that encourage students to train MMA, Neil Grove is an example of this. We simply don't have the competition for students that perhaps the US has. We also don't have many 'commercial' schools or chains of schools either. BJJ is becoming more popular but we've also got a big Judo base here, always have done, it's been here since the 19th century as has traditional JJ.
To suggest that Iain is making things up because he needs to compete for students, is risible quite frankly and shows a complete lack of understanding of martial arts in the UK. I wish we could get more students to MMA classes but it's far harder than you think, traditional styles still have the edge though the two are closer in understanding than perhaps they are in the States.