Shinkyokushin vs Shito ryu for self defence ?

[Paul_D]

Are you seriously going to argue that her ability to fight off an attacker isn't self defense?

Yes, fighting is essentially what happens when your self defence skills have failed. Are you seriously going to argue that to only possible out come to a self defence situation is to fight?

As Chris rightly says, “Fighting is not self defence boys”. I know I have been over this with you before, but I’m feeling generous, so I’m going to give it one more go at educating you before I fly the white flag.

The story you are talking about is this:-

Woman used karate to turn the tables on her violent attacker

Yes, she beat him up, but ask yourself WHY did she NEED to beat him up? Because she lacked the necessary self defence skills to stop the situation BEFORE it got to the point where it became a fight.

Fighting, self defence, and martial arts are three different things. Yes, there will be some skills which cross over (a good punch is always a good punch) but the point which is repeatedly being explain to you is that fighting is not self defence, and that merely being a good fighter does not automatically translate into being good at self defence. In fact, some of the skills you will learn to be successful at fighting are the exact opposite of the skills needed for successful self defence.

Yes she got lucky this time, but what about next time? Maybe not so lucky, no fighter however skilled can win every fight. And then she ends up beaten, raped, dead or all three. What about instead she learns self defence? i.e. she learns The Rituals of Violence and therefore learns how rapists select their victims so she knows what they are looking for, and can therefore avoid those things and thus lessen her chances of being selected as a victim next time? How about she learns Target Hardening, and knowing that they look for women wearing headphones, (as she was) so they can’t be heard when they come up behind her to attack, so that she learns no longer wears headphones? Therefore lessen her chances of being selected as a victim next time. How about she learns the Threat Awareness & Evaluation, specifically Coopers Colour Codes, which would teach her to take more notice of who and what is going around her, meaning the next time she is being assessed as a possible victim the criminal notches she is “switched on” and then he takes the decides to let her go by and waiting for an easier victim.

THIS is self defence and THIS has nothing to do with fighting and THIS will not be taught in Kyokushn or Shito-Ryu or bjj or mma or (insert name of martial art here) class.

It is clear from your numerous posts in numerous threads on the subject that (like many male martial artist, particularly young male martial artist), you are only able to see self defence in terms of bar fights or street brawls. You cannot see any other outcome to a self defence situation other than it descending into a street fight. But 99% of self defence has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with “fighting” or physical techniques what so ever. Just google Miquel Falcao & Kaue Mena for a prime example. Why did their situation end up in a street brawl? Because fighting did not teach them the 99% of self defence skills required to prevent the situation escalating to the point where the only outcome was a fight.

I am unsure how many times and how many people and how many different ways in how many different threads, we need to go over this before you begin to understand. Surely at some point you must step back and think, with so many people telling me the same thing over and over that maybe, just maybe there might be something I’m are not grasping and I might, just might therefore be wrong?

As a one final throw of the dice I present to you this free audio book, a full and clear explanation of why martial arts, self defence, and fighting are not the same.

The Martial Map (Free Audio Book) | Iain Abernethy

If, after listening to this, you still do not “get it”, then please stop talking about self defence, because you will never understand what is it, or is not.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes, fighting is essentially what happens when your self defence skills have failed. Are you seriously going to argue that to only possible out come to a self defence situation is to fight?

As Chris rightly says, “Fighting is not self defence boys”. I know I have been over this with you before, but I’m feeling generous, so I’m going to give it one more go at educating you before I fly the white flag.

The story you are talking about is this:-

Woman used karate to turn the tables on her violent attacker

Yes, she beat him up, but ask yourself WHY did she NEED to beat him up? Because she lacked the necessary self defense skills to stop the situation BEFORE it got to the point where it became a fight.

Or maybe because she got tackled from behind in broad daylight, and was forced to fight for her life?

Why did she need to beat him up? Because there's predators out there (typically men) who seek to attack other people. Fortunately, this girl had the ability and will through training karate that allowed her to beat back her attacker (read: DEFEND herself) and survive.

Fighting, self defense, and martial arts are three different things.

Only if you're trying to split hairs, or sell a book.

 

[Koshiki]

Fighting, self defense, and martial arts are three different things.

Only if you're trying to split hairs, or sell a book.

I wouldn't call it splitting hairs, more like looking at a landscape and discerning which part is sky, which is hills, and which is a lake. It's all a landscape, but if you think the lake is not different from the hills, you'll find it's difficult to walk on water. The same might be said for trying to walk through the air, swim across the hills or the sky, or fly your plane through the lake or hill.

Surely at some point you must step back and think, with so many people telling me the same thing over and over that maybe, just maybe there might be something I’m are not grasping and I might, just might therefore be wrong?

As Shotonoob would undoubtedly say, "Good luck with that."

 

[Hanzou]

I wouldn't call it splitting hairs, more like looking at a landscape and discerning which part is sky, which is hills, and which is a lake. It's all a landscape, but if you think the lake is not different from the hills, you'll find it's difficult to walk on water. The same might be said for trying to walk through the air, swim across the hills or the sky, or fly your plane through the lake or hill.

I never said that the aspects Paul is talking about isn't part of self defense. Im saying that fighting ability is a part of that equation.

Women get attacked whether or not they're wearing headphones.

 

[Koshiki]

I never said that the aspects Paul is talking about isn't part of self defense. Im saying that fighting ability is a part of that equation.

Women get attacked whether or not they're wearing headphones.

Paul's not saying that fighting isn't a part of self defense, he's saying it's different from self defense, like using mouthwash is different from overall hygiene. (forgive me Paul, if I'm mistaken!)

You can certainly use mouthwash. Using mouthwash is certainly part of oral hygiene. But it's not going to help you much if you don't also floss and brush and minimize the time that sugar and starch sit on your teeth, etc.

You can certainly fight. Fighting is part of self defense. But's not going to help you much if you aren't aware, and socially intelligent, and if you don't plan your daily life in such a way as to avoid dangerous situations.

To put it very simply, this is what everyone always tries to communicate, as I understand it.
1. Fighting is a part of self defense.
2. Fighting is not all of self defense.
3. Fighting is actually a tiny, last ditch part of self defense.
4. Fighting only occurs when 99% of your self defense has already failed.

And finally:
5. People practice martial arts in many ways, frequently to learn to fight, but often for other reason as well or instead.

If that's what you're also trying to say, then you agree with Paul.

 

[Hanzou]

Paul's not saying that fighting isn't a part of self defense.....

Actually, that's exactly what he said;

Yes, fighting is essentially what happens when your self defence skills have failed. Are you seriously going to argue that to only possible out come to a self defence situation is to fight?

As Chris rightly says, “Fighting is not self defence boys”. I know I have been over this with you before, but I’m feeling generous, so I’m going to give it one more go at educating you before I fly the white flag.[/B]

And btw, I'm not saying that fighting is the ONLY aspect of self defense. I'm simply saying that fighting is an important aspect of it.

 

[Steve]

If 99% of self defense is other than fighting, why do you guys spend such a disproportionate amount of time learning to fight and criticizing others for learning to fight wrong? Seems kind of silly to waste your time training in martial arts at all, when you could be learning that other 99%.

 

[drop bear]

So, one last time, as neither of you seem to grasp what you're being asked here, what (in Kyokushin's approach over Shito Ryu's) makes it better suited to or applicable to self defence, bearing in mind that fighting is not self defence? Oh, and also bearing in mind that tournament style fighting, sparring etc is also very removed to the point that you're dealing with something almost completely alien to an actual self defence situation, so pointing to a series of tournament moments is of no use whatsoever.

Bearing in mind fighting is self defence. It is a defence against an assault. Not how to walk down to the shops without getting attacked. That is just being normal.

If we consider that if someone is kicking and punching you.You should probably have a method of stopping them doing that. Then you want an effective method of dealing with that. Full contact sparring is more effective than play acting.

Some methods are better than others at this. They are more likley to be better schools for self defence.

If you need to learn how to go out in public and interact with people. That is called therapy. Not martial arts.

 

[drop bear]

If 99% of self defense is other than fighting, why do you guys spend such a disproportionate amount of time learning to fight and criticizing others for learning to fight wrong? Seems kind of silly to waste your time training in martial arts at all, when you could be learning that other 99%.

Yes, fighting is essentially what happens when your self defence skills have failed. Are you seriously going to argue that to only possible out come to a self defence situation is to fight?

As Chris rightly says, “Fighting is not self defence boys”. I know I have been over this with you before, but I’m feeling generous, so I’m going to give it one more go at educating you before I fly the white flag.

The story you are talking about is this:-

Woman used karate to turn the tables on her violent attacker

Yes, she beat him up, but ask yourself WHY did she NEED to beat him up? Because she lacked the necessary self defence skills to stop the situation BEFORE it got to the point where it became a fight.

Fighting, self defence, and martial arts are three different things. Yes, there will be some skills which cross over (a good punch is always a good punch) but the point which is repeatedly being explain to you is that fighting is not self defence, and that merely being a good fighter does not automatically translate into being good at self defence. In fact, some of the skills you will learn to be successful at fighting are the exact opposite of the skills needed for successful self defence.

Yes she got lucky this time, but what about next time? Maybe not so lucky, no fighter however skilled can win every fight. And then she ends up beaten, raped, dead or all three. What about instead she learns self defence? i.e. she learns The Rituals of Violence and therefore learns how rapists select their victims so she knows what they are looking for, and can therefore avoid those things and thus lessen her chances of being selected as a victim next time? How about she learns Target Hardening, and knowing that they look for women wearing headphones, (as she was) so they can’t be heard when they come up behind her to attack, so that she learns no longer wears headphones? Therefore lessen her chances of being selected as a victim next time. How about she learns the Threat Awareness & Evaluation, specifically Coopers Colour Codes, which would teach her to take more notice of who and what is going around her, meaning the next time she is being assessed as a possible victim the criminal notches she is “switched on” and then he takes the decides to let her go by and waiting for an easier victim.

THIS is self defence and THIS has nothing to do with fighting and THIS will not be taught in Kyokushn or Shito-Ryu or bjj or mma or (insert name of martial art here) class.

It is clear from your numerous posts in numerous threads on the subject that (like many male martial artist, particularly young male martial artist), you are only able to see self defence in terms of bar fights or street brawls. You cannot see any other outcome to a self defence situation other than it descending into a street fight. But 99% of self defence has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with “fighting” or physical techniques what so ever. Just google Miquel Falcao & Kaue Mena for a prime example. Why did their situation end up in a street brawl? Because fighting did not teach them the 99% of self defence skills required to prevent the situation escalating to the point where the only outcome was a fight.

I am unsure how many times and how many people and how many different ways in how many different threads, we need to go over this before you begin to understand. Surely at some point you must step back and think, with so many people telling me the same thing over and over that maybe, just maybe there might be something I’m are not grasping and I might, just might therefore be wrong?

As a one final throw of the dice I present to you this free audio book, a full and clear explanation of why martial arts, self defence, and fighting are not the same.

The Martial Map (Free Audio Book) | Iain Abernethy

If, after listening to this, you still do not “get it”, then please stop talking about self defence, because you will never understand what is it, or is not.

Ok. What you dont understand about self defence is that it is this big undefinable mess.

So i can say ian atherby is wrong. And i am in fact an expert instead. Fighting arts expose you to actual conflict. Through this exposure you are better able to avoid conflict. You gain greater awareness of threat assesment. And become better at deescalation.

This is because you are actually getting punched in the face. And because you actually expose people to the emotional factor that causes fights.

And because self defence is this undefinable thing. Nobody can call me on it.

Steve. Do many people get attacked on the street from your gym?

Mabye your self defence method is working.

 

[Koshiki]

If 99% of self defense is other than fighting, why do you guys spend such a disproportionate amount of time learning to fight and criticizing others for learning to fight wrong? Seems kind of silly to waste your time training in martial arts at all, when you could be learning that other 99%.

Because we like to fight. Or at least to practice fighting...

It's undeniably a silly hobby/lifestyle.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Most of self-defense is not fighting.
Most fighting is not self-defense.
However there is an overlap in the two domains, fighting in self-defense. When someone asks about the value of a martial art for self-defense, it is reasonable to interpret as a question regarding that specific area of overlap, since that is the primary area where it can be a relevant tool.

 

[Koshiki]

Anyway, yeah, if you're worried about life-threatening attacks, either you're unlucky with regards to your location and lifestyle, or you're a little bit paranoid. Or so I think. I don't train because I'm worried about some serial killer hiding in my kitchen waiting for me to get home, I train 'cause I like it.

That being said, it seems like every time someone is interested in a martial art for self defense, the response is always, "martial arts are a crappy way to approach self defense! Learn to live safely instead!"

However, this is a martial arts and sport fighting forum, so I think we can justify talking about the martial arts or sport fighting contribute to self defense occasionally, no?

I mean, you wouldn't expect to go on a Mead-making forum and find everyone talking about how you're better off brewing beer, would you? Yeah, beer may be easier, beer may be cheaper, beer may be faster, but it's a mead-making forum. So I think it's fair to expect threads about how various martial arts approach self defense to be about those martial arts, rather than how martial arts are not self defense.

I mean sure, put a disclaimer on your post, a reminder that it's better to learn to avoid the fight then to fight well, but I don't think it's unreasonable to actually talk about specifics of martial arts combat rather than avoidance at least part of the time...

But again, treating martial arts as your self-defense mechanism is like purchasing most other insurance, statistically a poor return on investment. Do it because you like it. Then, in the unlikely event you ever need it, you're set. But do it because you like it.

 

[Koshiki]

Most of self-defense is not fighting.
Most fighting is not self-defense.
However there is an overlap in the two domains, fighting in self-defense. When someone asks about the value of a martial art for self-defense, it is reasonable to interpret as a question regarding that specific area of overlap, since that is the primary area where it can be a relevant tool.

Heh. Durn, you beat me to it...

 

[Steve]

Most of self-defense is not fighting.
Most fighting is not self-defense.
However there is an overlap in the two domains, fighting in self-defense. When someone asks about the value of a martial art for self-defense, it is reasonable to interpret as a question regarding that specific area of overlap, since that is the primary area where it can be a relevant tool.

Sure there is, but there is a disconnect in the rhetoric. I agree that martial skill, regardless of whether it's sport fighting or any other kind of fighting, is a small part of self defense. And I also agree that some fight training is more practical for self defense than others. But I think we lose perspective around here, and grossly inflate the benefits of training in any martial art for actually making a person safer.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Anyway, yeah, if you're worried about life-threatening attacks, either you're unlucky with regards to your location and lifestyle, or you're a little bit paranoid. Or so I think. I don't train because I'm worried about some serial killer hiding in my kitchen waiting for me to get home, I train 'cause I like it.

Agreed for the most part, but I should add that circumstances can be very different for men and women.

For most guys, unless they live in a terrible neighborhood or are in a profession which requires dealing with violence, 95% of self-defense can be summed up as "don't be a jerk, don't be an idiot, don't hang out in places where people start fights, don't hang out with criminals, keep your ego and temper under control, and pay attention to the world around you." Statistically speaking, if you're a guy and you're not in a profession that deals with violence and you get into a fight, you probably screwed up somewhere along the way.

The situation for women is rather different. Roughly 1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted at some point in their lives. Roughly 80% of the perpetrators are known to the victims. There are certainly things women can do to reduce their risks*, but staying out of bad neighborhoods and paying attention to her surroundings isn't going to help someone if her co-worker or cousin or minister or date or student or landlord or whoever decides to rape her. Statistically speaking, women are much more likely to be victims of violence that they didn't screw up and bring on themselves.

*(Avoiding intoxication being the biggest one. As a non-drinker, it's easy for me to say "just avoid alcohol". However as long as drinking is seen by the majority of the population as a normal human activity, it's a bit much to ask that an entire gender be teetotalers.)

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

While we are on the topic even if it is slightly off topic folks:

On the predation level: children, women and elderly will always be preyed upon. Not that fighting age men are not but.... as Tony mentioned above we are in general less vulnerable unless we hang out in bad neighborhoods, bars later in the evening when everyone has paired up and all that is left is a bunch of drunk men, we are a jerk, have a lack of common sense, stupid, etc. Or we work in a profession that is surrounded by violence or directly involved in it. If you are a woman as Tony mentioned 1 in 4 are sexually assaulted and numbers upon numbers have been physically assaulted. In my immediate family two women have been physically assaulted at one point in their life. That is 2 out of 4! Thank god both are safe and one utilized her training. Martial training can help if it addresses both physical and mental aspects of personal protection! God pities you if you come across a well trained female as they are so ferocious and capable.

One thing for sure though is that everyone and I mean everyone that lives a full long life will go through being a child, adult and an elderly person. Which means at some point you will be in a group that is potentially preyed upon more. You may be an alpha male right now and if you mind your peas and q's and have a little common sense you should be okay. However, if you live for awhile you won't always be that way. Having some solid training, skill sets and knowledge of what to do and what not to do might be a good idea. As I get older it is obvious that I do not have the cardio I once had as a young athletic man. I still have the strength but not the cardio. So my training reflects this and other obvious things as I age. While I am very good empty handed through time I have spent even more and more time on being multi-dimensional with tools/weapons of all kinds to improve my odds. If I become a cranky old man (and I am close) well watch out if you assault me.

Think of training as an insurance policy. You may never need it but if you do........ then you will want it and badly! Really, really badly! How many people have come to me to train after an incident and wished they had come before they were attacked. How many people have used what I have taught them successfully whether on the streets here in America or overseas in an area of conflict. The ones who have used it have always been really, really grateful for these skill sets. Someone recently thanked me for the skill sets we worked on that saved his life in a lethal encounter in Afghanistan. Almost every good martial instructor I know has similar stories so this is not unique to me and what I do. There is a lot of value to what we martial practitioners do!

-

Getting back on topic of which school you should go with. Go and check them both out. Figure out which instructor you would like to train with more and then get training. I feel that both would be fine for what you are looking for. Find the one that you want to train in as that is very important!

 

[Chris Parker]

If someone is attacking you and you throw weak punches and kicks, or you're unable to withstand blows to the body or head because you were learning point fighting instead of full contact, how are going to able to defend yourself?

Not the point, nor really relevant to what was being said. But, to humour you, the question will be why you think that the Shito Ryu school would result in such deficiencies as "weak punches and kicks"? Do you think that a point fighting school would not spend any time working on impact, or power, even if it's not used in their sparring or tournament format? Really?

The better your fighting prowess, the better you are at defending yourself if someone is attempting to do you harm.

Ha! Nope.

Here's the problem… you're thinking that a fight situation, where you know the attacker is coming, where you're aware there's an attack, where you know you're defending yourself, is the likely reality you'd face. Nope. In the majority of assault cases (self defence cases), you simply don't get the luxury of getting to use your "fighting prowess"… you're already cowering under a barrage of attacks you didn't see coming.

Are you starting to see why "fighting is not self defence" yet?

Recently there was an article about a girl who was attacked in Australia by an assailant trying to rape her. She used her karate skills to kick and punch the guy until help arrived. Are you seriously going to argue that her ability to fight off an attacker isn't self defense?

I know the story… a lot better than you, it seems. The young lass is from the same suburb as one of my best friends (about 45 minutes from me), and her system is the one I used to train in (Shukokai Karate-do)… and, as I recall, when the story first broke you (and others) were saying she'd have been better off doing BJJ, as she was taken to the ground. For the record, the system she trains in is a semi-contact point-based competition style… in other words, exactly what you say won't work. In fact, the full name of the system is Tani-ha SHITO RYU Shukokai Karate-do… the very art you're saying is the worse option… but now you're using it as a positive example? How things change…

As to exactly what happened, you might also be aware that little of what she did actually came from her karate training… in fact, it was dominantly her adrenaline taking over that helped… the biggest thing she got from her training wasn't "effective techniques"… or "hit hard, full contact!"… or even any real benefit of sparring… it was a personal belief in her unwillingness to be a victim.

Or maybe because she got tackled from behind in broad daylight, and was forced to fight for her life?

Well, you really missed the point of that question…

Why did she need to beat him up?

She didn't "beat him up".

Because there's predators out there (typically men) who seek to attack other people.

Er… what? This gross generalisation is not only missing the actual question you're thinking you're addressing, it's almost unfailingly naive in it's grasp of the topic.

Fortunately, this girl had the ability and will through training karate that allowed her to beat back her attacker (read: DEFEND herself) and survive.

None of which was any trait of a "full contact" school at all…

Only if you're trying to split hairs, or sell a book.

Er… you did see that the book you cite was free, yeah? But, for the record, they are absolutely different things. The fact that you fail to understand that is not our failing.

I never said that the aspects Paul is talking about isn't part of self defense. Im saying that fighting ability is a part of that equation.

Women get attacked whether or not they're wearing headphones.

Fighting ability isn't really that much of the equation, though. At all. It's a last line aspect, and a minor aspect at best… additionally, no real degree of sophistication, or much in the way of high skill level is required at all… so… no.

If 99% of self defense is other than fighting, why do you guys spend such a disproportionate amount of time learning to fight and criticizing others for learning to fight wrong? Seems kind of silly to waste your time training in martial arts at all, when you could be learning that other 99%.

Only if you think that training in a martial art is self defence, Steve… martial arts are about the fighting aspect (physically)… self defence isn't. And this is a martial arts forum. So… think about it.

Bearing in mind fighting is self defence.

Except, of course… it's not. It's, in a very real way, the exact opposite.

It is a defence against an assault.

Partially… but defence against an assault goes well beyond just physically responding to a physical assault…

Not how to walk down to the shops without getting attacked. That is just being normal.

No, it's not. You think people don't get assaulted just walking down to the shops? Is there some secret sign that they apply when heading down to the shops that prevents some attack from occurring?

The point is that, even when just walking down to the shops, you should still be applying your concepts of awareness, observation, and so on… which is all very much self defence… otherwise you're just as likely to be attacked as the young girl in the above article… who was just out for a walk on a main street, in broad daylight near her home…

The fact that not everyone gets attacked the second they walk out their door doesn't mean a thing when it comes to self defence… do you want to try again?

If we consider that if someone is kicking and punching you.You should probably have a method of stopping them doing that. Then you want an effective method of dealing with that. Full contact sparring is more effective than play acting.

Actually, no, full contact sparring is far less effective than "play acting" in this regard. Far, far less effective.

Some methods are better than others at this. They are more likley to be better schools for self defence.

Sure. But it'd help if you could identify what is actually "better" in this regard.

If you need to learn how to go out in public and interact with people. That is called therapy. Not martial arts.

Okay, for one thing, martial arts are, in a very real way, a form of therapy. Secondly, no, learning to go out and interact with people is not called therapy… and self defence principles are also not something that requires therapy to be considered… I hardly know where to start with your ideas here…

Ok. What you dont understand about self defence is that it is this big undefinable mess.

And what you don't understand about self defence is, well, all of it.

So i can say ian atherby is wrong.

Big call… I can say that drop bear is wrong. Completely. And back that up a hell of a lot more than the empty rhetoric you're coming up with here. Oh, and for the record, it's Iain, not Ian…

And i am in fact an expert instead.

HA! Expert at what?!?

Fighting arts expose you to actual conflict.

No, it exposes you to some aspects of conflict… those aspects being defined by the system itself… which can (and often are) completely removed from real world self defence factors and aspects.

Through this exposure you are better able to avoid conflict. You gain greater awareness of threat assesment. And become better at deescalation.

How? Let's say you train in your Kyokushin school… you do full contact sparring and tournaments… where in that are you getting any understanding of threat assessment? You know there's a "threat" because you line up opposite someone and are told to fight… how are you better able to avoid conflict, if avoiding conflict is never part of the training/experience? You fight whoever is opposite you… no avoidance there. How do you become better at de-escalation? Do you win the tournament if you can talk the other guy into going home instead?

Seriously, I know you haven't been able to answer anything previously, can you answer this?

This is because you are actually getting punched in the face. And because you actually expose people to the emotional factor that causes fights.

No, you really don't. You get exposed to nothing of the kind.

And because self defence is this undefinable thing. Nobody can call me on it.

I can. You have exactly 0 understanding of the topic. You have an uneducated grasp of a tiny area, focused on physical engagement, but little to nothing else, and think that you know it all.

You're a frog in a well. And I will very, very happily call you on it.

Steve. Do many people get attacked on the street from your gym?

Mabye your self defence method is working.

Cute. But what do you say if Steve comes back with a story of one of his guys getting attacked?

Sure there is, but there is a disconnect in the rhetoric. I agree that martial skill, regardless of whether it's sport fighting or any other kind of fighting, is a small part of self defense. And I also agree that some fight training is more practical for self defense than others. But I think we lose perspective around here, and grossly inflate the benefits of training in any martial art for actually making a person safer.

Steve, we've covered this before… but… you have no experience in self-defence oriented training… you have no interest in self-defence oriented training… you have not sought out self-defence oriented training… and are basing your opinion on your lack on exposure to this entire area.

That said, I'm going to try once more to give some insight into exactly why we are saying things like "fighting is not self defence". And the big thing to get your head around is that self defence is not technical… it's tactical. Honestly, very little technical material (fighting techniques and the like) are needed, or even particularly warranted. It'd take me some 10-15 years to give you everything in my martial arts on a technical level, longer if you want to get good at it… our self defence approach, though, that I can give you in about 6 months… in the dojo, I do it over about 18.

So how do we do it? Well, self defence is a tactical approach to conflict resolution and avoidance… not a technical approach to "winning a fight". "Techniques" mean almost nothing… contact or not is irrelevant… it's biggest benefit is that it can engender a greater confidence in some people… but not all. But the biggest part of self defence is understanding behaviour (yours and others), being aware of your surroundings, being aware of what your most likely forms of attack might be (understanding HAOV in your culture/environment), and so on. Then it's understanding the tactical methodology to limit your risk… engaging in a fight is often the riskier option (although not always)… but is best seen as a back up plan. But that's what fighting is… it's deliberately and willingly engaging in a physical engagement, with the aim of "beating" the other person/persons… "winning"… which has no place in self defence at all.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Recently there was an article about a girl who was attacked in Australia by an assailant trying to rape her. She used her karate skills to kick and punch the guy until help arrived. Are you seriously going to argue that her ability to fight off an attacker isn't self defense?

Weren't you the one earlier going on about how she had to be rescued because you felt her karate was somewhat ineffective, or something like that?

 

[Hanzou]

Not the point, nor really relevant to what was being said. But, to humour you, the question will be why you think that the Shito Ryu school would result in such deficiencies as "weak punches and kicks"? Do you think that a point fighting school would not spend any time working on impact, or power, even if it's not used in their sparring or tournament format? Really?

Not to the level or proficiency of the Kyokushin school. Kyokushin schools have a reputation of being hard contact karate institutions, thus the OP is more likely to learn how to hit, and how to be hit in that form of Karate than the Shito school. The OP's post even backs that up.

Ha! Nope.

Here's the problem… you're thinking that a fight situation, where you know the attacker is coming, where you're aware there's an attack, where you know you're defending yourself, is the likely reality you'd face. Nope. In the majority of assault cases (self defense cases), you simply don't get the luxury of getting to use your "fighting prowess"… you're already cowering under a barrage of attacks you didn't see coming.

Which is where your training in the martial arts should come into play. You should be experienced enough that you're not cowering under those barrage of punches, but making quick and effective decisions in order to get out of that situation. If the totality of your training goes out of the window when someone starts hitting you, then I'm afraid you've wasted your time and money practicing martial arts, and you should have taken up a different activity.

Are you starting to see why "fighting is not self defense" yet?

Nope.

I know the story… a lot better than you, it seems. The young lass is from the same suburb as one of my best friends (about 45 minutes from me), and her system is the one I used to train in (Shukokai Karate-do)… and, as I recall, when the story first broke you (and others) were saying she'd have been better off doing BJJ, as she was taken to the ground. For the record, the system she trains in is a semi-contact point-based competition style… in other words, exactly what you say won't work. In fact, the full name of the system is Tani-ha SHITO RYU Shukokai Karate-do… the very art you're saying is the worse option… but now you're using it as a positive example? How things change…

I'm using it as an example of someone using martial arts to defend themselves. My earlier argument was that if she had taken a more contact based style (like Bjj or Kyokushin), she probably wouldn't have eventually needed help to get out that situation, or taken the amount of damage that she took. That said, SOME martial arts training is better than NO martial arts training. Clearly her karate training did help her survive the encounter.

As to exactly what happened, you might also be aware that little of what she did actually came from her karate training… in fact, it was dominantly her adrenaline taking over that helped… the biggest thing she got from her training wasn't "effective techniques"… or "hit hard, full contact!"… or even any real benefit of sparring… it was a personal belief in her unwillingness to be a victim.

No offense, but if the victim says that her karate training saved her life (which she did), I'm inclined to side with the victim over your armchair analysis.

Fighting ability isn't really that much of the equation, though. At all. It's a last line aspect, and a minor aspect at best… additionally, no real degree of sophistication, or much in the way of high skill level is required at all… so… no.

http://www.bjjee.com/bjj-news/femal...rapist-to-sleep-with-triangle-choke-in-dubai/

Woman triangle chokes attacker unconscious, judge awards her £500

As a person who practices Triangle Chokes, I can attest to the fact that they require a certain level of sophistication to accomplish, especially in a situation where someone bigger and stronger is trying to violate or kill you. They both used fighting skill to defend themselves against an assailant.

Fortunately for these women, they took a martial art that didn't tell them to start "cowering under a barrage of attacks you didn't see coming".

 

[Hanzou]

Weren't you the one earlier going on about how she had to be rescued because you felt her karate was somewhat ineffective, or something like that?

I said she would have been better served learning some form of ground fighting. However, that's a different argument entirely, and not the point of this discussion. The point in this discussion is that her karate background did get her out of a bad situation.