Shaolin-Do Curriculum?

[Flying Crane]

There is something to be said for preserving history though. I mean assuming the forms are historical then they do have a sort of value and should be passed down.

Clfsean beat me to it.

Nothing about any of this material, or ANY martial art at all, is divinely sacred. It was all developed by humans, is practiced and taught and passed on by humans, to other humans. If it falls out of use, if nobody does it anymore, it won't stop the sun from rising tomorrow morning.

Martial arts is a folk tradition. It is passed on from generation to generation, thru a teacher-student relationship, and includes a body of knowledge that is not common to the masses. If the folk tradition is lost, then it is simply gone and cannot be re-created. The creation of a new system can replace a lost system, but it's not the same as the lost system.

If the SD material is being done poorly and is not understood properly and is not functional, then preserving it simply for historical purposes is meaningless. It is not an artifact that can be placed in a museum for society to preserve. It is a skill and body of knowledge. Once the skill and understanding is lost, then the movements are just hollow mimicry and no longer have meaning or purpose. It is a waste of valuable time that could be spent in training something that is properly understood.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Nothing about any of this material, or ANY martial art at all, is divinely sacred.

Well, except for Xuefu :mst:

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, except for Xuefu :mst:

that's so much of a given that I didn't think it required mention...

 

[rickster]

And surprisingly there is no record of this at Shaolin where they are known to keep meticulous records.

No one and I repeat no one in CMA learns 900 forms and is taken seriously by any other real live CMA sifu. Sorry it is the way it is in CMA my first sifu now claims to know hundreds among them Wudang and Shaolin and he is far from skilled in them. And I won't tell you what 3 born raised and trained in China sifus say about him.... let’s just say that all call him a Grandmaster... and they are not being complimentary and that is the nicest thing they say about him

I have heard, that there isn't a TCMA word for "GrandMaster"

 

[rickster]

I think everyone is missing the point here altogether. I agree totally that Shaolin-Do in no shape or form even resembles authentic Shaolin martial arts or training methods, I

How do you know what is "Authentic Shaolin Martial Arts?

 

[GaryR]

Doomx,



I would reiterate someone else’s advice to simply stay away. From what I have seen (and I have met an instructor in person and been to a school), its crap. It's very likely based on a hyped up a fraud, but I could care less the origin, I care if its crap. It's also not a very good representation of any of the Chinese arts it purports teach.

My suggestion from vast MA experience--Run away, far away. Unless of course you just want a martial hobby for the exercise and social aspects, that choice is yours.

Best,

Gary

Hello everybody,
I was looking for some info into Shaolin-Do. I've heard the controversy and read about it in great length. But, what I'm looking for is actual details about the art itself, and not so much the history. Also, I'm not trying to cause any grief or controversy, I'm just intereseted in the facts. I study martial arts, and I just enjoy learning/practicing different arts.

Here's my questions:

1.) From White belt to Black, how many self defense techniques are there?
As far as I know, white belt - green belt is the only self defense stuff taught (roughly 30 chin na techniques), and the rest is nothing but forms?

2.) Is the curriculum still growing? With so much alledged material, one would think that more stuff would be added to the curriculum.

3.) Is the self defense applications of the forms taught?


Thats it for now. I appreciate any responses.

 

[TaiChiTJ]

Here is an interesting question/thought: Where do you guys see Shaolin-Do in future (the curriculum, future grandmaster, popularity...etc).


Your in luck! Madame Ruth, a well-known psychic in my neighborhood was having a half-price special! So of course I asked her. She entered into an alternative dimensional consciousness through complex vortex manipulations using a crystal she bought at wal-mart. So surely this is reliable information:

At some time in the future a group of renegade SD'rs who between themselves, collectively know all 900 forms are going to lock themselves in an abandoned military base in colorado. Their supplies will include several cases of three by five cards (3000 to the case) and a massive supply of mountain dew, jolt, amp and other high sugar, high caffeine drinks. They will begin writing every posture of every form and its applicaiton on its own card for the 900 forms, along with every self defense technique and all other actions in the system. Then they will start sorting the cards.

The next step will be to start throwing out duplicate moves. This in itself will take time plus many 32 gallon garbage bags.


They will eventually reduce the entire SD system down to 55 core techniques and start selling it on the internet.

Immediate legal proceedings will commence with SD attempting to sue the perpetrators for everything including the shirt off their backs. SD'ers loyal to the traditional system will issue challenges to the folks who bought the abbreviated method. Unfortunately, they get their butts kicked by the new students.

But all will end well. It will be announced that a secret method, called BTB, known only to the master, will fire up the meridians and dredge the channels. For a mere $6995, and your signature on a legal document saying you will never disclose what you are taught, the secret can be yours. Major american celebrities will flock to the courses, checkbook in hand.

It will be a complete mystery just exactly what is BTB until it leaks out that it stands for "Become the Bird", and apparently involves making bird sounds while doing the three bird forms in SD. So all will be well, and across the land new students will gather in the major city centers doing their bird forms behind closed doors. Passers by will occasionally here the tell-tale sound:

KAW! KAW!
KAW! KAW!

 

[WC_lun]

Wow! Major thread necromancy and is that jazz with words?

 

[Doomx2001]

Doomx,



I would reiterate someone else’s advice to simply stay away. From what I have seen (and I have met an instructor in person and been to a school), its crap. It's very likely based on a hyped up a fraud, but I could care less the origin, I care if its crap. It's also not a very good representation of any of the Chinese arts it purports teach.

My suggestion from vast MA experience--Run away, far away. Unless of course you just want a martial hobby for the exercise and social aspects, that choice is yours.

Best,

Gary

I think overall I've got the theory or message across about SD that I was trying to say, whether right or wrong. I really do see it just continuing to evolve nation wide as more and more people tweek the curriculum as time goes on, it is human nature. Whether in its current state that it is effective or not, I don't know, I haven't trained in it.

One quick thing to add though, I have noticed that SD seems to be heavy influenced by Northern Long Fist? All the different animal forms and even the Hsing Yi at times, resembles more Long Fist. What do you guys think?

 

[clfsean]

I think overall I've got the theory or message across about SD that I was trying to say, whether right or wrong. I really do see it just continuing to evolve nation wide as more and more people tweek the curriculum as time goes on, it is human nature. Whether in its current state that it is effective or not, I don't know, I haven't trained in it.

Wait... you haven't touched it but you're in essence trying to validate something about it? My head hurts...

One quick thing to add though, I have noticed that SD seems to be heavy influenced by Northern Long Fist? All the different animal forms and even the Hsing Yi at times, resembles more Long Fist. What do you guys think?

No. It doesn't. It hasn't.

 

[Doomx2001]

Wait... you haven't touched it but you're in essence trying to validate something about it? My head hurts...

It is not so much about trying to validate something rather than making an observation of the natural flow of things. Its human nature that things change. An example of what I've been alluding to would be: Hapkido. Hapkido started out with low kicks, then Ji Han Jae added high kicks and Ki Exercises. So the Hapkido people practice today is not the same as when it started out.
As we all know there are several classical jujutsu styles in Japan. Jigoro Kano combined techniques from about 3 different styles of Jujutsu to form Judo. From there Judo instructors went to Brazil, and the Gracies changed Judo into what we now know as Gracie Jujutus/Brazilian Jujutsu. Then you have Karate, which had its start in China, then to Okinawa, then to Japan.
The same can be said for Hsing yi, Tai Chi, Bagua...etc over the centuries. All that I'm trying to say is that its human nature to change things. And that does include martial arts, even ones based on lies (SD).

I think many people could be making the assumption that I'm trying to validate Sin Kwang The's claims, which I'm not, not at all. Its well documented that the truth and GM of SD don't mix well. But that is not what I was really trying to talk about. I think there is so much hurt feelings and level of hatred toward SD that it may make it difficult for people to have a real clinical look at the style itself, as practitioners are changing SD more and more as time goes on.

As far as my Long Fst comment, I'm not saying that Sin Kwang The studied long fist, unless he watched a VHS tape in the 60's (lol), but what I am saying is that by looking at alot of the forms, they are all similar, using long stances, and few other things that put me in the mind of Long Fist. That is just the way it looks to me, but I'm not trying to imply that it so.

That is all. I"m not validating the history SD, I'm not validating the GM of SD, I'm not saying SD is an ancient art, I'm not recommending other people to train in SD, ..etc. And the reason I don't come out and say these things is because I honestly do not want to offend anyone that trains in SD. Just because we operate under the safety of a computer screen doesn't mean that we should act any differently than how we would in person. And that is not being thrown at any particular person.

My whole conversation has been about the people who study SD, and the changes that come to SD as time goes on. I've seen people that have stripped 75% of the curriculum focusing on the material that suits them best. Others teach the whole curriculum but have made changes for practicality or for 'smoother forms'. And some focus just on one aspect of SD such as Hsing Yi doing research outside of SD to bring more 'life' to Hsing Yi the proper way. But anyway, these are just interesting observations that I have made that I thought would be interesting to discuss. Thats all.

 

[clfsean]

It is not so much about trying to validate something rather than making an observation of the natural flow of things. Its human nature that things change. An example of what I've been alluding to would be: Hapkido. Hapkido started out with low kicks, then Ji Han Jae added high kicks and Ki Exercises. So the Hapkido people practice today is not the same as when it started out.
As we all know there are several classical jujutsu styles in Japan. Jigoro Kano combined techniques from about 3 different styles of Jujutsu to form Judo. From there Judo instructors went to Brazil, and the Gracies changed Judo into what we now know as Gracie Jujutus/Brazilian Jujutsu. Then you have Karate, which had its start in China, then to Okinawa, then to Japan.
The same can be said for Hsing yi, Tai Chi, Bagua...etc over the centuries. All that I'm trying to say is that its human nature to change things. And that does include martial arts, even ones based on lies (SD).


I think many people could be making the assumption that I'm trying to validate Sin Kwang The's claims, which I'm not, not at all. Its well documented that the truth and GM of SD don't mix well. But that is not what I was really trying to talk about. I think there is so much hurt feelings and level of hatred toward SD that it may make it difficult for people to have a real clinical look at the style itself, as practitioners are changing SD more and more as time goes on.

Ok... but the trick is if you're doing something technically incorrect from day one, evolving doesn't make it right. While you may make it applicable, you're still not correct. And as for hurt feelings, that needs to be addressed to those still in the SD folds, not those that have left.

As far as my Long Fst comment, I'm not saying that Sin Kwang The studied long fist, unless he watched a VHS tape in the 60's (lol), but what I am saying is that by looking at alot of the forms, they are all similar, using long stances, and few other things that put me in the mind of Long Fist. That is just the way it looks to me, but I'm not trying to imply that it so.

Long fist is a descriptive of power generation for striking & other such goodies, not necessarily stance work.

That is all. I"m not validating the history SD, I'm not validating the GM of SD, I'm not saying SD is an ancient art, I'm not recommending other people to train in SD, ..etc. And the reason I don't come out and say these things is because I honestly do not want to offend anyone that trains in SD. Just because we operate under the safety of a computer screen doesn't mean that we should act any differently than how we would in person. And that is not being thrown at any particular person.

Right. So call it as it is. It is what it is.

My whole conversation has been about the people who study SD, and the changes that come to SD as time goes on. I've seen people that have stripped 75% of the curriculum focusing on the material that suits them best. Others teach the whole curriculum but have made changes for practicality or for 'smoother forms'. And some focus just on one aspect of SD such as Hsing Yi doing research outside of SD to bring more 'life' to Hsing Yi the proper way. But anyway, these are just interesting observations that I have made that I thought would be interesting to discuss. Thats all.

So what exactly are you getting at? I'm trying to get my head around that. Change to something incorrect, unless corrected by an acknowledged sourcehead, is still incorrect with changes. What again has your experience been with SD directly or otherwise?

 

[oaktree]

And some focus just on one aspect of SD such as Hsing Yi doing research outside of SD to bring more 'life' to Hsing Yi the proper way

If you are practicing Xingyi in SD and you are looking outside of SD for Xingyi to do it the proper way then why not just do Xingyi the proper way outside of SD and drop the SD
Xingyi?

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK a couple things

As far as my Long Fst comment, I'm not saying that Sin Kwang The studied long fist, unless he watched a VHS tape in the 60's (lol),

First a minor and more silly point

Yuma Shiraishi and Shizuo Takano did not develope VHS tape format until 1971 so no one was watching a VHS tape in the 60s

My whole conversation has been about the people who study SD, and the changes that come to SD as time goes on. I've seen people that have stripped 75% of the curriculum focusing on the material that suits them best. Others teach the whole curriculum but have made changes for practicality or for 'smoother forms'. And some focus just on one aspect of SD such as Hsing Yi doing research outside of SD to bring more 'life' to Hsing Yi the proper way. But anyway, these are just interesting observations that I have made that I thought would be interesting to discuss. Thats all.

Now the serious bits.....

If people are going outside of Shaolin Do to train Long Fist and Xingyiquan to bring back into Shaolin Do then that says Shaolin Do devolved from a martial art to something that was not a martial art. Now if we look at Chinese Martial history that would then label it a failed martial art and it would likely die off.

Also since you are talking about something near and dear to my heart (Xingyiquan) I would be interested in knowing what parts of Xingyi are in Shaolin Do and what parts they are allegedly bringing back in

 

[Doomx2001]

Ok... but the trick is if you're doing something technically incorrect from day one, evolving doesn't make it right. While you may make it applicable, you're still not correct. And as for hurt feelings, that needs to be addressed to those still in the SD folds, not those that have left.

Again its not about validating the SD, but rather making an observation. Do you agree or disagree that martial arts change and evolve over time? I would think this would be an interesting topic as relates to the very nature of human ingenuity, being able to over time make them most out things others would consider worthless. Thats really is what is at the heart of my post.

Long fist is a descriptive of power generation for striking & other such goodies, not necessarily stance work.

It is really just my best guess if I had to compare SD to a Chinese martial art.

Right. So call it as it is. It is what it is.

The fact is, regardless of the well documented origins of SD, if a person in the said style practices kicking, punching, blocking...etc, that is still of value despite SD being based on a mountain of lies. But as far as calling it what it is, there are plenty forums or message boards on the internet that have done that years ago with threads still going to this day. Its been beat to death. I'm not really malicious person. Or hell bent on the destruction of any martial art that I find repugnant. There is plenty of that going around when it comes to SD. Like I said before, I honestly don't wont' to offend anyone who practices SD. There is no point in it. Also I'm not interested in any claimed history of SD prior to the 1960's. I just want to take a clinical look at the curriculum as it is now, and where its possibly headed.
And also, the idea that 'It is what It is', that may not be 100 years from now. Things have a funny way of changing for the better or the worst.

So what exactly are you getting at? I'm trying to get my head around that. Change to something incorrect, unless corrected by an acknowledged sourcehead, is still incorrect with changes. What again has your experience been with SD directly or otherwise?

Well as far as experience, I have 0% first hand experience in SD. I have seen it demonstrated. I have seen many videos, but as far as me having the opportunity to train in it myself, no haven't. I actually took the time to search the web and link several videos in this thread for discussion, which no one that I can remember took the time to discuss, LOL, as it relates to the idea that things evolve.

What I'm getting at, like I mentioned earlier and before that, is, its human nature to change things. I gave a few examples of martial arts that have done just that, within a span of 100 years or less.
I just want to take a clinical look at the curriculum as it is now, and where it could be years from now.

And to give you a better idea of how I look at SD, I would say this: I try to look at things with an open mind, objectively, to see not just the bad, but also the good. Not just good, but also the bad. Not just the lies, but also the truth. Not just the truth, but also the lies. I apply this same standard to all martial arts.
When I see a Hsing Yi form in SD, I don't see Hebei Hsing Yi, Shanxi Hsing Yi or Henan Hsing Yi. I just see SD Hsing Yi.
When I look at SD Tiger Crane Form, I don't see Hung Gar Tiger Crane, I just see SD Tiger Crane. Have the higher ups' in SD including Sin Kwang The' made false claims that many of the forms they teach are ancient forms from China, yes they have. I'm not debating that one bit, because they have made those false claims.

But I don't look at the lies, or what the forms are said to be or resemble or any of that. Because SD has done been 'busted'. There is nothing to prove in that field, its done out there, and everybody knows. But what I try to do, is look at SD FOR WHAT IT IS and what it isn't. I try to see what it is that they do well, and not just everything they do wrong.

And finally, whenever I try to have a discussion on a martial arts as a topic, I try my best to avoid from being like a over zealous martial art busting guy like on Bullshido, and I also try not to be the over zealous can't talk about traditional martial arts taboos guy. I just want discuss where SD is now, and where it's headed, without looking at bogus claims and looking at some of the morally corrupt hierarchy of SD. The thing I think most people are over looking is that the majority of SD practitioners are good people, who are trying to make the most of the training. Some ignore the nay sayers, and others have embraced the truth on things, and have either moved on, or continue to teach a modified version of the curriculum.

Anyway, thats all I'm looking for, is just a good analytical discussion on the topic.

 

[Doomx2001]

If you are practicing Xingyi in SD and you are looking outside of SD for Xingyi to do it the proper way then why not just do Xingyi the proper way outside of SD and drop the SD
Xingyi?

I don't train in SD. I would love to learn Xingyi though, .

 

[Doomx2001]

Also since you are talking about something near and dear to my heart (Xingyiquan) I would be interested in knowing what parts of Xingyi are in Shaolin Do and what parts they are allegedly bringing back in

By looking at a SD site, they have Hsing yi : fist of five roads, five roads linking form, 12 animal forms, and two man set. I don't know if they actually practice the five element fist such as Splitting fist, Chopping fist...etc.
But anyway, there is a growing number of SD black belts and higher rank people in SD that are breaking away from the organization to become independent schools. Some of these teachers go to China to study, while most learn from there fellow martial artist here in the U.S.A. I saw a website just a couple of days ago where a guy in Tennessee is teaching just 8 or 10 forums, half of them are SD forums, and the others are legit Mantis forms that he probably learned from a Mantis school nearby.

Also there are two instructors that I know of in Kentucky that have broke off from SD, and they have modified and changed there SD curriculum into something different. I figured I mention this stuff as it relates to the discussion.

Anyway, I might be able to find some online videos (SD Hsing Yi) that I can link here for you if you would like? The reason I ask is because last time, I don't think anyone took the time to examine the last links I posted. LOL!

 

[Xue Sheng]

By looking at a SD site, they have Hsing yi : fist of five roads, five roads linking form, 12 animal forms, and two man set. I don't know if they actually practice the five element fist such as Splitting fist, Chopping fist...etc.
But anyway, there is a growing number of SD black belts and higher rank people in SD that are breaking away from the organization to become independent schools. Some of these teachers go to China to study, while most learn from there fellow martial artist here in the U.S.A. I saw a website just a couple of days ago where a guy in Tennessee is teaching just 8 or 10 forums, half of them are SD forums, and the others are legit Mantis forms that he probably learned from a Mantis school nearby.

Also there are two instructors that I know of in Kentucky that have broke off from SD, and they have modified and changed there SD curriculum into something different. I figured I mention this stuff as it relates to the discussion.

Anyway, I might be able to find some online videos (SD Hsing Yi) that I can link here for you if you would like? The reason I ask is because last time, I don't think anyone took the time to examine the last links I posted. LOL!

I have never heard of forms called fist of five roads or five roads linking form in Hebei or Shang (Which I do) nor have I seen that listed as forms in Henan or Shanxi but I do not do Henan or Shanxi so.... And I wouild be interested in seeing a video of Shaolin Do's idea of Xingyiquan

 

[clfsean]

I have never heard of forms called fist of five roads or five roads linking form in Hebei or Shang (Which I do) nor have I seen that listed as forms in Henan or Shanxi but I do not do Henan or Shanxi so.... And I wouild be interested in seeing a video of Shaolin Do's idea of Xingyiquan

They do the basic linkage that almost everybody does... but their way. Not XYQ way, but the SD way.

 

[clfsean]

By looking at a SD site, they have Hsing yi : fist of five roads, five roads linking form, 12 animal forms, and two man set. I don't know if they actually practice the five element fist such as Splitting fist, Chopping fist...etc.
But anyway, there is a growing number of SD black belts and higher rank people in SD that are breaking away from the organization to become independent schools. Some of these teachers go to China to study, while most learn from there fellow martial artist here in the U.S.A. I saw a website just a couple of days ago where a guy in Tennessee is teaching just 8 or 10 forums, half of them are SD forums, and the others are legit Mantis forms that he probably learned from a Mantis school nearby.

Also there are two instructors that I know of in Kentucky that have broke off from SD, and they have modified and changed there SD curriculum into something different. I figured I mention this stuff as it relates to the discussion.

Anyway, I might be able to find some online videos (SD Hsing Yi) that I can link here for you if you would like? The reason I ask is because last time, I don't think anyone took the time to examine the last links I posted. LOL!

Yeah... going to China to "relearn" or "correct SD" ... not so much IME & IMO. Where's the website for the guy in Tn you saw? SD has a whole passle of TLQ sets, again... as they do it, not as a TLQ practitioner will learn, develop & work it.

Again... changing or modifying SD doesn't make it wrong on a base, concrete floor level. SD is SD. It's not XYQ... TLQ... Taiji Quan... Bagua Zhang... etc... It's SD attempting to pull off sets from other styles or even complete systems with no foundation in that system. Doing a few drills that may have been picked up before teaching their version of something does not make it work. It is the SD version of it & it's lacking the core & heart of it. Therefore, it is fundamentally flawed from the start.

The only things they can avoid doing that with, is the things made up by SKT because THAT is what they do.