Shaolin-Do Curriculum?

[Xue Sheng]

They do the basic linkage that almost everybody does... but their way. Not XYQ way, but the SD way.

thier way :hmm: that does not sound good, but I would still like to see it, I am curious as to what the Shaolin Do way is as it applies to Xingyi

I have seen other groups version of Xingyiquan (most notable the Taoist Tai Chi Society) and it was plain awful and had no root, no power and no MA application

 

[clfsean]

thier way :hmm: that does not sound good, but I would still like to see it, I am curious as to what the Shaolin Do way is as it applies to Xingyi

I have seen other groups version of Xingyiquan (most notable the Taoist Tai Chi Society) and it was plain awful and had no root, no power and no MA application

Heh... have fun with this...

[video=youtube_share;5kIyh0tgB7A]http://youtu.be/5kIyh0tgB7A[/video]

 

[Xue Sheng]

Heh... have fun with this...

Is he Shaolin Do? there is no mention of it on his Webpage

He does have a rather, shall we say "extensive" training background though

Stance wrong or possibly Shanxi based and still not good if we are talking Xingyiquan...and we are
Hands may vary depending on style and teacher
Arch back when striking...aaaa no no no
Movement wrong,
Power wrong
Paoquan not good at all

I am going to label it Bad Karate Style Xingyiquan

I am guessing this is The 5 element linking form

Xing Yi Quan 5 Elements and Linking form, done well (Starts @ 1:26)

Or maybe he is trying Ba Shi.. also done well here

 

[clfsean]

Is he Shaolin Do? there is no mention of it on his Webpage

No... he can't mention it. He's the guy that had the court case recently with SKT & came out on top.

As to the rest... ah-yeup... that'd be the correct of it. For all things SD that they have appropriated.

 

[Gentle Fist]

Sorry didn't read through the 100+ posts on this thread... What is with the name and uniform choice? Are they Japanese or Chinese? After watching the videos on Youtube...not really convinced that it is an ancient martial art...

 

[Doomx2001]

Sorry didn't read through the 100+ posts on this thread... What is with the name and uniform choice? Are they Japanese or Chinese? After watching the videos on Youtube...not really convinced that it is an ancient martial art...

I'm getting ready to go to work, but if you read Shaolin Do's wikipedia, I think on there it explains their version of why they use Japanese names and uniforms. Despite the claims of GM Sin and his senior students, it could just be the influence of the elder master Bill Leonard because I read somewhere that he did Shotokan Karate, and also worth mentioning is that all the forms up to black belt were made my GM Sin Kwang The' despite that fact that for decades he said they were Shaolin forms.

Personally I don't fault anyone who claims to teach Chinese martial arts who choose to use Japanese uniforms (because they are durable), but it does seem silly and lazy to use terms such as Kumite and Kata instead of Chinese termanology (or maybe even Indonesian since GM Sin is from there).

I'm not sure if this is been asked before, but I wonder if GM Sin studied karate in Indonesia? I would say probably not, but then again you never know. Interesting though. But be sure to read other message boards where people talk about it in length if that helps with your question.

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Greetings everyone, I'm coming late into the conversation. However if I may interject a few of my experiences and insights. Yes Doomx2001, as far as the uniforms there are many reasons. Ultimately they are actually cheaper and easier to get and very well made. Also if you consider the frog button uniforms these are actually based upon normal clothes from what I understand. Some of us Shaolin-Do folks will actually wear the frog buttons, however it's usually the ones that are internal.

I know there was a comment on Hsing-I as far as training differently outside of Shaolin-Do. It really depends on the teacher. Shaolin-Do has over 900 forms. I think I counted once for a standard external school has just 25 forms for black belt. Alot of the material is from seminars. Please bare in mind that Shaolin-Do wants to keep the arts alive. Some instructors may never do all 900, in fact I don't know of anyone who has, to date learn all of them. Which each instructor doing there part to keep a peace alive you'll have differences in training.

My instructor's Hsing-I is complete, I can't vouch for the other schools as I've not been to them.

I know there is the talk of the Chinese terms, however we do have both the Chinese terms and the Japanese ones. For example we have what is called the Two-section staff techniques at blue belt level. Often they are called Nunchaku or nun-chucks. why? because everyone knows what they are and we usually buy nun-chucks (at least I did) because they are cheap and easy to get a hold of. Very few people know what "erjie gun" are. In fact I even forgot the name because I've not done the form in class for a while only at home, since I've moved pasted that rank.

So you'll have the ability to learn the Chinese if you want, but for the mass public you'll often hear more family terms. Also bear in mind that in Japan there is pretty much one language, in China there is at least 7 major variations. So which Chinese name do you want to learn makes it tricky. Xingyi vs Hsing-I for example. With different spelling and all and a different language it can make it easier to use something easier to pronounce.

As to the comment about going outside of Shaolin-Do to get Xingyi and bring it back in...I've never heard that and my instructor who has been with Shaolin-Do since 1979 has never went outside to learn Hsing-I, he never had too we have good stuff.

Yes we do learn the 5 elements first with Hsing-I


I know there has been a lot going on i just wanted to put a few words in and hopefully join in a peaceful debate

 

[Xue Sheng]

My instructor's Hsing-I is complete, I can't vouch for the other schools as I've not been to them.

Please define what you mean by complete

So you'll have the ability to learn the Chinese if you want, but for the mass public you'll often hear more family terms. Also bear in mind that in Japan there is pretty much one language, in China there is at least 7 major variations. So which Chinese name do you want to learn makes it tricky. Xingyi vs Hsing-I for example. With different spelling and all and a different language it can make it easier to use something easier to pronounce.

Actually it is a matter of which translation into the English alphabet that you use Pinyin: Xingyiquan or Wade Giles: Hsing-I-Chuan. Pinyin comes from mainland and Wade-Giles comes form the British.

Yes we do learn the 5 elements first with Hsing-I

Except traditionally with Xingyi you do not learn the 5 elements first, in the beginning of your training yes, but not first

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Please define what you mean by complete

As far as movements behind the techniques. I believe there are some schools that do it a bit differently, the SD school I attend focuses more on the internal arts and my instructor is AWESOME When I say complete i mean complete movements, we are taught certain ways to breathing and think on each element. As well as how to borrow energy and use there forward attacking momentum to our advantage. Where the hmmm I dont' know how to spell it only say it but the closest I can think is "wa jing" though I think a lot of people spell it with a fa or something. I was actually having a conversation about Hsing-I recently and out of all the videos on youtube the closest my instructor could find to ours was this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfAi3OdD4oQ&feature=related not exact but very close to the way we practice. So all I mean by complete is, though new to the Hsing-I taught in SD I don't see what could be missing.

Xingyiquan is your main style correct? I would be most interested if I could ever find online a video of SD doing it at our fall gathering to your opinion. I love talking with others about martial arts and I find it fascinating how different it can be from school to school or from family style to family style.

Except traditionally with Xingyi you do not learn the 5 elements first, in the beginning of your training yes, but not first

Well maybe I should be more careful how I word it I remember learning 3 body and foot work, and I remember learning the 5 elements and animals. I've not tested it on it as I'm very new to it, but I believe the first time we test is with the 5 elements and what we call linking form or linking of the five roads. I think I read some where a post from you or another that said this is nothing something you do in Xingyiquan, but please dont' quote me there, I've been on here looking for some conversations to participate in and dont' have a direct quote.

 

[clfsean]

I could ever find online a video of SD doing it at our fall gathering

Here you go... even better... class time...

http://youtu.be/OOM-xf_QMeQ

http://youtu.be/xn2bCmsOejk

 

[Xue Sheng]

As far as movements behind the techniques. I believe there are some schools that do it a bit differently, the SD school I attend focuses more on the internal arts and my instructor is AWESOME When I say complete i mean complete movements, we are taught certain ways to breathing and think on each element. As well as how to borrow energy and use there forward attacking momentum to our advantage. Where the hmmm I dont' know how to spell it only say it but the closest I can think is "wa jing" though I think a lot of people spell it with a fa or something. I was actually having a conversation about Hsing-I recently and out of all the videos on youtube the closest my instructor could find to ours was this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfAi3OdD4oQ&feature=related not exact but very close to the way we practice. So all I mean by complete is, though new to the Hsing-I taught in SD I don't see what could be missing.

fajin.
Let me give you the best advice I was ever given as it applies to Xingyiquan and striking. Don't tie your breathing to your striking. In other words, Do not exhale at every strike. It should not matter inhale or exhale or anywhere in between... you should still be able to hit and hit hard.

Xingyiquan is your main style correct? I would be most interested if I could ever find online a video of SD doing it at our fall gathering to your opinion. I love talking with others about martial arts and I find it fascinating how different it can be from school to school or from family style to family style.

Xingyiquan is my favorite style but Yang Taijiquan is my main style. I have trained Hebei Xingyiquan with 3 different teachers. Teacher ones form looks a lot like teacher 3's form but teacher 1 has no real idea about applications and teacher 3 probably has a better understanding of Xingyiquan applications that 1 or 2. Teacher 2's Hebei looks very different. he knows applications but some of them are not as good as teacher 3 and some of them are just plain going to get you hit in the face if you are not careful

Well maybe I should be more careful how I word it I remember learning 3 body and foot work, and I remember learning the 5 elements and animals. I've not tested it on it as I'm very new to it, but I believe the first time we test is with the 5 elements and what we call linking form or linking of the five roads. I think I read some where a post from you or another that said this is nothing something you do in Xingyiquan, but please dont' quote me there, I've been on here looking for some conversations to participate in and dont' have a direct quote.

Not sure what you are saying here.


I do not take tests nor has any teacher I have had given tests, TCMA has no belt ranks
I know the 5 elements form
I know the 5 elements linking form
I know the 5 elements staff form
I do not know the animal forms (officially) I have been shown tiger.
I did comment on the 5 roads and I do not remember what I said. I did see something that looked a little like Bashi that was being called the 5 elements or 5 roads or something like that

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Here you go... even better... class time...

http://youtu.be/OOM-xf_QMeQ

http://youtu.be/xn2bCmsOejk

hmmm that looks different... it's essentially the same moves. but different, hard to explain, but the way I learned three body you have more weight on your back leg, and you sorta sit into it. and the back hand is out in front more, the lead had is about eye level and the back hand is supposed to be half way between your front toe and your lead hand. and those are the same sets of moves for the beginning of linking but when I was shown cannon fist (fire) we do it with our whole body and waste, both hands come up together...

i'm not saying he's doing it wrong...I mean that's Elder Master...it's just a bit different...

 

[clfsean]

hmmm that looks different... it's essentially the same moves. but different, hard to explain, but the way I learned three body you have more weight on your back leg, and you sorta sit into it. and the back hand is out in front more, the lead had is about eye level and the back hand is supposed to be half way between your front toe and your lead hand. and those are the same sets of moves for the beginning of linking but when I was shown cannon fist (fire) we do it with our whole body and waste, both hands come up together...

i'm not saying he's doing it wrong...I mean that's Elder Master...it's just a bit different...

Do yourself a favor... go out to Youtube & look up Xingyi 5 Roads & Linkage... watch everybody else. Let us know what you think then.

 

[Blaze Dragon]

fajin.
Let me give you the best advice I was ever given as it applies to Xingyiquan and striking. Don't tie your breathing to your striking. In other words, Do not exhale at every strike. It should not matter inhale or exhale or anywhere in between... you should still be able to hit and hit hard.





Xingyiquan is my favorite style but Yang Taijiquan is my main style. I have trained Hebei Xingyiquan with 3 different teachers. Teacher ones form looks a lot like teacher 3's form but teacher 1 has no real idea about applications and teacher 3 probably has a better understanding of Xingyiquan applications that 1 or 2. Teacher 2's Hebei looks very different. he knows applications but some of them are not as good as teacher 3 and some of them are just plain going to get you hit in the face if you are not careful





Not sure what you are saying here.


I do not take tests nor has any teacher I have had given tests, TCMA has no belt ranks
I know the 5 elements form
I know the 5 elements linking form
I know the 5 elements staff form
I do not know the animal forms (officially) I have been shown tiger.
I did comment on the 5 roads and I do not remember what I said. I did see something that looked a little like Bashi that was being called the 5 elements or 5 roads or something like that

Hey thanks for the advice and yes fajin is the way I've seen it spelled. It's where you have like an live energy shoot through your entire body, so that all of you is in the attack. We've never done sparring with Hsing-I, and we only focus on breath when we are doing the forms, but when we are doing applications, master says not to worry about the breath, you train the breath so that when you do it you forget the breath but your body remembers what to do. That's not a direct quote but that's what I got from what he told us.

Yeah Hsing-I is some cool stuff, I'm not sure on the history with your school. I was told that it evolved from spear fighting and that you can do the 5 elements with a spear in your hand. (or Qiang). Which I thought as cool The only reason we test on it, is because it's part of the Shaolin-Do curriculum. I don't think they said it was from the temple but directly but as I don't recall the whole origin of the top of my head I'll stop there.

As far as what I was saying, I mean I have been introduced to Hsing-I and I was present for one of the seminars on it. So though I've been shown it, I've not tested for Shaolin-Do rank with it. If that makes more sense.

I heard there is a staff form but I've not seen it, there is also suppose to be a spear, and sword form as well. Likewise though I've only heard of these and not seen it yet.

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Do yourself a favor... go out to Youtube & look up Xingyi 5 Roads & Linkage... watch everybody else. Let us know what you think then.

Hmmm yeah I can see your point on the differences. I wish you could see the way my instructor does it, I'm not saying Elder Master is doing it wrong, it just seems different. It's hard to put into words. There is an internal flow that I didn't see in those two video links that where posted. I've never met Elder Master, I just know when I watch my instructor do it, it's like a combination of the other videos I see and the way elder master did it in those videos. I know elder master was breaking it down though and showing peace at a time so maybe it would look different if he was doing it full speed.

I think if you kinda put this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfAi3OdD4oQ&feature=related and those of elder master together then i kinda resembles a bit of what it looks like when I see it. It just like trying to explain a car when you've never seen the model, so I try and say two models that look closest to it...

and I guess that is everyone's point that it is different then a lot of the other Xingyi out there.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The only historically verifiable source of Xingyiquan is Dai family Xinyiquan. Li Luoneng learned Xinyi from the Dai family and he developed Xingyiquan what many call Shanxi Xingyiquan. After that you get Hebei[h=1][/h]

 

[Xue Sheng]

I was pressed for time on my last post.

Hey thanks for the advice and yes fajin is the way I've seen it spelled. It's where you have like an live energy shoot through your entire body, so that all of you is in the attack. We've never done sparring with Hsing-I, and we only focus on breath when we are doing the forms, but when we are doing applications, master says not to worry about the breath, you train the breath so that when you do it you forget the breath but your body remembers what to do. That's not a direct quote but that's what I got from what he told us.

Yeah Hsing-I is some cool stuff, I'm not sure on the history with your school. I was told that it evolved from spear fighting and that you can do the 5 elements with a spear in your hand. (or Qiang). Which I thought as cool The only reason we test on it, is because it's part of the Shaolin-Do curriculum. I don't think they said it was from the temple but directly but as I don't recall the whole origin of the top of my head I'll stop there.

As far as what I was saying, I mean I have been introduced to Hsing-I and I was present for one of the seminars on it. So though I've been shown it, I've not tested for Shaolin-Do rank with it. If that makes more sense.

I heard there is a staff form but I've not seen it, there is also suppose to be a spear, and sword form as well. Likewise though I've only heard of these and not seen it yet.

It is very easy to fall into a pattern of exhale strike, it can happen rather naturally. My second sifu was the one that pointed that out and said that if you can only strike on an exhale then that is exactly when he would attack, right after you exhale. Because you cannot strike on an inhale. There for we would breath normally when doing just about everything.

There is some talk about Xingyi being based on the spear and it is possible but the only historically verifiable source is the Dai family. And there is a lot more to Xingyi than you can see in a seminar, Stance training, 5 elements, 5 elements linking, animal forms, animal forms linking, Bashi, two person forms, staff, spear, various bladed weapons, needles and others depending on style and lineage.

I think if you kinda put this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfAi3OdD4oQ&feature=related and those of elder master together then i kinda resembles a bit of what it looks like when I see it. It just like trying to explain a car when you've never seen the model, so I try and say two models that look closest to it...

and I guess that is everyone's point that it is different then a lot of the other Xingyi out there.

The style linked is Che Style which comes from Che Yizhai who was a student of Li Luoneng

There are 3 main styles Shanxi, Hebei and Henan but there are multiple sub styles off of these

 

[Blaze Dragon]

I was pressed for time on my last post.

No worries I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me

There is some talk about Xingyi being based on the spear and it is possible but the only historically verifiable source is the Dai family. And there is a lot more to Xingyi than you can see in a seminar, Stance training, 5 elements, 5 elements linking, animal forms, animal forms linking, Bashi, two person forms, staff, spear, various bladed weapons, needles and others depending on style and lineage.

Hmmm I'm not sure where SD gets it from I'd have to ask sometime... As far as more to it then can be in one seminar, I completely understand. The seminar was only for the animals, and it was just meant as an introduction to the material. Like I mentioned though I am very very new to the techniques. However what I have been taught is awesome stuff I think I like the stories to. I am told a story about a move we do with the foot work for crushing fist (wood). Please excuse my spelling in advance as I've heard the story from my sifu I didn't read it. There was a man named Quo, (not sure how to spell sounds like ka-woah), and he was a famous xingyi guy, he had mastered crushing fist, he was challenged but I dont' remember the challenger's name, they signed a death weaver saying that if one died it was a test of skill among masters so the other was not held accountable. He fought and ended up killing the man. Someone, student of friend of the dead challenger, hid the document or something and he was arrested for murder. in prison they died a ball and chain to his one hand and one ankle. He worked on his crushing fist in prison and would have to drag up his back foot. this type of drag with the back foot at the moment of punching we call "half step quo" since he developed it don't know how historically accurate it is, but I believe my Sifu and I think it's a cool story

May I ask you a question? Seeing as how you are an experienced Xingyi guy. judging just by those videos from BL, What do you think? Is it recognizable as Xingyi to you? What are your thoughts on that?

I mean I do know there is supposed to be 900 forms in our system, i don't know because I've only heard of something like 200 or so, but with all that material I know not everyone in the entire system will learn all of it. So each person kinda picks a fields to study and master so part of it will live on. So I think there will be some differences form school to school and each teacher will be better at one thing then another.

I know it's unrelated to Xingyi, but I think there was a part talking about long fist. There is a form one of the instructors is doing and the video is called long fist. This Sifu Joe one of the best ones in my area, he runs his own school and I love watching it. just thought I might share, I dont' know this form or how it's supposed to look but I imagin hes doing it the right way, as he's always taking his art extremely seriously and loves it like most of the rest of us.

 

[clfsean]

I know it's unrelated to Xingyi, but I think there was a part talking about long fist. There is a form one of the instructors is doing and the video is called long fist. This Sifu Joe one of the best ones in my area, he runs his own school and I love watching it. just thought I might share, I dont' know this form or how it's supposed to look but I imagin hes doing it the right way, as he's always taking his art extremely seriously and loves it like most of the rest of us.

No sorry... that's not long fist. That's a SD rendition of long fist. The guy is certainly athletic to run the pace he did, but that is long fist is set pattern/sequence only. The basics are SD, not long fist. The power generation is SD, not long fist. The application of technique is SD, not long fist. The understanding of the techniques in the set is SD, not long fist.

Long fist (in most any version) should resemble something like this...

There are other versions of long fist so this is by no means "the" definition, but it is a good representation.

Notice how she moves, everything extends, everything finishes, her whole body is involved in generating power & then expressing it. Not rushed, not shortened, not feeling forced.

 

[Blaze Dragon]

No sorry... that's not long fist. That's a SD rendition of long fist. The guy is certainly athletic to run the pace he did, but that is long fist is set pattern/sequence only. The basics are SD, not long fist. The power generation is SD, not long fist. The application of technique is SD, not long fist. The understanding of the techniques in the set is SD, not long fist.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I do see a difference in the videos, I do see a difference in graces, and extension, but I'm not sure as to what you mean but it's SD and not long fist, I don't know long fist. I am assuming you do long fist correct? I am just curious to get some outside perspective. I by no means am going to judge anyone in our out of SD I am just looking for some good conversation and some different perspectives. So I can get a more rounded idea of the differences in style from one school to the next.

thank you