"Selling" Systema

Yes i assumed that Systema doesn't have sparring
but that assumptions is based on what i've seen.
and i've seen alot of video clips of training and actual classes that i observed not participated.

If i m wrong and there is actual sparring in Systema then sorry i didn't know...

You practice kicking while rolling or while on the ground?

checked again, there is no Ken Good on Vladimir's page.

Vladimir or Mikhail are they the only people who can show evasion?

About Sambo - ask Vladimir.
I might be wrong but i think he should know sambo.

I am not trying to say that one is better then other,
all i m trying to say is in order to LEARN something,
you have to practice it, and demonstrating the punch is not the same as the actual punch.

I can say the same to you,
people from systema come to us we show them how to make locks how to execute throws. I call it knowledge exchange.

I agree systema is not one of the things that i know
i m not arguing that, i m arguing the way it is being practiced.

Furtry
i might be wrong but people judge if the system (not SYSTEMA) works if it has some results, maybe that's why people tend to compete.
What results, Systema can show?

I would say that life is a game.
Again i m not trying to say that systema is bad you both misinterpreted me.
 
"i might be wrong but people judge if the system (not SYSTEMA) works if it has some results, maybe that's why people tend to compete.
What results, Systema can show?"

After reading your post I don't feel that Furtry or I misunderstood your posts. Your intent has been very clear. Honesty with ones self is a cornerstone of learning Systema.

As for theyour quote above, results are a personal matter that need to be experienced first hand. Looking for someone else to validate or confirm results for you is weak and shallow. If you want to know, seek out Vlad, voice your concerns and step up to the plate.

With in the first 10 minutes of meeting Vlad I knew speaking up was foolish, BUT when I was given the chance I pushed him and got my answers, first hand (or fist as the case may be). I did the same with Mikhail and once again got my answer, first hand. Nothing else would satisfy you, nor should it. The best advice is to stop watching video clips and step up with your questions.....in person. Experince the RESULTS.

mark
 
Furtry
i might be wrong but people judge if the system (not SYSTEMA) works if it has some results, maybe that's why people tend to compete.
What results, Systema can show?

I would say that life is a game.
Click to expand...
When a drunk is kicking you in the face as you lay in your pool of piss and vomit there is no referee to save you or declare a winner. There are no judges awarding points or medals, only pain and maybe the ultimate truth of death.
The results I can show are the ones that are proven to all by the fact that I am here, telling you that, due to Systema that drunk never succeeded in hurting me.

My last point is this; If I have to sell it to you, you never wanted it in the first place. I also don't care if you buy it or not.
 
How do I verify results...

Honest training. How well can I do something against an opponent trying to do something to me, and trying to stop me doing it to them. How do I do against people in and out of the club? Against guys I used to spar against? Against people the same size or bigger? Against people with more experience?

FWIW over the time I've taken systema I've gone from a guy who couldn't throw a yellow belt my size to someone who's thrown black belts more than my size. I've gotten standing locks against people I felt I had no business doing it to. And not slow either.

My observation is that for me, the most difficult people are the ones who have done systema and gotten more systema hours in, especially with Vlad or Mikhail. It is as simple as that.

"You practice kicking while rolling or while on the ground?"

That could be taken 2 ways, but yes to both ways. We kick people who are down, and the people who are down will kick as well.

"Vladimir or Mikhail are they the only people who can show evasion?"

No.

'checked again, there is no Ken Good on Vladimir's page.'

the site is under his partner's name, however, I posted the url in my last post. If you hunt around you will see that PCR is an abbreviated systema course for police.

Vladimir is not a Sambist, although a few of his students have been.
 
RobP,
What kind of codec do I need in order to view the .mpg's?
WMP keeps telling me that there's an error trying to download the codec.

Thanks,




-Jackal
 
Try running AVIcodec on the mpeg - it'll tell you the codec you need, and give you a web location to find it. Check the tools section of DVDRHelp.com for free download of AVICodec
 
I can view them on Windows Media Player 9, and that's about as technical as I get when it comes to web clips :idunno:

AFAIK they were created in the same format as the other clips on the site, at least I used the same programme.

cheers
 
It's pretty clear that I need to experience Systema first hand in order to appreciate videos like this. I look at them and I am still sceptacle:

Mass Attack: For the most part the people are all half heartedly floundering around. The blonde haired chap in the middle is the only one that appears to be fighting but even he seems to pull every punch before they land. In fact, you be hard pressed to find any strike in this video that landed.

The Other Videos: I like the kicking defenses with Mikhail (sp?) and the tall boxer looking guy. But certainly from a lay persons point of view the rest of the vids look very fabricated. Almost WWF.

Here's a few observations that I have made when watching Systema videos:

1. In every video that I have on Systema, the attackers hand strikes all seem to come from the outside in, like a haymaker.
2. The techniques always seem to work.
3. The attacker does not seem interested in preserving themself. For example, in the video with the large, knife wielding guy and Mikhail (sp?)...he thrusts once with the knife and then sits there while the technique is applied on him...in the "real" situations that I have experienced, no one attacks once. This guy should have at least retracted his hand to start another attack, or followed the knife thrust with a check to Mikhail's(sp?) hand. It could still be done just as slow while adding an extra element of realism. Also, when people go down they tend to hang on to whatever they can grab, but I never see any example's of the the attacker fighting the throw/takedown in Systema videos. It seems like once the technique begins they give up and put all of their focus on rolling out of the throw.

Don't get me wrong, in bujinkan we rolled out of everything too. However, it was always interesting to mix it up and resist the take downs. Most people had trained so long against oponents that rolled out (aka ninjitsu folk) that they were not able to throw a person that resisted and grabbed onto the limbs and clothing of the one executing the throw (aka most of the world).

Like I said, it I need to experience it =)
 
Hi Kyle

The problem with many of the clips is that they are from instructional material or situations. The knife clip you mention, for example - the pause was while Mikhail was explaining what he was doing. I'll be working on getting more workshop and class clips up over the next few weeks to hopefully show more "live" work.

As far as grabbing your thrower goes - funny enough Mikhail had us working a drill this weekend where you are thrown but then throw your attacker on the way down.

I agree that take down / throwing work needs to be done at all levels of resistance - the problem is in getting training partners who can take falls at speed :)

I think if you check it out, you will like it. A siezabel part of the regular UK crew are / were bujinkan people.

cheers
 
OKey let's start.
to Mark
i might be wrong but people judge if the system
Click to expand...
i meant people in general any 1 who judges systema and as i said in my preveious post i do not.

to Furtry
The results I can show are the ones that are proven to all by the fact that I am here, telling you that, due to Systema that drunk never succeeded in hurting me.
Click to expand...
well i m here too aint i?
plus to that i can say that there was alot of times when i was in bad situations that i got out of very nicely,
plus to that i have alot of friends who had bad situations and they got out of them.
some of them trains Systema, some trains Sambo, most of them don't train at all.
does that proves that the system of NOT TRAINING is working?

to RobP
thanks for clips
is it something wrong with my connection or server gives out only with the speed 10k\s?
I might be wrong but i think in mass2.mpg they guy just blew up and started hitting not training but hitting
and the guy he was hitting did got hurt
and it took 4 people to stop him.

to all
All you judjing me to say something bad about systema
First i never did say anything bad
i only said that the way it is teached or shown looks weak.
If you all think that it's the best way and the only way possible then i will never be able to prove you wrong nor will you prove me wrong.
I have my belives you have yours.


In our school we try to learn from other schools, bjj, judo, freestyle wrestling
do you guys do that?

to Jellyman
whats FWIW ?
Stratego is a different name for Systema?
Vladimir is not a sambist but i belive he was in Special ops
and i might be wrong but i think they learn Sambo.
 
"to RobP
thanks for clips
is it something wrong with my connection or server gives out only with the speed 10k\s?"

Sorry, can't help! My technical knowledge is very limited!

"I might be wrong but i think in mass2.mpg they guy just blew up and started hitting not training but hitting and the guy he was hitting did got hurt
and it took 4 people to stop him."

Well Barry is Irish so he soemtimes get carried away a bit :) . The other guys were just telling him to calm down a bit, not trying to take him out. This was the first stage of that particular drill so everyone was supposed to be going slow-ish to start.

"In our school we try to learn from other schools, bjj, judo, freestyle wrestling
do you guys do that?"

Students in my class include a boxer, a few doormen, karate guys, kung fu guys, basically people from many styles. I'd say 80% of our people were epxerienced (5+ years) in other arts. In addition I've regularly trained over the years with friends from other arts.

"Vladimir is not a sambist but i belive he was in Special opsand i might be wrong but i think they learn Sambo."

Or Systema.
 
Man, now I really want to see those videos. Can’t wait ‘till I get home so I can give jellyman’s suggestion a try.

i only said that the way it is teached or shown looks weak.
Click to expand...

Outwardly, I agree, some of the soft work does look weak if you’re not sure what the people are trying to accomplish.

The definition of sparring is kind of loose here. If you mean, “Do Systema practitioners test themselves by having people in the class genuinely and honestly try to attack them?” then, yes, we do spar. If you mean sparring as in two people, facing each other and circling, mono a mono, then no, chances are you won’t see that. One tests survivability in an assault, the other is about pride fighting and competing.

There's a good chance you just haven't observed any "hard" or "short" work performed in a class.
 
well i m here too aint i?
plus to that i can say that there was alot of times when i was in bad situations that i got out of very nicely,
plus to that i have alot of friends who had bad situations and they got out of them.
some of them trains Systema, some trains Sambo, most of them don't train at all.
does that proves that the system of NOT TRAINING is working?
Click to expand...
My point is that I don't need to compete to prove Systema is effective.
Or do your friends have "NO TARINING" style competitions to show how effective they are.
 
whats FWIW ?
Click to expand...

For What It's Worth

Stratego is a different name for Systema?
Click to expand...

Affiliate Instructors

Missouri


Instructor(s): Drew Bowman
705B SE Melody Lane, #312
Missouri, MO
United States
Phone: 1-888-569-5444
Email: [email protected]
Web: www.strategosinternational.com
Click to expand...

You can find that information here:

http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=affiliates&loc=us

Ken is an associate [edit - ie of strategos]. They have a forum, you can link to the vids from there and verify what I say.

Vladimir is not a sambist but i belive he was in Special ops
and i might be wrong but i think they learn Sambo.
Click to expand...

I thought so too, but I asked him, and he has no formal background in sambo. Nor is this mentioned in his interviews. So in his case no. The fact is Rupokashni Boi varies from unit to unit. RobP met a spetsnaz unit in Moscow this summer that only does systema for H2H, what was the name again Rob?
 
In our school we try to learn from other schools, bjj, judo, freestyle wrestling do you guys do that?
Click to expand...

I have worked out with (as in sparred) guys with backgrounds in Sambo, bjj, wrestling, muy thai, kalari payat, judo, boxing, aikido, aikijujutsu, japanese jujutsu, karate, kickboxing, wing chun, tae kwon do, Kali, hapkido, tai chi, and probably others I am missing.

I personally have formally studied/achieved rank in boxing, japanse jujutsu, judo, boxing, and karate, over the cumulative span of 10 years, the last 6 steady (i e in sucession). I have been doing systema for 5 since all that.

Some of the guys who come to our own little club have multiple backgrounds, quite serious MA people from the beginning.

Given unlimited time and wealth, I would probably check out catch wrestling with Ceccine or maybe go to Sheng Wu. I'll be working out with Jimmy Wu's guys this summer in Toronto as part of a reunion with one of my jujutsu brothers.

There is no prohibition against working out with others. We are all adults, we can do whatever we want. Systema is a very egalitarian subculture.

[edited for clarity]
 
1. In every video that I have on Systema, the attackers hand strikes all seem to come from the outside in, like a haymaker.
2. The techniques always seem to work.
3. The attacker does not seem interested in preserving themself. For example, in the video with the large, knife wielding guy and Mikhail (sp?)...he thrusts once with the knife and then sits there while the technique is applied on him...in the "real" situations that I have experienced, no one attacks once. This guy should have at least retracted his hand to start another attack, or followed the knife thrust with a check to Mikhail's(sp?) hand. It could still be done just as slow while adding an extra element of realism. Also, when people go down they tend to hang on to whatever they can grab, but I never see any example's of the the attacker fighting the throw/takedown in Systema videos. It seems like once the technique begins they give up and put all of their focus on rolling out of the throw.
Click to expand...
Please see the following clip, "Moscow2K1", on my site. At the end there is a demo of a live knife attack. This is an explination by the man in it (NYCRonin)

I checked out Jellyman's site (sorry that I havent visited it before, J-Man) and I seem to be the 'member of the constabulary' he mentions.
I have been registered in Bullshido for awhile, find it interesting but have never posted before, I believe. Since my experience in Moscow was mentioned, I will offer some details in an effort to flesh out that clip abit.
At the time of the recording, I already had enough experience in the m.a. to know the difference between going light or heavy. Either doing a training exercise or going at it with speed and intent.
I am a veteran of the NYC Department of Corrections by trade and, frankly; I was willing to risk a hammering to see just how effective the gentleman depicted there with me could be. For my own reasons and for the possible passing on of what I would have learned to others who face the physical violence inhearent in dealing with some of the extremely violent individuals incarcerated on the well known vacation spot known as Rikers Island.

As Jellyman mentions, Mr. Ryabco and I had already echanged an understanding that whatever I would do with him would be done forcefully, fast and with intent to hurt him (not that he seemed to be troubled by this) and I would take the responsability for any damages I might suffer. I tend to be a 'prove it to me' kind of guy and I would not, could not; waste the time and money invested to go to Moscow and come back with any 'what if' doubts in my mind.

The attack I attempted looks odd to many familiar with knife methods, and with good reason. I had already seen Ryabco handle attacks from others -- the basics (straight stab, icepick downward, right to left slash) and some stuff I remembered doing while in FMA (done by another MUCH more familiar with FMA than I).

Truthfully, I was abit surprised when Ryabco tossed that knife to me. He knew damn well that I now had a functional weapon in hand and I was no dabbler in m.a. and would try any sneaky stunt to test him. (This had already been established a few days before when he spent an hour, away from the regular training group; with me going at him. Striking, grappling, tried to bite him, tried to groin grab him -- the kind of stuff an inmate will do to a CO or another inmate. Never got him...no doubt in his ability...well, at least I managed to get him to break a sweat by the end of the exchange). I thought he was crazy to pick me out of the group -- I was sincerely going to try to hurt him. I was not going to try to kill him of course -- I am experienced enough to reasonably control how deep the attack would penetrate...reasonably, but there is no guarantee when bodies are in motion and a blade is involved.
I was determined to make some contact though, I know there will be doubters and detractors to what I write here; but I know what I was determined to try. In retrospect, I must have been crazy. A foreign national, in Russia; a LEO at that -- poking a hole in a Spetsnaz Col.? What the hell was I thinking?

Anyway, since I had already seen Ryabco counter numerous m.a. knife work, I decided I would go 'gladiator school' on his smiling *** and attack with something that I had seen done numerous times by inmates during a 'shanking' (knife attack). Something I knew firsthand to be unorthodox and effective (thats why most m.a. have trouble recognizing this -- its a jailhouse tactic). Its an attack that I had practiced myself, after seeing the bloody results at work; and I often had used it to attack other m.a. when practicing knife work.

In a right lead position, blade in right hand; the idea is to move close enough to the target to bridge the gap with a simple burst forward. The hands start slightly before the feet. The left hand sweeps across the defenders arms/hands (moving r to l) to engage them and keep them from raising and blocking the right. The right moves l to r - in a slash to the neck/face area. when done by an experienced inmate - its sorta 'lather, rinse, repeat' and the slashing continues as the left keeps the forward pressure to move the defender backward. Its not fancy, its not conventional to most mainstream m.a. knife work. Just simple, basic Rikers Island 'ryu'.

Before the attack, I figured I would get in at least a touch and I could stop any further motion before I did too much damage -- but Ryabco would feel steel regardless. (And I would get my *** kicked by the Russians in the area afterward -- thus ending my investigation into Systema and provide an interesting life story, after I healed in NYC. How the hell I would have explained this to the DOC, I have no idea).

That was my mindset, my plan of attack and my attempt. All a total waste of time. As I began to extend my arms and begin the burst forward, Ryabco snaked his l arm between the two levels my arms were going to create and engaged the knifehand before the attack could develop. Sort of an attack into an attack. What the vid doesnt record well is what followed. Ryabcos body blocks the view of his r. fist cracking me, knuckles first; on the left side of my face - on the eyesocket edge/cheekbone area. No recording medium can repeat the *crunching* sound in my head when his fist made contact, and I remember feeling (in that far away slo-mo experience similar to a car crash "What the **** was that? Thats my face crunching!")
In the meantime, his left encircles my r. arm and allows me be moved abit to my right. Then he uses the leverage to swing me back to my left as his right made damn solid contact to the area over my heart. (At this point, it was very much over. maybe some super conditioned athelete could have taken more punishment but after the shot to the head and the sledgehammer to the chest - I didnt want anymore than to have this guy as my friend).
I remember the clip shows Ryabco moving to my left, bending me over abit and his delivering a right (I think it was a right) downward and forward palm strike to send me to the floor. (Thanks buddy, I was headed there anyway). I remember staying there, belly down; for a few moments -- I had no desire to try to get up and recieve a 'blessing' simliar to what he had given to me during our time together a few days before. Once I knew it was over, all I could think to do is extend my hands forward and clap a couple of times -- applause from the heart, I was glad it was over.
Even at that, when I did get up; I tried a few more attacks but they werent really worth ****. I moved without commitment because the pain was setting in and the room was begining to do the electric slide. Mercifully, Ryabco had me give up the knife to another participant.

I was dazed for the rest of the day and hurt for days afterward with all the 'love' I had received from my new friend. He told a Russian friend (Seraphim) there that of all the particpants at this training opportunity - I was the only one he was 'afraid of'. When Seraphim told me this, I asked why he might be afraid of lil old me...after all, he had aquitted himself in fine form. Seraphims answer? 'No Rob, with the way you attacked him during training; he was afraid he would acidentally hit you too hard and seriously hurt you".

So, thats the story behind the clip. I offer it here for those who want to understand what they saw and what was on the attackers mind. Although this forum has its contingent of guys who seem to just be content with tearing into any post from who they consider an 'outsider' - I also have been in here enough to know that there are also those who have sincere curiousity about such things.
Thats why I took the time to post my first hand experience.
*************************************************************

As you can guess, I did not expect this post to ever be on this forum. I have been asked about that clip a number of times over the last few years and this is about as complete an account as I have to offer.
_________________
Rob Green
SYSTEMA/New York
www.rusanyc.com
Click to expand...
 
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