Self Defense Techniques - How Many?

[Flying Crane]

I am putting this question out to everyone as a curiosity. I would like to know how many Self Defense techniques your system has in its curriculum.

What I mean by Self Defense Technique is this: A codified pattern used and taught as a standard response to a standard attack. This would potentially include evasion movements, blocking/parrying movements, and countering movements such as strikes, joint manipulations, and the like.

In Tracy's kenpo, we have a huge number of these, 250 up to first degree black belt, and 381 for the entire system, plus numerous variations on these techniques. I suspect this approach to learning is not the norm in many martial arts, and I am curious to hear how other arts view this approach.

Does your art use this kind of thing? If so, how many do you have? What percentage of your formalized curriculum does this make up? Any further thoughts that might add to the discussion, please do.

 

[RoninPimp]

The styles I train in do not do this. I don't think it serves much purpose to try and figure theses things out other than for curiosity's sake. What I mean is, there is no training benefit to it. Even with a set number of techniques, once you factor in variables of the same technique you're quickly into thousands of variations.

Worry about positions and/or ranges and develop effective personal tools in all positions/ranges IMO...

 

[SFC JeffJ]

In the Shiho Karano Kenpo Jitsu I study, pretty much everything is a self defense technique. So we are talking five wrist bends/locks, roughly fifteen throws and takedowns, fingerlocks and come-alongs, along with striking, and all the variations thereof. I think it's important to learn as many SD techniques as possible to find which ones work best for you. Also, learning all those that might not nessicarily work for you allows you to expose others to them in the future. Your students might love them.

Jeff

 

[Xue Sheng]

In Tai Chi there is a 2-person form that I imagine you could consider as an attack/defense response drill and there are also 2 person forms in Xingyi and Bagua that could be viewed in the same light.

However I have never had it drilled into me in anyway that this is the response for that. One Tai Chi form can have multiple applications depending on the force that is coming at you.

In push hands practice you are basically redirecting force that is coming to you by sensing your opponent while trying not to give your opponent any idea as to where your center is. Therefore since no attack can be expected to be the same you do not have one set response.

However you can also be very efficient martial artists if you know, and here is the biggest catch, understand the 13 postures. But this means understanding the variations of the 8 doors and the uses of the 5 directions.

As for Xingyi, I trained it years ago and just started officially training with a Sifu again a couple of weeks ago so I do not feel I can answer this question properly for Xingyi. But I can say that in the 5 elements there are various applications of each of the 5 elements and depending on how you interpret the attack (what element you feel it belongs to) you respond with the necessary element to defend against it. Example if the attack is considered fire you counter with water. Also Xingyi like unlike other martial arts tends not to backup or retract, it can be very aggressive.

I don’t know if that answers your question, but I tried.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don’t know if that answers your question, but I tried.

Yes, I think that was a good answer.

I see that two-person forms could be viewed in a similar light to SD techniques.

In my opinion, single-person forms don't fit the description because often the movement and application can be interpreted many ways, and so is less structured and codified than SD techniques in that regard.

 

[Flying Crane]

The styles I train in do not do this. I don't think it serves much purpose to try and figure theses things out other than for curiosity's sake. What I mean is, there is no training benefit to it. Even with a set number of techniques, once you factor in variables of the same technique you're quickly into thousands of variations.

Worry about positions and/or ranges and develop effective personal tools in all positions/ranges IMO...

What systems do you train, please?

 

[michaeledward]

My school uses a 16 Technique per belt formula in American Kenpo ... with some variation.

13 Techniques for Yellow Belt
16 Techniques for Orange Belt - Total of 29 Techniques
16 Techniques for Purple Belt - Total of 45 Techniques
16 Techniques for Blue Belt - Total of 61 Techniques
16 Techniques for Green Belt - Total of 77 Techniques
16 Techniques for 3rd Brown Belt - Total of 93 Techniques
16 Techniques for 2nd Brown Belt - Total of 109 Techniques
20 Techniques for 1st Brown Belt - Total of 129 Techniques
22 Techniques for 1st Black Belt - Total of 151 Techniques

I think the 2nd and 3rd Black Belt charts have 4 new base techniques and 16 Extentions. The 4th and 5th Black Belt charts bring us to a total of 259 self-defense techniques.

We also have the usual forms and sets:
Short and Long 1, 2, & 3. Form 4, 5, & 6.
Blocking, Kicking, Strike, Stance, Finger and Coordination sets 1 & 2. Two Man Set. Bo Staff Set. Club (or Knife set).

Currently, I have all of our material through 1st Black. So, I am not certain of the requirements above that level.

 

[RoninPimp]

BJJ, Judo, MMA

 

[Makalakumu]

BJJ, Judo, MMA

BJJ and Judo both have some self defense Kata lists. They are codified patterns and required at grading.

 

[still learning]

Hello, We also have many techniques to learn and practice too. Just wanted to share for chokes only, we must learn all 21 chokes holds and escapes.

We train one neck at a time.....muliples are not taught yet because most people have only one.......................Aloha

 

[RoninPimp]

BJJ and Judo both have some self defense Kata lists. They are codified patterns and required at grading.

Judo does. Judo kata is why I've been an Ikkyu for 10 years. BJJ does not have any kata whatsoever.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i'm a kenpo guy myself, but i'm given to understand that self-defense techniques as we understand them are pretty rare.

 

[Makalakumu]

Judo does. Judo kata is why I've been an Ikkyu for 10 years. BJJ does not have any kata whatsoever.

I just looked at a Gracie Jujutsu self defense book in BnN the other day. The subject of the book was self defense and everything in there certainly looked like kata lists. In fact, the Kodenkan Tanto Kata looked suspiciously familiar.

 

[kamishinkan]

In Kamishin Ryu we have 24 Kempo (Hard Fist) forms and 25 Jujutsu (Soft Fist) forms for Shodan. For Nidan there are 15 Kempo forms and 20 Jujtusu forms and 5 defense against Bo. For Sandan you perform the 39 previous Kempo techniques in various "henka" (variations) that have been taught over the period of training. There are also (along with all of the previous Jujutsu waza) 12 additional Jujtusu waza. This pattern continues through Yondan, Godan and additional Shihan training. This may not seem like alot but when you factor in all of the variations and different attack applications it quickly multiplies in to the several hundreds as far as possibilities.
This always brings up the discussion on if patterned training like this is relevant. In our system we do not look at the techniques as exacting defenses against attacks (although if you are attacked exactly like the technique it could work) the teaching is the principles that make the techniques work. We train on the form, body position relative to the attack, posture, distance, etc. All of this teaches the student to be able to adapt to any attack using the principles learned.

 

[michaeledward]

i'm a kenpo guy myself, but i'm given to understand that self-defense techniques as we understand them are pretty rare.

Can you expand on this thought a bit ... I'm not sure I understand what you are saying?

 

[RoninPimp]

I just looked at a Gracie Jujutsu self defense book in BnN the other day. The subject of the book was self defense and everything in there certainly looked like kata lists. In fact, the Kodenkan Tanto Kata looked suspiciously familiar.

-It is not trained like kata in any way.

 

[Makalakumu]

-It is not trained like kata in any way.

First of all, who is your teacher? I'm just curious, because this person may be doing things a little differently...

Secondly, "trained like kata" is an interesting statement. "It" as you have defined above, is definitely a kata list. I assume you aren't denying this anymore. If that is the case, then how can it not be trained like kata?

I've trained in kodokan judo and kodenkan jujutsu. The BJJ knife defense kata is basically bogarted from both of these arts. Perhaps there is an effective way to teach kata and an ineffective way...

 

[RoninPimp]

For the love of God man, it is not kata. It is NOT done in a pre-arranged way. Therefore it is NOT kata. I have never heard anybody ever refer to what BJJ guys do as kata. You looked at book pictures and you get kata from that?

Since you asked, I have been training in BJJ for 9 years (in June) with Lloyd Irvin.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

My system has more then 400 total techniques or combinations there of.

 

[BlackSheep]

The styles I train in do not do this. I don't think it serves much purpose to try and figure theses things out other than for curiosity's sake. What I mean is, there is no training benefit to it. Even with a set number of techniques, once you factor in variables of the same technique you're quickly into thousands of variations.

Worry about positions and/or ranges and develop effective personal tools in all positions/ranges IMO...

I agree 100%

And if anyone cares, primarily boxing and wrestling. I have done a little training in some of the other arts; I have an orange belt in TJJ for example.