Self defense needs to be grounded in truth to be ethical.

[drop bear]

Except that particular demonstration is as fraught with problems as most others. He gives them exactly one target, so he doesn't have to worry about anything else, and they have no tools for controlling his movement. Let me add in just a heel trip, and things might change. They might not, but that demonstration wont' answer that question and isn't any truer to actual combat than most grip releases are, taken out of the context of overall training.

You should test that and see if You are correct.

 

[drop bear]

I didn't feel the video was even worth responding to. Why would anyone think you can teach effective head movement and positioning to a group of people who know little to nothing about self defense in a 2 hour or even 2 day class?

You could teach that in two days. And that head movement is the difference between striking successfully and not.

And so you could train for years and if you haven't covered that aspect it will compromise everything else.

 

[drop bear]

So, trying to "force honesty" with dishonest claims?

Again, shameful.

Show me how my claim does not match the reality of your training then.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You should test that and see if You are correct.

I don't have him handy to do so. I do know that similar tricks are used all the time in demonstrations to make things look impressive. I can handle anybody's punch if I make them start a full step away, make them give it as a looping roundhouse, and tell them which arm to use. Restrict enough options (like "you can only punch at my head"), and things get significantly easier. I do know that guy's better at that movement than I am, so I can't really test using myself as the "dodger". If I had a boxer handy (which I don't), I'd bet they're better at it than me, and would make a nice partner for the test.

I'm pretty sure it's not as invincible as shown in that video. I think Anderson Silva demonstrated that pretty nicely.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Show me how my claim does not match the reality of your training then.

You pull this kind of crap, and call words "weasels"? Man, you have lost your moral compass in your personal crusade to find something wrong with my training. I'm sorry Aikido hurt you. I don't teach what you think I teach. Literally every assumption you've made about my training has been wrong. I have no responsibility nor need to prove anything to you. You're just some numpty on the interwebs who's gotten a hard-on about proving something with no evidence, while making claims that others are doing exact that.

 

[dvcochran]

You could teach that in two days. And that head movement is the difference between striking successfully and not.

And so you could train for years and if you haven't covered that aspect it will compromise everything else.

So in two days you are going to teach the lady who, 6 months later, is leaving work and walking to her car, or the student walking to the quad, how to effectively use head movement when they are surprised attacked?
Show me the video.

 

[dvcochran]

I wouldn't.

This idea that you have to somehow bend reality to fit some sort of time constraint is kind of silly.

If you can't teach the skills in the time frame. Then you can't teach the skills.

I am not certain, but I think I read the quoted post differently. As to say "if the person cannot learn the skill in two hours they are never going to learn it.
In and of itself that can be true. We have likely all seen these people in class and yes, it can be frustrating from a instructor standpoint. Yes, this could be a teacher OR student issue.
What is also true and much more common is when a group of people learn a skill and do not do it enough to commit it to memory or develop muscle memory. If they did not do the skill at all for 6 months and then all came back together to practice, they would all do the skill at different levels. Either not remembering it at all (me) or doing it poorly upon first use.

Ala, a self defense 'class/demonstration'.

This idea that Anyone can teach head movement skill (or anything else) that they will be remembered 6 months later in a very stressful, fast paced encounter is the thing that is not just 'kind of silly' , It is down right dangerous and has brought the conversation full circle. What was being made fun of is now being supported.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yeah pretty much. So if you and maywhether have a jab sparring competition. Even though you are both doing the same technique. Maywhether will beat you up.

This is not because maywhether is magic but due to a bunch of back of house elements that are vital to making that technique work.

And so should you jump in the ring and get bashed. Even though you are both doing primarily the same technique. There are elements you are not doing that will loose you the fight.

This is also generally why TMA gets handled in MMA. Because they don't focus on a bunch of vital stuff that wins fights.

You will notice when TMA that does well. They have addressed these issues.

By that notion, MMA is terrible, because Connor McGregor got beat up by Maywhether.

If you set the bar at Maywhether, you've set the bar so high that 99% of professional boxers and 99.9% of professional MMA fighters won't even come close.

I wouldn't.

This idea that you have to somehow bend reality to fit some sort of time constraint is kind of silly.

If you can't teach the skills in the time frame. Then you can't teach the skills.

I am not certain, but I think I read the quoted post differently. As to say "if the person cannot learn the skill in two hours they are never going to learn it.
In and of itself that can be true. We have likely all seen these people in class and yes, it can be frustrating from a instructor standpoint. Yes, this could be a teacher OR student issue.
What is also true and much more common is when a group of people learn a skill and do not do it enough to commit it to memory or develop muscle memory. If they did not do the skill at all for 6 months and then all came back together to practice, they would all do the skill at different levels. Either not remembering it at all (me) or doing it poorly upon first use.

Ala, a self defense 'class/demonstration'.

This idea that Anyone can teach head movement skill (or anything else) that they will be remembered 6 months later in a very stressful, fast paced encounter is the thing that is not just 'kind of silly' , It is down right dangerous and has brought the conversation full circle. What was being made fun of is now being supported.

I'm not sure that everyone is quite getting DB's points. Let me see if I can rephrase them in a clearer fashion.

Individual techniques, such as you might be able to teach in a one-time self-defense class, aren't much use by themselves. Even if they are totally sound techniques, such as a jab or basic grip break, what makes them reliable and effective is an entire platform of supporting technical factors and physical and mental attributes.

If you give someone a few techniques without all those underlying factors which make them work and then stop, then all you are doing is giving them a false sense of confidence.

It's not really possible to instill the necessary elements in a one-time 2 hour class, so you shouldn't pretend you can by handing people a few techniques and leading the students to believe they can rely on those moves.

 

[Tez3]

I think we got his point which is that his 'verbal sparring' (his words not mine,) is what he does on MT. He phrases things exactly how he wants them to be taken...contentiously. If you have to rephrase it for him, he doesn't get the satisfaction of 'verbally sparring' with people on here.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Individual techniques, such as you might be able to teach in a one-time self-defense class, aren't much use by themselves. Even if they are totally sound techniques, such as a jab or basic grip break, what makes them reliable and effective is an entire platform of supporting technical factors and physical and mental attributes.

Agree! When you counter your opponent's attack, your opponent will counter your counter. It's like a tree that start to grow. You have to be able to handle your opponent's follow up reaction. That will require more MA training.

 

[drop bear]

I am not certain, but I think I read the quoted post differently. As to say "if the person cannot learn the skill in two hours they are never going to learn it.
In and of itself that can be true. We have likely all seen these people in class and yes, it can be frustrating from a instructor standpoint. Yes, this could be a teacher OR student issue.
What is also true and much more common is when a group of people learn a skill and do not do it enough to commit it to memory or develop muscle memory. If they did not do the skill at all for 6 months and then all came back together to practice, they would all do the skill at different levels. Either not remembering it at all (me) or doing it poorly upon first use.

Ala, a self defense 'class/demonstration'.

This idea that Anyone can teach head movement skill (or anything else) that they will be remembered 6 months later in a very stressful, fast paced encounter is the thing that is not just 'kind of silly' , It is down right dangerous and has brought the conversation full circle. What was being made fun of is now being supported.

If I taught open heart surgery. But only had a couple of hours to teach it. I would not teach the subject. Not teach some abridged get people killed version.

You can't just set an arbitrary time. It takes as long as it takes.

 

[drop bear]

I don't have him handy to do so. I do know that similar tricks are used all the time in demonstrations to make things look impressive. I can handle anybody's punch if I make them start a full step away, make them give it as a looping roundhouse, and tell them which arm to use. Restrict enough options (like "you can only punch at my head"), and things get significantly easier. I do know that guy's better at that movement than I am, so I can't really test using myself as the "dodger". If I had a boxer handy (which I don't), I'd bet they're better at it than me, and would make a nice partner for the test.

I'm pretty sure it's not as invincible as shown in that video. I think Anderson Silva demonstrated that pretty nicely.

Anderson silva was absolutely famous for having that great timing and head movement.

And is also famous for making all these TMA ideas work.

I mean I wonder if there is a connection?

 

[drop bear]

So what is the benchmark? How/when do you say a person has learned a skill? Certainly not in 2 hours. Never. Can they repeat what they have been shown in 2 hours? Sure. Who is going back 2 weeks later to test their proficiency.
I fully agree with your open heart surgery analogy. It is a totally different conversation and set of "skills" from your MMA classes. I doubt anything you do in your MMA classes transfers to our SD/SA classes.

So you don't have a way of knowing if what you are teaching works?

Is there consequence or accountability to any level of your training?

 

[wab25]

If I taught open heart surgery. But only had a couple of hours to teach it. I would not teach the subject. Not teach some abridged get people killed version.

This is actually a pretty good example. You certainly would not teach an abridged version of open heart surgery. But, they have come up with classes that can be taught in a couple hours, to beginners... CPR classes. These classes (the ones I have attended) have focused not at all on surgery of any kind... but on recognizing the signs and determining when medical help is needed. They focus on how to assess the situation without getting yourself injured in the process. They focus on how to get the help. Then, they used to spend a bunch of time pushing and blowing, which has "interesting" results. Many people, without this couple of hours of training, would just miss the signs, and never get help on the way. Or they freeze up not knowing what to do. Or, they would do something that either endangered themselves or made matters worse. That few hours training gave them things they could do, upon leaving the class, that do work. And none of it involves cutting someone open with a knife.

I think "self defense" classes / seminars need to be similar. Help people recognize the signs, and be more aware. Help them know when to get help, when should you call 9-11? When should you have a group with you? What is the most effective way to get help to you quickly? How to not make it worse. You can even add in some "pushing and blowing" drills, but they need to be in the right context. In the last few CPR classes I took, they were very clear that all the pushing in the world won't actually restart the heart in most situations. But what you are really trying to do, is keep the blood circulating, so that the rest of the body gets blood, particularly the brain, until qualified medical help arrives. This is why they have you call 9-11 first, before all the pushing starts.

 

[wab25]

Is there consequence or accountability to any level of your training?

There is for me. This is why I will not teach gun disarms to beginners. Before you train them, when they see the gun, they give up the $40 they are carrying and move along. The worst thing I could do, is give them the confidence to grab for the gun. I would be responsible for him getting shot, because my drills gave him the confidence to try something extremely risky, that got him hurt. I don't know how the legal system would view such a situation... but I know I would feel very responsible.

 

[Tez3]

There is for me. This is why I will not teach gun disarms to beginners. Before you train them, when they see the gun, they give up the $40 they are carrying and move along. The worst thing I could do, is give them the confidence to grab for the gun. I would be responsible for him getting shot, because my drills gave him the confidence to try something extremely risky, that got him hurt. I don't know how the legal system would view such a situation... but I know I would feel very responsible.

This is an excellent answer, it encapsulates quite honestly the problems about teaching self defence whether it's specifically gun disarms or women's self defence. We need to be very careful of giving false confidence something I have seen quite often.

 

[dvcochran]

So you don't have a way of knowing if what you are teaching works?

Is there consequence or accountability to any level of your training?

Sure. That is no way identifies effectiveness. For example, how can you realistically say you skill/technique it going to work 100% of the time on any person from 80lbs to 250lbs? Just not practically possible.
Narrow the test criteria and it becomes closer to possible.

You and I have one thing in common. We would argue with a rock sometimes.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Thread locked pending staff review.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

THREAD UNLOCKED

PLEASE KEEP THE THREAD ON TOPIC, AND AVOID POLITICAL TOPICS. If you would like to discuss politics, there are other forums, such as US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Thank you,

William H
@kempodisciple
MartialTalk Moderator

 

[drop bear]

Sure. That is no way identifies effectiveness. For example, how can you realistically say you skill/technique it going to work 100% of the time on any person from 80lbs to 250lbs? Just not practically possible.
Narrow the test criteria and it becomes closer to possible.

You and I have one thing in common. We would argue with a rock sometimes.

I didn't even set a criteria. Is there any accountability?