Self Defense against an MMA trained aggressor

[sgtmac_46]

My point exactly... why are you assuming they would fight you based on rules?

Mostly because human beings are creatures of habit, and continuous repetative training in MMA will result in those techniques coming out under the stress of conflict.....we revert to what is conditioned in conflict. We do not change are game plan in mid-fight very often. If you're a boxer, you'll punch in a street fight, if you're a wrestler you're likely to wrestle. What ever you've programmed through thousands of drills and repetations is what you're going to go to.

 

[sgtmac_46]

In reality good people do not attack good people. I have been training 28 + years and never in that time have I ever had an altercation with a martial artist. The skirmishes I have been involved with were due to beer muscled buffoons or out of control ding dongs who believe that a sucker punch and an attitude wins the day. However, for this scenario it to me is quite simple...do not duel! That falls into the game of an MMA guy in spades. Do what you do and do it sneaky, dirty, underhanded and first...the old adage..hit, hard fast and first. Do not play the hey dude I am a bad *** look at me crappola that has all the makings of a baboon chest puffing contest. Ambush him (ambush is a mind set not a technique)....do what you gotta do and simply drive on.

If you ain't cheating you ain't trying...Go ugly early and WIN!!!!...if it escalates draw you shank and go to work..same/same with a pistola..just be damn sure you have to!

Keep your head, breath and carry on..hooah! Better yet...just don't put yourself there...listen to that gut instinct!

PG Michael B
Bahad Zu'Bu KA'LI Ilustrisimo

www.bahadzubuwest.org

That's key.....hit early, hit often, and seek to end the conflict before he even decides to seriously BEGIN IT!

The difference between the street and the ring is that two guys in a ring know the exact precise moment when the fight begins....the bell rings or the referee says 'Lets get it on!'.......there's no ambivalence. In the street, there is far more room for subterfuge and deception.....THOSE are the key elements that seperate the ring from the street, the more random unpredictability of it all! That's why getting in to a guys OODA loop early and jamming his ability to respond up is key.

SPEED, SURPRISE AND VIOLENCE OF ACTION!

Having a killer instinct is not a requirement for the ring.....it's a competition as well as a fight, and many 'fighters' view themselves as competitors. It's a limited conflict with clearly defined rules. A street fight necessitates killer instinct! You have to be willing to sum up a situation and decide to fire BEFORE the other guy does!

"‘Well, Bill was a pretty good shot, but he could not shoot as quick as half a dozen men we all knew in those days. Nor as straight, either. But Bill was cool, and the men he went up against were rattled, I guess. Bill beat them to it. He made up his mind to kill the other man before the other man had finished thinking, and so Bill would just quietly pull his gun and give it to him. That was all there was to it. It is easy enough to beat the other man if you start first. Bill always shot as he raised his gun. That is, he was never in a hurry about it; he just pulled the gun from his hip and let it go as he was raising it; shoot on the up-raise, you might call it. Most men lifted the gun higher, then threw it down to cock it before firing. Bill cocked it with his thumb, I guess, as it was coming up into line with his man. That’s how he did it. But he was not the quickest man by any means. He was just cool and quiet, and started first. Bill Hickox was not a bad man, as is often pictured. But he was a bad man to tackle. Always cool, kind, and cheerful, almost, about it. And he never killed a man unless that man was trying to kill him." -Buffalo Bill Cody on Wild Bill Hickock

 

[sgtmac_46]

The point of the article was having a few strategies for dealing with being taken to the ground or put into submissions or chokes. It wasn't slamming MMA, just saying that an MMA-trained attacker presents a very serious problem (I guess you could even say the author was paying MMA a "left-handed" compliment).

edit: for anyone interested, the article titled "CONDITION RED! Defending Against Rogue Mixed Martial Artists" by Steve Moses was in the March '08 issue of SWAT Magazine

Exactly! And that was an excellent article!

For dealing with a 'life or death grappling situation'......the small pocket folder is VASTLY underrated! A 3-inch blade can turn being pummelled to death by a WORLD CLASS GRAPPLER in to bleeding OUT a WORLD CLASS GRAPPLER! Simply being remove the folder from the pocket and begin sticking it in to organs in the flank of whatever side of the body you drew the knife on, and repeat as needed!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Rogue MMAers? How do we go rogue then? good grief we're only martial artists like everyone else here!

MMA is like Boxing, it's a collection of techniques and practices which are devoid of any underlying philosophical framework.....which isn't an insult to Boxing or MMA, just pointing out that it's morally neutral in the sense that it's practitioners aren't concerned with instilling any set of moral or ethical values, unlike most traditional martial arts. MMA is a tool, and for good or ill depends on the moral standing of the user.

Since MMA is a popular sport and practice, how to defend oneself against someone trained in it is a legitimate concern.....just as defending oneself against a boxer would be.

 

[Tez3]

As I said I wouldn't assume people will go to the ground with a fight as many people have said many times on here and numerous other places, you don't want to be on the floor in the street,pub or club. Nor do you want to get caught against a wall or a fence, another place that perhaps MMA trained fighters are accustomed to using in a fight that other MA aren't.
I assume the magazine will be following up with articles on rogue TKDers, Whin Chun, Judo etc? LOL! I wouldn't want a fight with any of them either! It just doesn't help the perception of MMA by other martial artists does it? I wouldn't say MMA doesn't instil any moral or ethical values though, good sportsmanship (and what goes with that) is very highly valued and every club and coach I know is at pains to instil that into their fighters. It shows too.
As I said most of our fighters do come from a TMA background as well, TKD being more common than MT, we have several TKD blackbelts who fight, I wouldn't expect high kicks off them in a street fight though. One thing I think that MMAers have is the ability to adapt really quickly to whom they're fighting.

 

[sgtmac_46]

As I said I wouldn't assume people will go to the ground with a fight as many people have said many times on here and numerous other places, you don't want to be on the floor in the street,pub or club. Nor do you want to get caught against a wall or a fence, another place that perhaps MMA trained fighters are accustomed to using in a fight that other MA aren't.
I assume the magazine will be following up with articles on rogue TKDers, Whin Chun, Judo etc? LOL! I wouldn't want a fight with any of them either! It just doesn't help the perception of MMA by other martial artists does it? I wouldn't say MMA doesn't instil any moral or ethical values though, good sportsmanship (and what goes with that) is very highly valued and every club and coach I know is at pains to instil that into their fighters. It shows too.
As I said most of our fighters do come from a TMA background as well, TKD being more common than MT, we have several TKD blackbelts who fight, I wouldn't expect high kicks off them in a street fight though. One thing I think that MMAers have is the ability to adapt really quickly to whom they're fighting.

Don't get all melodramatic......other than shared techniques, there is no underlying 'philosophy' of MMA, unlike TKD and other TMA's......ergo, you don't have a 'philosophy' that is being attacked. It would be equivalent to being upset because we started discussing defenses against boxing......which, in essence, we are discussing defenses against a blend of boxing, wrestling, jui-jitsu and Muay Thai.

And for the record, who needs a defense against rogue TKDers?

What IS 'MMA'? It's a rather broad question........MMA is a buffet of techniques that works in the ring and in the cage where the rules are that punching, kicking and grappling are allowed.....it is NOT a moral system or a philosophical one......and no requirement of any particular moral or ethical standard in order to compete and train. You have your Randy Coutures who you'd likely not run in to in a bar in the first place and certainly wouldn't find any trouble from, and conversely you have your Tank Abbott's who if you run afoul of them while their surly and in their cups might grant you a beating for your trouble.

 

[Tez3]

Don't get all melodramatic......other than shared techniques, there is no underlying 'philosophy' of MMA, unlike TKD and other TMA's......ergo, you don't have a 'philosophy' that is being attacked. It would be equivalent to being upset because we started discussing defenses against boxing......which, in essence, we are discussing defenses against a blend of boxing, wrestling, jui-jitsu and Muay Thai.

And for the record, who needs a defense against rogue TKDers?

What IS 'MMA'? It's a rather broad question........MMA is a buffet of techniques that works in the ring and in the cage where the rules are that punching, kicking and grappling are allowed.....it is NOT a moral system or a philosophical one......and no requirement of any particular moral or ethical standard in order to compete and train. You have your Randy Coutures who you'd likely not run in to in a bar in the first place and certainly wouldn't find any trouble from, and conversely you have your Tank Abbott's who if you run afoul of them while their surly and in their cups might grant you a beating for your trouble.

Hardly melodramatic! more amused I think!
I think MMA in the States as others have said is a different animal from MMA in the UK. Here boxing is thought to have moral value which is why it's called the sport of gentlemen.
MMA is more than just MT, BJJ and wrestling, over here we train Aikido, Karate, TKD, Judo (more than wrestling) and even Krav Maga for MMA.
I just checked our rules for fighting and yes there is a requirement for good sportsmanship and courtesy , points can be deducted even disqualification can follow is these rules are broken.

Fouls:

No elbows to head of a grounded opponent.
Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow even to the body.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Spitting at an opponent.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
Holding the ropes or the fence.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition. ​

​

 

[sgtmac_46]

Hardly melodramatic! more amused I think!
I think MMA in the States as others have said is a different animal from MMA in the UK. Here boxing is thought to have moral value which is why it's called the sport of gentlemen.
MMA is more than just MT, BJJ and wrestling, over here we train Aikido, Karate, TKD, Judo (more than wrestling) and even Krav Maga for MMA.
I just checked our rules for fighting and yes there is a requirement for good sportsmanship and courtesy , points can be deducted even disqualification can follow is these rules are broken.

Fouls:

No elbows to head of a grounded opponent.
Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow even to the body.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Spitting at an opponent.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
Holding the ropes or the fence.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition. ​

That's merely behavior in the ring.....there is no requirement for behavior outside the ring, much like boxing.....you can just have gotten out of prison for rape and return to the fight circuit. Not so other TMA's and even other sports, which make attempt to ensure that those representing it aren't outlaws.

That's not an attack of MMA, merely pointing out that it's not a moral of philosophical system, but merely a term for a type of competition and the techniques used in that competition.

 

[Tez3]

Oh er! I expected that list to come out down one side not flaunt itself down the middle! :dramaqueen:

 

[sgtmac_46]

Oh er! I expected that list to come out down one side not flaunt itself down the middle! :dramaqueen:

I think it looked more impressive the way it turned out. I bet you couldn't make it do that again though if you wanted to!

But MMAer's like boxers are Gladiators.....and you can't expect men who seek to pummel other men for a living to ALWAYS be good moral men, kind to small and animals and children. Surprisingly in MMA that's been the rule more often than not, but plenty of exceptions exist.

 

[Tez3]

That's merely behavior in the ring.....there is no requirement for behavior outside the ring, much like boxing.....you can just have gotten out of prison and return to the fight circuit.

TO be honest that's unlikely here, we are very small inthe UK and promoters know all the fighters and will chose not to have someone fight on our shows if they've been to prison etc. (The only one we know of that has been alledegly involved in criminal activities is now in Morroco and won't be coming back anytime soon.) I expect though that will change as/if MMA gets bigger here. We'll lose control and probably the government will step in.
We are smaller than nearly all other MA here, we only have 10 women who actively fight and perhaps only a couple hundred male fighters in all. All the promoters know each other and help each other out, we simply don't have the sheer weight of numbers that the States has so we retain the atmosphere and training of TMAs also in that goodsportmanship is instilled in young fighters.

 

[Tez3]

I think it looked more impressive the way it turned out. I bet you couldn't make it do that again though if you wanted to!

But MMAer's like boxers are Gladiators.....and you can't expect men who seek to pummel other men for a living to ALWAYS be good moral men, kind to small and animals and children. Surprisingly in MMA that's been the rule more often than not, but plenty of exceptions exist.

You're right I couldn't!

As I said though MMA is very small here and to be honest there's maybe three fighters I can think of that make a living out of MMA ( In America usually ) and a precarious one at that, there's no money in MMA here, the most a top fighter here will get is $3000 a fight, Ian Freeman I think has been paid the most at $20,000 but that was once. our fighters here although they fight pro rules are amateur fighters. fighters who go under semi pro and amateur rules don't get paid , they may get expenses. fighters here also don't fight regularly, it can be months between fights.
This means all fighters have other jobs which tends to preclude them from brawling in the street as they can't afford to lose their jobs/careers and living. keeps them in at night lol!

 

[sgtmac_46]

You're right I couldn't!

As I said though MMA is very small here and to be honest there's maybe three fighters I can think of that make a living out of MMA ( In America usually ) and a precarious one at that, there's no money in MMA here, the most a top fighter here will get is $3000 a fight, Ian Freeman I think has been paid the most at $20,000 but that was once. our fighters here although they fight pro rules are amateur fighters. fighters who go under semi pro and amateur rules don't get paid , they may get expenses. fighters here also don't fight regularly, it can be months between fights.
This means all fighters have other jobs which tends to preclude them from brawling in the street as they can't afford to lose their jobs/careers and living. keeps them in at night lol!

Most professional MMA'ers aren't going to cause problems, but amature MMA here in the states is a HUGE growing phenomenon! Most of what folks will face on the street isn't a professional MMAer, but an amature who's learned a little bit here and there.

 

[Tez3]

We have something here called Cagefighter Syndrome! this is where a young man (invariable a man lol) tells people he's a cagefighter and has fought in the cage, when questioned they usually can't remember where or when or even who they train with. We even had one person telling us they'd fought on our show without realising who we were.
Our problem here is not rogue MMAers or any sort of martial artist, it's alcohol fueled violence on the streets. This is hard to combat both from a policing point of view - takes huge manpower to control and from a personal point of view because you don't know where it's going to come from or how many are going to be involved. it's rarely a one on one and it's seemingly random.

 

[sgtmac_46]

We have something here called Cagefighter Syndrome! this is where a young man (invariable a man lol) tells people he's a cagefighter and has fought in the cage, when questioned they usually can't remember where or when or even who they train with. We even had one person telling us they'd fought on our show without realising who we were.
Our problem here is not rogue MMAers or any sort of martial artist, it's alcohol fueled violence on the streets. This is hard to combat both from a policing point of view - takes huge manpower to control and from a personal point of view because you don't know where it's going to come from or how many are going to be involved. it's rarely a one on one and it's seemingly random.

Yeah, Cagefighter Syndrome is sweeping the planet......pretty soon we'll have as many cage fighters in every bar as Delta Force, Green Berets and Seals! :drinky:

 

[Tez3]

Yeah, Cagefighter Syndrome is sweeping the planet......pretty soon we'll have as many cage fighters in every bar as Delta Force, Green Berets and Seals! :drinky:

http://www.cagewarriors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25278

Very funny, PM for translations if anyone gets stuck.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yeah, Cagefighter Syndrome is sweeping the planet......pretty soon we'll have as many cage fighters in every bar as Delta Force, Green Berets and Seals! :drinky:

Very true!

 

[MJS]

Wow!! This thread grew pretty quick! Instead of quoting every post, I'll just give an overall reply.

How do we defend against a MMAist? IMHO, if your goal for training in the arts is SD, then you should be training as real as possible and do your best to be as well rounded as possible. So that means, punching, kicking, weapons, ground work, scenario drills, etc. If we stop and think about it, we don't know if anyone has training until the fight starts. Our training doesnt turn us into supermen, but it should give us an advantage.

The question came up of what would make us think that a MMA person couldn't do the 'dirty tricks' just like someone else. The reply to that was what I usually say...sure they could do them, but....IMO, we tend to fall back on how we are trained. If you know that going for the eyes or groin is a no-no in the ring, are you going to be thinking the same outside the ring? Very possible. Kinda like when we do weapon disarms in class. When I disarm, I drop or toss the weapon away. I don't hand it back to my partner, I make them get it. Why? Because if the time comes when I do this for real, I don't want to have it drilled into my head to hand the weapon back. Subconsciously we just may do that.

Thinking back to the Fight Quest show where Doug and Jimmy were doing Krav Maga. Remember when Doug was running between those trees and the others would come out to attack him? What did he usually do? Try to take them down. Avivit (sp) the female inst. he was working with, then went on a rant about using things that were on the ground, ie: sand in the eyes, a stick, etc. Hey, if someone is hell bent on causing me serious harm, and I can pick up some dirt and throw it at them, a rock and hit them, I'm gonna do it. I'll deal with the consequences later, but my life is more important than worrying whether or not someone will look bad upon be using a rock.

Hey, I'm not knocking MMA. I've learned some great stuff them, and IMO, everyone benefits.

Mike

 

[Deaf Smith]

Guys, I'm not a cage fighter! Why I was a 15 year old CIA assassian in the Vietnam Phoenix program!

You do believe that, right?

There will always be wannabies. People who want others to feel they are unique. It's been said that the most common trait of people is to be uncommon.

So expect alot of this to happen. Just like there are those who wear the U.S. military uniform but never have been in the military.

Deaf

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Well it's real simple.

It matters not what they are trained in, and you won't be able to tell until you lock up with/cross fists with/exchange fire with them/hit each other with pies/whatever.

The school's the school, the ring's the ring, the street's the street, and never must the three be confused.

If escape/deescalation isn't possible, do unto them before they do unto you.

Stop thinking Frank Shamrock, or Frank Trigg, and start thinking Frank CASTLE.