A question about fighting Vs knives

[frank raud]

I have seen a video where an armed man was keeping the right distance with the left arm from the victim having ready the knife in the right hand wide on his side. Now if instead of trying to reach for the arm with the blade wouldn't have been easier grabbing the other arm attempting for a joint blockage?
Other times I have seen people trying to stab with a wide swing. Instead of stepping back or try to catch the arm wouldn't be easier to step forward?.

If you grab the opposing hand, and try to apply a joint lock, what is stopping the knife wielder from stabbing you while you concentrate on his other arm? I beleive it would be difficult to concentrate o locking someone up as they are stabbing you in your exposed kidneys.

If you step forward, it is not diificult to change the angle or direction of the knife to stab or slash you, Stepping out may not be perfect, but it gets you out of the arc of the knife, hopefully giving you time and opportunity to jam the arm on the backswing, just as an example of something that may work. Until you can make your move to control the knife wielding arm, it is better to stay away from the knife's arc.

 

[charyuop]

What I meant with joint lock was not simply blocking the arm. If you grab his and and apply the other hand on the bone of the elbow, of course it depends on how fast you are, (which in that position is external) and give a good pressure it's possible to put the opponent on his knees and if you keep pressing going lower the pressure will go on his shoulder. A friend of mine who does martial art once tried on me a wrist lock and he put me on my knees in 2 seconds, I for sure had no way to try punching with the other hand (or stabbing him in case I had a knife) unless I wouldn't care if my wrist was gonna break.
Someone told me once (don't know if it's true) that to break an elbow or dislocate a shoulder it require no more than a 8-10 pounds pressure.
Mine was only an idea (and for sure wouldn't work hee hee), but this way I wouldn't be the one getting out of the knife's arc, but I would put the opponent in position not to reach me.

And morever how many times you will find someone with a knife that offers you the other arm to grab? (hee hee). That was just an example.

 

[charyuop]

Sorry, I understood only now what you meant when you said arc of the knife. I was thinking according to the movement that I know of Tai Chi, where when I grab the wrist and place the on the elbow comes natural to me to do a kind of roll back which will bring me closer the shoulder without the knife. Something like this (K=attacker with knife, M=me). Of course it also depends on the distance, if the hand is too far away (I guess someone calls it bubble of energy? I prefere strong area) pulling a lock is kinda impossible...if the arm is tense you might try a little push and when he applies strangth contrary to yours to keep balance pull him in closer for the lock, but here we step into Sci-Fi world hee hee.

Before grabbing with knife in right hand K
....................................................M (facing)

After grabbing wrist-elbow K
......................................M (with his shoulder "unarmed" lowered by the lock)
And as I say, in these cases if you can break something, do it. Carry moves through to the end, no guilty feelings.

But of course I never tried, not even in training....so as they say don't do at home I don't wanna be responsible.

 

[MJS]

What I meant with joint lock was not simply blocking the arm. If you grab his and and apply the other hand on the bone of the elbow, of course it depends on how fast you are, (which in that position is external) and give a good pressure it's possible to put the opponent on his knees and if you keep pressing going lower the pressure will go on his shoulder. A friend of mine who does martial art once tried on me a wrist lock and he put me on my knees in 2 seconds, I for sure had no way to try punching with the other hand (or stabbing him in case I had a knife) unless I wouldn't care if my wrist was gonna break.
Someone told me once (don't know if it's true) that to break an elbow or dislocate a shoulder it require no more than a 8-10 pounds pressure.
Mine was only an idea (and for sure wouldn't work hee hee), but this way I wouldn't be the one getting out of the knife's arc, but I would put the opponent in position not to reach me.

And morever how many times you will find someone with a knife that offers you the other arm to grab? (hee hee). That was just an example.

Unless you were standing in a static position, or unless your friend was extremely fast, it is highly unlikely that what you describe above will happen. No disrespect intended, just trying to bring a bit of reality into the picture.

As some have stated prior, gaining control of the weapon hand should be on the top of the list.

Mike

 

[charyuop]

No disrespect seen there hee hee, this is just a talk. As I said mine is pure theory and I started this thread purely to ask info about what to do in case (God willing that will never happen) I have to face such a situation.
I already know what will happen if it happens to me: I will get paralyzed by fear and end up like those little cushion tailors use to hold their pins...ouch.

No, I was not standing there saying bend my wrist hee hee. We were jocking and I was facing him. At a certain point I thought he didn't have good balance and wanted to show off. I grabbed his wrist to pull him, but he had better balance than I thought. He covered my hand with his free hand and turning the hand I was holding got me on my knees (very painful). Stupid me...it was one of the first lock that I had learnt when I started Tai Chi (if you know Yang Style or see a pitcure somewhere look at the movement called "needle at see bottom" and that might help you understand what lock I refer to) and I ended up caught in it hahahahaha.

 

[Phadrus00]

Charyuop,

It is an interesting question you pose. I am familiar with the technique you are referring too and allow me to further quialify my response by saying that when I am not teaching/training FMA I am studying/training in Tai Chi so I have a particular interest how these two arts complement one another or differ radically in approach.

While attacking the free hand of a weapon wielding opponent can allow one to capitalize on interesting oppotuntities such as a joint lock or a nerve strike, it suffers, IMHO, a fatal flaw which is that it ignores the larger issue of Arms Escalation. Allow me to explain.

If I am fighting someone without weapons then we are one equal footing. I can counter his kicks and punches with kicks and punches of my own. Our weapons, all things being equal, deal the same relative damage to one another. I therefor can apply techniques that allow me to risk some damage (from a punch say) in order to position myself well or to capture an opportune target like a free hand to apply equivalent or incrementally more damage. The winner of the fight will be the person that cumulatively applies more damage or compromises the other person so much that they cannot defend themself.

Now this SAME logic applies if I am fighting someone where we BOTH have weapons. I deal damage, they deal damage and the winner is the one that deals the Larger amount of cumulative damage OR compromises the oppoenet to such an extent that they cannot defned themselves anymore. Of course with Weapons this point is typically reached much faster as a weapon is really a Force Multiplier. And yes I am blatently ignoring the more complex issues around different weapons with different ranges (gun vs. Knife, stick vs. knife, etc.) but indulge me a moment if you will.

Now let's look at the issue of an asymmetric conflict, one in which I am Unarmed and the opponent is Armed. The issue here is that my opponent has a Force Multiplier (the knife) and I do not. I cannot simply be as good or marginally better as he is. I have to be better than him to the scale of the multiplier of the weapon. In the case of the knife, the multiplier is very large, perhaps an order of magnitude. So if you simply attmpt to attack a free hand and ignore the weapon you have to be 10 times as powerful and fast as he is in order to overcome the advantage that the knife gives him. You may be able to bring him to his knees in pain but he can still cut your leg and make you bleed out from down there. He doesn't need power or foundation or good technique, he need to drag the blade across an artery and wait the few seconds for you to become unconscious.

When you are faced with a weapon and you have none, you have to deal with that weapon as the first priority or you will be subjected to the Multiplied Force of that weapon. At the very least you have to neutrlize your opponents ability to use the weapon (a lock on the wrist of the weapon arm0 or you have to retailiate with something more severe (block the knife attack and jab the eyes/throat) in order to give you an opportunity to remove the weapon from play.

Now I have been very fortunate in my life an NEVER had to face an Armed opponent in real life, but my Arnis instructor was an RCMP officer and has on several occasions. He lived to tell about it by focussing on that weapon hand and taking that out of play as fast as possible so I consider it very solid advice.

Good Luck with your training!

Regards,
Rob

No disrespect seen there hee hee, this is just a talk. As I said mine is pure theory and I started this thread purely to ask info about what to do in case (God willing that will never happen) I have to face such a situation.
I already know what will happen if it happens to me: I will get paralyzed by fear and end up like those little cushion tailors use to hold their pins...ouch.

No, I was not standing there saying bend my wrist hee hee. We were jocking and I was facing him. At a certain point I thought he didn't have good balance and wanted to show off. I grabbed his wrist to pull him, but he had better balance than I thought. He covered my hand with his free hand and turning the hand I was holding got me on my knees (very painful). Stupid me...it was one of the first lock that I had learnt when I started Tai Chi (if you know Yang Style or see a pitcure somewhere look at the movement called "needle at see bottom" and that might help you understand what lock I refer to) and I ended up caught in it hahahahaha.

 

[charyuop]

That makes planty of sense.

 

[pstarr]

Some advice (assuming that you can't run away for one reason or another):

• Pick up the nearest thing you can use as a weapon and beat the s.o.b. to death with it. This includes stools, chairs, ashtrays, whatever.
• If you wear a belt with a heavy buckle, quickly slip it off and you have an effective flail. If you don't wear such a belt, get one.
• If you have change in your pocket, toss it into the enemy's eyes just as he attacks. A lit cigarette also serves.
• Stay away from the knife so that the aggressor has to make a fairly large, committed movement in order to strike you with his weapon.

Some guidelines for knife defense techniques/movement:

1. Get out of the line of fire. When the enemy attacks, don't stay in front
of him and try to employ classical blocking maneuvers.

2. Acquire control of the weapon (by controlling the enemy's hand/arm)
and maintain said control until his heart stops beating.

3. Scream! And...

4. Kill him as quickly as possible.


Now for some "don'ts":

A. Never, ever try to employ joint techniques against an armed assailant.
He will severely wound you and may well kill you. The weapon cannot
hurt you without his help. A knife laying on a table is perfectly
harmless until some scumbag picks it up. Eliminate HIM and you
eliminate the problem.

B. Never, ever try to grapple with an armed aggressor or execute nifty-
looking throws. He will probably kill you. After all, you're grappling and
he's got a weapon. See (A) above.

 

[charyuop]

For me running is out of possibilities. I have never been a fast runner and run out of breath quickly, thus I would have to fight with heavy breath

I have a last question. Once seen the fight is inevitable, is it wiser attacking the arm with the knife trying to use the surprise (I think the attacker wouldn't expect someone unarmed to attack first), but this way having the risk of being less ready to avoid a counter attack...or waiting for the person with the knife to attack first so that you could see what he does and react (tho this way if the attacker is faster has 3 advantages: weapon, knows what he is up to and quickness).

I know these are only general guidelines, because every fight presents situation different from one another, but having suggestions from people with fight expirience makes me feel somewhat better.

 

[KenpoTex]

Some guidelines for knife defense techniques/movement:

1. Get out of the line of fire. When the enemy attacks, don't stay in front
of him and try to employ classical blocking maneuvers.

2. Acquire control of the weapon (by controlling the enemy's hand/arm)
and maintain said control until his heart stops beating.

3. Scream! And...

4. Kill him as quickly as possible.


Now for some "don'ts":

A. Never, ever try to employ joint techniques against an armed assailant.
He will severely wound you and may well kill you. The weapon cannot
hurt you without his help. A knife laying on a table is perfectly
harmless until some scumbag picks it up. Eliminate HIM and you
eliminate the problem.

B. Never, ever try to grapple with an armed aggressor or execute nifty-
looking throws. He will probably kill you. After all, you're grappling and
he's got a weapon. See (A) above.

Well said!

 

[MJS]

For me running is out of possibilities. I have never been a fast runner and run out of breath quickly, thus I would have to fight with heavy breath

I have a last question. Once seen the fight is inevitable, is it wiser attacking the arm with the knife trying to use the surprise (I think the attacker wouldn't expect someone unarmed to attack first), but this way having the risk of being less ready to avoid a counter attack...or waiting for the person with the knife to attack first so that you could see what he does and react (tho this way if the attacker is faster has 3 advantages: weapon, knows what he is up to and quickness).

I know these are only general guidelines, because every fight presents situation different from one another, but having suggestions from people with fight expirience makes me feel somewhat better.

I would have to say that its going to depend on the situation. Its a tough situation either way, because you could potentially be offering a limb for him to attack.

Mike

 

[Phadrus00]

Charyuop,

First of all let me say that "running" away is always the best first option irregardless of your speed. Any chance you have to avoid a potentially lethal encounder is a good one even if you are going to be winded later. It would also behoove you to consider more aerobic conditioning because believe me, if you thought running was tiring, try fighting with someone with your adrenaline pumping because your life is at risk... It will make the cross-country team seem like a bunch of wimps.. *smile*

So on to your question as wether it is better to initiate the attack or react to his attack. I would make the observation that you are assuming the very Best Case Scenario, which is that you will have control and choices in the matter. Although in class we usually train like this the reality is that we often do not. There is not likely going to be a lrage preamble to a fight with words exchanged, the crowd parting, an opportunity for you and your oppoenent to look extremely cool and tough, dramatic music and then a big clash of attacks. It is likely going to happen fast, without a lot of warning and if your oppoenet is willing to use a knife he may hide it until the last second so he can sneak in a dirty shot and kill you quickly.

It's dirty business and you are going to be lucky if you see the knife as the weilder is making his attack. So your training should really stress reacting to that initial attack and training some rapid avoidance foot work and body positioning as well s intercepting the incoming weapon hand.

IF in the "lucky" circumstance you have the opportunity to see the knife before it is being thrust at you, NEVER try and reach out for it to capture. It is SO easy to cut your hands on the blade that it makes initiating a capture like that too risky. I know you are thinking that you could grab the wrist or the forearm but trust me, it is too risky. Your best option is to use one of the wonderful suggestions that pstarr made in his earlier post to distract him and force a reaction from him such as coins to the face or your belt buckle. Using something to extend your reach and act as a surrogate limb like a pipe, a branch, your shoe, your shirt, etc. allows you to engage the blade without risking a cut to your primary weapon. Remeber from my earlier post that you need to deal with the Force Multiplication that the knife introduces and just about ANYTHING is better than nothing.

I cannot stress enough how much a knife changes the game of self-defence tactics. It is a very lethal and scary weapon and I encourage you to check out some DVD's or books on kife tactics and defences. I am very fond of Filipino and Silat approaches to this problem but I suspect that the Krav Maga guys have some great material on this as well.

Best Regards,
Rob

For me running is out of possibilities. I have never been a fast runner and run out of breath quickly, thus I would have to fight with heavy breath

I have a last question. Once seen the fight is inevitable, is it wiser attacking the arm with the knife trying to use the surprise (I think the attacker wouldn't expect someone unarmed to attack first), but this way having the risk of being less ready to avoid a counter attack...or waiting for the person with the knife to attack first so that you could see what he does and react (tho this way if the attacker is faster has 3 advantages: weapon, knows what he is up to and quickness).

I know these are only general guidelines, because every fight presents situation different from one another, but having suggestions from people with fight expirience makes me feel somewhat better.

 

[pstarr]

Don't attack his arm. That won't kill him

Kill the jerk who's holding the knife!

 

[Makalakumu]

Protect your vitals and look for every chance you can to run away. If you can do some damage that makes it easier for you to run away, that is probably the best that you can hope for.