Self defence situatio

[JR 137]

Isn't the only problem.

Shooting a person who pushed you in a fight you started doesn't exactly fit the narrative though.

I thought it was all about protecting your family from ninjas.

I don’t know the case other than the report you linked. As it’s written, it’s pretty obvious how messed up the whole thing is.

But when does the news report the entire story? Especially a news channel that time and time again has a blatantly liberal bias and agenda? That doesn’t mean CNN got it wrong this time; it just means read with caution. No different than if Fox News reported it the opposite way, with or without anyone else reporting on it.

It’s so unfortunate what the news has become around here lately. Not that they ever got it right in the past, but it’s just so far out of control lately.

 

[CB Jones]

Isn't the only problem.

Shooting a person who pushed you in a fight you started doesn't exactly fit the narrative though.

I thought it was all about protecting your family from ninjas.

The shooter did not start the fight....the person who was shot started the fight.

 

[Anarax]

The shooter did not start the fight....the person who was shot started the fight.

Wait. So the person who actually committed assault/battery started the fight? Not the person who was verbally conveying disdain for a non-handicap driver parking in a handicap spot?

You've lost me

 

[CB Jones]

So the person who actually committed assault/battery started the fight?

Exactly

Not the person who was verbally conveying disdain for a non-handicap driver parking in a handicap spot?

Correct.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Isn't the only problem.

Shooting a person who pushed you in a fight you started doesn't exactly fit the narrative though.

I thought it was all about protecting your family from ninjas.

Guns don’t stop ninjas. That’s just silly.

 

[FriedRice]

Yeah protect people from being pushed in an argument about a car space. like in Florida recently.

Florida man could avoid charges after fatal shooting because of "stand your ground" law. - CNN

That's a tough one really, more of an aberration than anything. There will be nutcases, as in this guy who apparently has an unusual record for confronting people over such illegal parking. But such an aberration does not negate the 2nd Amendment. There are multitudes of cases where law abiding citizens have protected themselves and their loved ones from harm to even possible deaths, with firearms. You just don't hear it in the news often b/c it goes against their anti-gun narrative.

While getting shoved like this was clearly a violent attack as the guy was towering over the old guy on the ground and continued moving forward in an aggressive manner, seemingly, to stage another violent attack. He was well within range to soccer kick the head for the KO and/or continue for a coma to even death. To begin with, you can die by such a shove if your head cracks on the cement. Quite a few cases of 1 punch KO's resulting in deaths, which this wasn't a punch, but it's still dangerous.

The Stand Your Ground provision affords citizens who are weak, frail and especially the elderly from having to live in fear from the criminal elements that are all over poor areas. Grandmas won't be as afraid to go outside and buy food. And scumbags would think twice before trying to win arguments with violence when there's a chance that Grandpa is packing heat.

Ever been around places where many people are armed? Most everybody's very polite.

 

[FriedRice]

Isn't the only problem.

Shooting a person who pushed you in a fight you started doesn't exactly fit the narrative though.

I thought it was all about protecting your family from ninjas.

So if some grandpa told your girl that the parking spot she was in, was meant for handicapped people.....and both starts arguing back and forth.....maybe yelling.... then you think that you should have the right to use physical violence to end the discussion?

Personally, I'd love to live in such a world b/c that would be pretty damn fun..... but old grandpa ain't a fighter....and this would mean that the strong, young, and trained would dominate the weak and elderly, at will.

 

[FriedRice]

Yep. Economic freedom is the most useful freedom.

Giving grandma a gun but letting her live in squalor is not really giving her her dignity.

Yea but you live on a giant island, we don't. 300,000,000 people plus another 30,000,000 to 40,000,000 that are illegal and getting lots of free stuff, like free emergency healthcare, to full healthcare, etc.

 

[Anarax]

Exactly



Correct.

Jeez CB, what's next? You telling us not to break into people's houses?

 

[pdg]

There's two ways of looking at this, without further evidence.

One way is the old guy politely told the woman she was inappropriately parked and she reacted by screaming and shouting, which brought her boyfriend into the fray who got violent. The old guy, in genuine fear for his life responded by using his legally carried firearm.

The other way is that the old guy waited for the boyfriend to leave before confronting the woman about her parking (because he doesn't mind shouting at women), her boyfriend wondered why she was taking so long and went to investigate whereupon he discovered a man verbally assaulting her. So he went to her defence, pushing the man away, who then shot him. This family trip to the shop ended with a 5 year old going home without his father.


I can't say which is the actual course of events, but quite honestly the old guy's "history of confronting people over parking" goes against much of what has been said about people who carry - in this case it looks more like that knowing he had a gun he was much more prepared to start an argument.

So if some grandpa told your girl that the parking spot she was in, was meant for handicapped people.....and both starts arguing back and forth.....maybe yelling.... then you think that you should have the right to use physical violence to end the discussion?

It apparently wasn't a discussion though was it?

If someone was having a go at my wife, damn right I'd step in - why would my right to protect my family be less than the rights of "some grandpa" to protect himself?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ever been around places where many people are armed? Most everybody's very polite.

Is that really true, or is it just what we in the South (and Southwest) see?

 

[FriedRice]

There's two ways of looking at this, without further evidence.

I hear what you're saying....it's hard to find just the entire video of the incident w/o commentary from the News Media. YouTube is SHADOW BANNING and censoring a lot, these days. Mainstream News Media will get the top spots whenever you do a search causing the need to weed through pages, even 10+; and even then, you may not get the raw version that's unbiased. Here's the best I've found so far:

One way is the old guy politely told the woman she was inappropriately parked and she reacted by screaming and shouting, which brought her boyfriend into the fray who got violent. The old guy, in genuine fear for his life responded by using his legally carried firearm.

The other way is that the old guy waited for the boyfriend to leave before confronting the woman about her parking (because he doesn't mind shouting at women), her boyfriend wondered why she was taking so long and went to investigate whereupon he discovered a man verbally assaulting her. So he went to her defence, pushing the man away, who then shot him. This family trip to the shop ended with a 5 year old going home without his father.

I can't say which is the actual course of events, but quite honestly the old guy's "history of confronting people over parking" goes against much of what has been said about people who carry - in this case it looks more like that knowing he had a gun he was much more prepared to start an argument.

It apparently wasn't a discussion though was it?

If someone was having a go at my wife, damn right I'd step in - why would my right to protect my family be less than the rights of "some grandpa" to protect himself?

Here are my opinions:

1) Speech, does not physically hurt nor kill anyone. The only speech that's illegal are threats of violence and inciting violence.

2) Grandpa, may be an ***hole, but this lady was definitely one for parking in a handicap space while there were plenty of other spaces available.

3) Grandpa kept a reasonable distance from the car. The woman got out of the car to get in his face. She clearly felt no danger nor fear and clearly wanted to escalate by getting out of her car. The Husband was already approaching from the side, unbeknown to Grandpa.

4) That wasn't protecting his woman, that was a clear attack on Grandpa to end the argument through violence. A surprise attack on a Grandpa by a much bigger, stronger, younger man....can seriously injure or even kill someone if their head cracks open from hitting the cement.

5) Grandpa was in fear for his life....because it was a sudden, suckerpunch type situation. Then the big guy was towering over him, moved forward, reaching into his pockets and pulling up his pants....he could've been reaching for a weapon....AND....the act of pulling up one's pants is a common mental tick, often done when someone's about to fight....because the pants/shorts causes a restrictive feeling. I often do this during sparring or fights. Muay Thai fighters generally do this a lot.

6) The Husband was in range to soccer kick Grandpa's head. 1 kick like this can easily kill a grandpa. Headstomps that may follow, certainly will.

7) Grandpa shot in fear....why? Because he only shot once. Most people who train, hell...just read crap on the internet.....will know to always shoot at least TWICE, center mass, to stop a threat. Even cops would often unload all 17-19 rounds at that range and predicament. Grandpa was very hesitant but obviously in fear. If he was out to execute a Black man that day, he would've at least shot TWICE. He made a split second decision.

8) It's easy to watch the video and see that the Husband backed up when he saw Grandpa reaching for something....and say that the threat was over. But this was about 1 freakin' second, then the single shot was fired. We're all armchair quarterbacking and Grandpa was certainly not a fighter or anything, so he prob. ain't used to physical violence on his old ***. Grandpa could've been the biggest wimp ever, but with a gun. This is one of the main reasons for the Stand Your Ground provision....so that the weak, the elderly, etc. don't need to live in fear.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I hear what you're saying....it's hard to find just the entire video of the incident w/o commentary from the News Media. YouTube is SHADOW BANNING and censoring a lot, these days. Mainstream News Media will get the top spots whenever you do a search causing the need to weed through pages, even 10+; and even then, you may not get the raw version that's unbiased. Here's the best I've found so far:

Here are my opinions:

1) Speech, does not physically hurt nor kill anyone. The only speech that's illegal are threats of violence and inciting violence.

2) Grandpa, may be an ***hole, but this lady was definitely one for parking in a handicap space while there were plenty of other spaces available.

3) Grandpa kept a reasonable distance from the car. The woman got out of the car to get in his face. She clearly felt no danger nor fear and clearly wanted to escalate by getting out of her car. The Husband was already approaching from the side, unbeknown to Grandpa.

4) That wasn't protecting his woman, that was a clear attack on Grandpa to end the argument through violence. A surprise attack on a Grandpa by a much bigger, stronger, younger man....can seriously injure or even kill someone if their head cracks open from hitting the cement.

5) Grandpa was in fear for his life....because it was a sudden, suckerpunch type situation. Then the big guy was towering over him, moved forward, reaching into his pockets and pulling up his pants....he could've been reaching for a weapon....AND....the act of pulling up one's pants is a common mental tick, often done when someone's about to fight....because the pants/shorts causes a restrictive feeling. I often do this during sparring or fights. Muay Thai fighters generally do this a lot.

6) The Husband was in range to soccer kick Grandpa's head. 1 kick like this can easily kill a grandpa. Headstomps that may follow, certainly will.

7) Grandpa shot in fear....why? Because he only shot once. Most people who train, hell...just read crap on the internet.....will know to always shoot at least TWICE, center mass, to stop a threat. Even cops would often unload all 17-19 rounds at that range and predicament. Grandpa was very hesitant but obviously in fear. If he was out to execute a Black man that day, he would've at least shot TWICE. He made a split second decision.

8) It's easy to watch the video and see that the Husband backed up when he saw Grandpa reaching for something....and say that the threat was over. But this was about 1 freakin' second, then the single shot was fired. We're all armchair quarterbacking and Grandpa was certainly not a fighter or anything, so he prob. ain't used to physical violence on his old ***. Grandpa could've been the biggest wimp ever, but with a gun. This is one of the main reasons for the Stand Your Ground provision....so that the weak, the elderly, etc. don't need to live in fear.

Bad choices - very bad - on both sides. The big guy was out of line shoving the old man, especially with that kind of force. The old guy might have been justified to draw, but I doubt even that - the big dude shoved him and never stepped toward him after that.

 

[JR 137]

Bad choices - very bad - on both sides. The big guy was out of line shoving the old man, especially with that kind of force. The old guy might have been justified to draw, but I doubt even that - the big dude shoved him and never stepped toward him after that.

I watched the video. What we can’t ascertain from it is what was actually said between all 3 parties. Did the guy who got shot say anything before or after he pushed the old man? Did the old man say anything to him? Did the old man verbally threaten the woman saying he had a gun or anything else along those lines?

While the verbal exchanges may seem inconsequential, they might’ve better explained why it came to this. Probably not, it you never know.

The whole situation is a huge mess. So many failures at so many levels. My heart goes out to the kid. He’ll never unsee his father getting shot.

 

[Anarax]

the big dude shoved him and never stepped toward him after that.

From 48 to 52 seconds the assaulter took 2 steps towards the man after he shoved him to the ground and continued to walk towards him until he drew his firearm.

 

[pdg]

Yea but you live on a giant island, we don't. 300,000,000 people plus another 30,000,000 to 40,000,000 that are illegal and getting lots of free stuff, like free emergency healthcare, to full healthcare, etc.

You should come to this island then - everybody gets free healthcare.

Me, my wife, my mum, the neighbours, everyone in my village, everyone in town...

Ever been around places where many people are armed? Most everybody's very polite

Ever been around places where just about nobody is armed at all and never has been?

Like say here?

A place where politeness is so rife it's become stereotypical...

I can't help but think there's something false about being polite just because the person you're talking to might be armed.

This is one of the main reasons for the Stand Your Ground provision....so that the weak, the elderly, etc. don't need to live in fear

Oddly, there are very few areas in this entire country where the weak and/or elderly etc. live in fear.

Maybe a few places, like the places where gang violence is common and members are likely to be armed...

 

[dvcochran]

So I had a situation tonight which has shaken me up quite bad and people think this is fake or whatever as I've seen these types of threads been accused of it but whatever.

Tonight I was out for a meal with my kids at a small place nothing flashy just a cafe. But I went to the toilets and nt long after I went in another guy entered he was talkinh to himself and seemed edgy and jumpy. I went to leave and the guy got in front of me and asked if I had a lighter, I politely told him I didn't but he refused to move and got angry yelling and swearing at me saying I was a liar and out to get him, obviously the guy was off his head on drugs or something.

I simply asked him to move out the way then he refused so I tried to push past him and he yelled your going no where and he grabbed hold of my wrist. At that point pure instinct took over. For any kenpo guys reading I basically used the technique gripping talon. It's hard to explain but I twisted my wrist and basically got his fingers in a lock position which made him go up on his toes in pain then dropped a right hammer fist to his groin which buckled him slightly. I used that moment to push him to the side so I could get out. I ran out and told the staff in the cafe and told them to call the police and gave my number to them to give to the police to come talk to me as I had no intention to stick around while that guy was still around so me and my kids left quickly. Later on the police called and I went down and gave a statement. They knew who the guy was and was a known drug user who'd often got violent.
That was the first time I've ever had to use my training for real life and it has shaken me a bit even though I was able to do it successfully. Also I'm surprised I used that particular technique in instinct as its not one I like and honestly not one I train that often. I know other wrist grab defences which I'm way better at but I guess when instinct takes over anything can happen.

Good on ya my friend. Hopefully you process it as a positive with time.

 

[FriedRice]

You should come to this island then - everybody gets free healthcare.

Me, my wife, my mum, the neighbours, everyone in my village, everyone in town...

What island would that be? And the point was, the USA is vastly greater than the other guy's giant island of Australia = we have a lot more $$$$ problems if we were to give everyone free $$$ to get out of poverty.

Ever been around places where just about nobody is armed at all and never has been?

Like say here?

A place where politeness is so rife it's become stereotypical...

I can't help but think there's something false about being polite just because the person you're talking to might be armed.

No, I meant like at a gun range. But you don't have to be polite if you didn't want to.

Oddly, there are very few areas in this entire country where the weak and/or elderly etc. live in fear.

Maybe a few places, like the places where gang violence is common and members are likely to be armed...

Well yeah, that's where the Stand Your Ground law is most helpful to people who are weak and elderly living in bad areas. Why do you think that there are many people packing heat in the 'hoods of Detroit?

But if people want to conceal carry in rich neighborhoods, then that should be their right also.

 

[FriedRice]

I watched the video. What we can’t ascertain from it is what was actually said between all 3 parties. Did the guy who got shot say anything before or after he pushed the old man? Did the old man say anything to him? Did the old man verbally threaten the woman saying he had a gun or anything else along those lines?

While the verbal exchanges may seem inconsequential, they might’ve better explained why it came to this. Probably not, it you never know.

It didn't seem like he even had much time to hear what was being said or yelled, back and forth between Grandpa and his wife. He just walked out of the store and saw his wife get out of the car to get in that guy's face.....so she was def. not afraid of Grandpa. She said he was trying to protect her, which is probably BS. Grandpa was clearly keeping distance from the car while they were arguing.

He used physical violence (by surprise) to impose his will onto someone. It's like if you argue with people on this forum but can't come to an agreement, so you seek them out in person, to punch their lights out. Stand Your Ground would afford the victim to shoot and not have to cower in fear, teaching other bullies the essence of this law.

The whole situation is a huge mess. So many failures at so many levels. My heart goes out to the kid. He’ll never unsee his father getting shot.

Yeah, that's very sad all around. Grandpa may have been a busy body and a complete AH, but this should not detract from the fact that this law protects many, many more people, esp. of poor areas, than causing these rare cases such as this type of questionable shooting. Otherwise, this could be any of us when we're old, frail and can't do ****.

 

[pdg]

What island would that be? And the point was, the USA is vastly greater than the other guy's giant island of Australia = we have a lot more $$$$ problems if we were to give everyone free $$$ to get out of poverty.

The UK, so you'll obviously say it's not comparable. Only it is, as is Australia. It is because the per capita amount is pretty much the same, it's only the total that's different.

And you didn't say getting out of poverty, you said healthcare. We still have poor people.

Before the NHS was introduced we had much the same system in place as you do now - that being the people who could afford to pay a doctor got treatment, anyone else was pretty much left to get on with it or die.

Not really an aspirational model.

Why do you think that there are many people packing heat in the 'hoods of Detroit?

Simple.

Because someone/everyone else likely is as well.