Seishin teki kyoyo

[Don Roley]

I absolutely agree. Of course he would hold back some special information for his special shihan. The rest of us get the base course.

How can you be so sure of that? I think it is not too much to say that I have at least ten times your knowledge and experience in ninjutsu. And yet I would hesitate to say something like that with the same level of certainty you have.

Have you ever heard of the Japanese idea of the students stealing the lessons from the teacher? The teacher does not do a lot of detailed explination, the students are expected to view what he does and pick up the details themselves. So if we are talking about how to live you life, maybe we should be taking a look at how Hatsumi lives his life.

Also, take into account the subject matter and maybe you might think that the idea of not laying things out too clearly is very valid in this case. As much as I love the Bujinkan and the obstacles I have overcome to train here in Japan, if anyone started trying to dictate how to think to me I would leave so fast there would be a cartoon- like whole in the shape of me on the dojo wall.

As for mythology and such, how many people do you think could handle it? If (as a hypothetical example) someone were to share with you lessons they learned about the importance of Koumokuten in one of the arts, do you have the background to tell just what he/she is? Do you expect Hatsumi to spoon feed you things like this from zero?

FYI, I have had talks about Japanese religion and the influence it has had on the arts with Japanese teachers. I think they told me what they did because I had the background in terms of history, language and religion. One of them told me I should not talk too much about things like this because it is easy for those who do not have the background I do to go spinning off in strange directions.

And again, if you are looking for ways on philosophy of life, I think you should be looking at the way Hatsumi lives and what he says rather than expect a series of textbook- like lessons.

 

[Kizaru]

FYI, I have had talks about Japanese religion and the influence it has had on the arts with Japanese teachers. I think they told me what they did because I had the background in terms of history, language and religion. One of them told me I should not talk too much about things like this because it is easy for those who do not have the background I do to go spinning off in strange directions...

I'll go on the record as saying I've had the same experience.

The reason above is probably the reason why we don't see a lot of "Seishin Teki Kyoyo" posted on the internet or thrown about like confetti in Times Square on New Year's...

 

[Senin]

Hi Don,
I heartily agree. Well, actually you seem to agree with me. Soke is teaching what he thinks the student should learn--- based on his judgment. Obviously he is teaching his shihan different things than he is teaching beginners. Hence, things are held back until he feels it is the appropriate time with the appropriate individual.

And, let's be honest, the reason why we don't see alot of "Seishin Teki Kyoyo" being posted around here is because a lot of people don't know what it is.

 

[Don Roley]

Obviously he is teaching his shihan different things than he is teaching beginners.

That is not obvious to me. How can you say things with such certainty? I know that some people I know with more experience than me have not had the discussions I have and think it is because they did not have the background I do in that area. I can't say much else with the certaintly that you have.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The one thing I'll agree with Senin about is that I've personally seen (as well as heard of) instances when the shihan will adjust their choice of teaching material based on the needs and preferences of the people present at that particular time. One of my best memories from my Japan trip was the one time when I saw many people concentrating on setting up a lot of fancy sword disarms, and Hatsumi called up Shiraishi to demonstrate a technique. Initially, Soke made a one-handed downwards cut at Shiraishi, who grabbed the attacking arm with both of his hands from below - upon which Soke promptly switched over his sword to his left hand and smacked Shiraishi in the head.

That was just one of many things I've experienced in recent years that have made me suspect that we Westerners tend to complicate matters for no good reason. However, Senin seems to be unaware of the fact that people with judan and kyu grades alike train together in Honbu at the same time these days.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

.........that people with judan and kyu grades alike train together in Honbu at the same time these days.

As a group we have always done this, but there have been those that have bashed me for doing so, saying that kyu grades shouldnt see what dan grades are doing. I think it makes it easier for all of us to learn, and for some, helps them to see where they are going. Thanks for bringing this to light.

 

[Kizaru]

Hi Don,
I heartily agree. Well, actually you seem to agree with me.

Excuse me. I think you are missing what Don Roley is saying.

Obviously he is teaching his shihan different things than he is teaching beginners...

Don Roley is not a shihan. Neither am I.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

but there have been those that have bashed me for doing so, saying that kyu grades shouldnt see what dan grades are doing.

Sounds a bit Gestapo-like to me...

 

[Mountain Kusa]

Sounds a bit Gestapo-like to me...

It is rampant in some of the geographical areas. It almost seems like there are those that care more about money then their students actualy learning something that can help them live. I just do the best I can do for those I train with, which in turns helps me.

 

[Don Roley]

It almost seems like there are those that care more about money then their students actualy learning something that can help them live.

Weird. In my first post in this thread I was going to talk about in detail how we should take lessons on how to live our lives by looking at how Hatsumi lives his. And one of the things I was going to mention you touched on.

How many people know that until he was old enough to get a pension Hatsumi continued to work at his clinic? He has never had to rely on teaching martial arts to put food on the table.

Now, compare this with all the people making their living off of teaching Bujinkan. They say they do it to benefit others. I feel they may even believe it- or at least want to.

It is not like this is big news if you have been reading things for a long time. In an issue of Tetsuzan, Nagato talks about martial arts businessmen and paints them in a very low light.

For that matter, if you are looking for lessons in Seishin Teki Kyoyo, you should not expect things to be handled much in the dojo. Hatsumi often says that you can't pick up everything he does even from video. But the written word is a great way to convery philosophy. And it is not like there is not a lot of things that has been written by Hatsumi on the subject. If you want to learn about Bujinkan philosophy, you should be reading books and such by the head of the art. I don't think there is a need for a teacher to sit down much and lecture people on the matter. If fact, I would be leery of anyone who tried to tell others how to live their lives.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

I don't think there is a need for a teacher to sit down much and lecture people on the matter. If fact, I would be leery of anyone who tried to tell others how to live their lives.

Yep, I have been told many times over the years that I "must study Mikkyo to understand this art". This is telling me how to live. When I decided that Mikkyo was not for me, I put it down. Then I was able to concentrate on taijutsu and my life. I feel that people have their own lives, and as long as they are not a detriment to society, or are contributing to society, then they are doing okay. I have always felt a good example of how to live is a better than someone brow beating someone till they make it to the point the person figures "what the heck" and gives up. I call it leading horses to water and drowning them. Instead, when the horse gets thirsty enough, it will drink, not because "I and my ego wanted it to", but because it was thirsty and saw the need to do so.

 

[Don Roley]

Yep, I have been told many times over the years that I "must study Mikkyo to understand this art".

Who was the moron who told you that? C'mon, names please!

Of course, I am quite vocal in saying you need to know the circumstances that formed this art to understand why it does the things it does. And part of that was Mikkyo. But to say that you need to practice mikkyo to get good in this art is just wrong.

Let me give an anology. If you study the history of the West and the industrial revolution, you hear about the Protestant work ethic. Some people were in a place at a certain time and because of they way they thought they had huge impact in the way things were left to us. So, do you have to be even a Christian to be a capatalist in today's society? I would think not. So I say you have to have an academic understanding of the various influences on the art and not a religious belief in them.

But there are many people in martial arts that have tried to push their religious views on thier students. Ninjutsu can't be expected to be any different.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

Sorry Don,

not gonna give names on a pulic forum. I could but am not. Even though they may think me their enemy, I feel it is every persons right to persue the religion of their choice, and not have mikkyo forced upon them. I dont allow the teaching of religion in class. When a need arises for the group to observe a moment of silence, everyone understands that they may pray, meditate, be silent, etc, but the one thing we all must do is be respectfull. I feel if a person gets something usefull from a religion, good, if they do not, maybe they will find their enlightment, from another place. Maybe, it can be found in the study of taijutsu.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

Sorry Don,

not gonna give names on a pulic forum. I could but am not.

I need to clarify this as I seem to sound like a prude after I read it this morning. Sorry. I have been reading "Ninpo, wisdom for life." In that book Hatsumi Sensei says that he and Takamatsu considered it rude to talk about others. Its one thing to say it face to face, but another to say things behind someones back. I feel this goes back to "study how he lives". I have had this discussion with the one individual on numerous occasions, however, it is so ingrained into the way he trains, he cant let go of the mikkyo and just train. This person is still one of my closest buyu and we train often together. Even though we have a difference of oppinon, we agree to disagree. Eventually, all things come full circle, even if that circle is like a gyro, moving till it forms a ball, aint it fun.

 

[Don Roley]

Oh, I was just kidding about the names. You're no fun anymore. :wah:

Sulk, sulk, sulk.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

In that book Hatsumi Sensei says that he and Takamatsu considered it rude to talk about others.

A couple of months ago he apparently said that warriors on the battlefield used to carry week-old feces under their fingernails to cause infections when clawing in h2h combat...

 

[Mountain Kusa]

A couple of months ago he apparently said that warriors on the battlefield used to carry week-old feces under their fingernails to cause infections when clawing in h2h combat...

Nasty, but interesting.........but I get the point, that is a book and I am here, and he is there, ........maybe one day I can.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

Kaka under fingernails, nothing new, that happens everytime the toilet paper busts through!!!!!:toilclaw:

 

[Mabus]

Old thread I'm following. Here's what me thinks about the 1st Pillar or Womb Realm:
Hatsumi simply isn't at that level. Yes, he's right. Just do Budo -- but his self-importance is not erased enough for the full trans-mission of Seishin-teki kyoko to take place in him. So there's a bluff, but the bluff is well guided by the Echo of the Mongolian Tiger. So just do Budo... but Budo is always. In traffic, in line, in the waiting room. When no-one is watching. Fudoshin has other forms -- stray a little. Seek the Goddess Ma'at of the Womb Realm and leave the Five Guardian Kings...

Here... we are in uncharterred territory. Don't bother with anything new. Return to the principles. But stray, stray, stray... eat from the forbidden fruit.

What is survival? Survival of what? It's IS NOT an art of Self-Preservation. It is an art of Self-Realisation. For that matter, survival is about yielding to Fudoshin... survival is about Surrender. Survival is about ensuring the emerging of Ma'at: Truth and Justice.

So for that matter; Ninja is OUTLAW. Ninja is designed for troubled times. Ninja emerges when opression is heavy. The Empire is showing a strong hand again... and that is the call. The cry of the Soul. Ninja has yet to tap it's full potential.

P.S. I have no clue what I'm talking about. But it's my feeling. And my feeling is my truth.

 

[Hayseed]

P.S. I have no clue what I'm talking about. But it's my feeling. And my feeling is my truth.

Hey, at least you're honest.

P.S. Isn't "Mabus" the name of the antichrist in Nostradamian lore?