Questions about Go Ju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, and Shorin Ryu?

[twendkata71]

I stand corrected. You are right. He did not have that title because they did not use the title while he was alive, pre WW2. As far as the other point. My research led me to the conclusion that he trained with Itosu, it is on several sites as Itosu being one of his teachers.

 

[TimoS]

My research led me to the conclusion that he trained with Itosu, it is on several sites as Itosu being one of his teachers.

I've also seen that claim, however as far I've understood things, Kyan and Itosu were more collegues than teacher and student. Kyan's karate looks quite different from Itosu's (this based on looking at karate that is in their direct lineages), since Kyan, due to his small stature, emphasized the shikodachi-zenkutsudachi turn, which is a "trademark" of at least Seibukan. Also, Kyan did not teach the Pinan kata, which, as we all know, were a "trademark" of Itosu's karate.

If I remember correctly, one of my friends told me that the most likely origin of the confusion about Itosu being (one of) Kyan's teachers stems from the fact that they both taught karate at the same school.

I've send a question about this to couple of people, I'll be interested to see what they have to say about this

edit: just got a reply back about this. According to Shimabukuros (Zenryo and his son Zenpo, in this case), Joen Nakazato and Choshin Chibana Kyan was not a student of Itosu

 

[Ray B]

Just to clear things up regarding the whole Shorin classification thing.

Shobayashi- Kyan influenced
Kobayashi - Chibana influenced
Matsubayashi - Nagamine influenced
Matsumura Seito - Matsumura influenced

Important to note, Nagamine was a student of Kyan.

Alternative pronuciation of Shobayashi is Sukunaihayashi.
They use the same kanji. This is the translation the Seibukan
likes to use.

 

[Ray B]

According to Mark Bishop's book: "Okinawan Karate, Teachers, Styles
and Secret Techniques", Kyan's teachers were Matsumura Sokon, Chatan
Yara, Oyadomari Kokan, Matsumora Kosaku and Penchin Tokumine.

As TimoS wrote earlier, the shiko dachi is used more frequently
in the Kyan based systems. Just look at the Matsubayashi
and Seibukan kata compared to the Itosu based kata.

Important to note, Shimabukuro's Pinan, Passai Gwa and I believe
Naihanchi, come from Nakama Sensei who was a student of Chibana.

 

[TimoS]

According to Mark Bishop's book: "Okinawan Karate, Teachers, Styles
and Secret Techniques", Kyan's teachers were Matsumura Sokon, Chatan
Yara, Oyadomari Kokan, Matsumora Kosaku and Penchin Tokumine.

Just remembered this interesting image

Important to note, Shimabukuro's Pinan, Passai Gwa and I believe
Naihanchi, come from Nakama Sensei who was a student of Chibana.

Yes and apparently also Jion comes from the same source.

 

[twendkata71]

Just a point of fact. Nagamine Shoshin Hanshi did not just influence the Matsubayashi ryu Shorin ryu, He founded Matsubayashi ryu. He was a short term student of Kyan Chotoku. Nagamine Hanshi taught the Pinan series of kata. He did not learn them from Motobu Choki, Perhaps he learned them from Aragaki Ankichi,though I don't think that Aragaki was a student of Itosu's either. Actually the first person Nagamine trained with was (for a very brief introduction) was Shimabukuro Eizo. If memory serves me right. I used to be a student of Matsubayashi ryu karate do. And that was what I was taught. And perhaps instead of being a student of Itosu's, as you stated they taught at he same place, they exchanged ideas. Just a thought. :asian: Thank you for the valuable information.

 

[chinto]

Just a point of fact. Nagamine Shoshin Hanshi did not just influence the Matsubayashi ryu Shorin ryu, He founded Matsubayashi ryu. He was a short term student of Kyan Chotoku. Nagamine Hanshi taught the Pinan series of kata. He did not learn them from Motobu Choki, Perhaps he learned them from Aragaki Ankichi,though I don't think that Aragaki was a student of Itosu's either. Actually the first person Nagamine trained with was (for a very brief introduction) was Shimabukuro Eizo. If memory serves me right. I used to be a student of Matsubayashi ryu karate do. And that was what I was taught. And perhaps instead of being a student of Itosu's, as you stated they taught at he same place, they exchanged ideas. Just a thought. :asian: Thank you for the valuable information.

Possible, Jion is not in our system of Shobayashi though... so not sure where that one comes from.

 

[Ray B]

Yes and apparently also Jion comes from the same source.

Thanks Timo, I couldn't remember what the last one was.
I was away from my books.

My use of the word influenced can be substituted for founder.
But aren't we all founders of our karate? We follow certain
criteria of the ryuha, but every person spins things differently.
Miyahira, Nakazato, Higa and Nakama were all students of
Chibana, but their karate has a slightly different flavor to it.

Just a thought...
Happy Holidays.

 

[Ray B]

Just a point of fact. Nagamine Shoshin Hanshi did not just influence the Matsubayashi ryu Shorin ryu, He founded Matsubayashi ryu. He was a short term student of Kyan Chotoku. Nagamine Hanshi taught the Pinan series of kata. He did not learn them from Motobu Choki, Perhaps he learned them from Aragaki Ankichi,though I don't think that Aragaki was a student of Itosu's either. Actually the first person Nagamine trained with was (for a very brief introduction) was Shimabukuro Eizo. If memory serves me right. I used to be a student of Matsubayashi ryu karate do. And that was what I was taught. And perhaps instead of being a student of Itosu's, as you stated they taught at he same place, they exchanged ideas. Just a thought. :asian: Thank you for the valuable information.

According to Nagamine's book, "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do",
he lists his teachers as Chojin Kuba, Taro Shimabuku, Ankichi Arakaki,
Kodatsu Iha, (disciple of Matsumura), Chotoku Kyan and Choki Motobu.
He also states that he was a student of Kyan from 1931 to 1935.

The Pinans could have come from Arakaki who was a student of Chibana
or Iha who was teaching karate in the Naha school systems at the time.
I'm thinking both.

Peace.

 

[TimoS]

According to Nagamine's book, "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do",
he lists his teachers as Chojin Kuba, Taro Shimabuku, Ankichi Arakaki,
Kodatsu Iha, (disciple of Matsumura), Chotoku Kyan and Choki Motobu.

Thought that Eizo Shimabukuro sounded wrong for Nagamine's teachers, though it is easy to get confused with all those Shimabukuros in various Shorin branches

 

[twendkata71]

Thank you for the correction. As I went through my copy of Nagamine's "Essence of Okinawan karate". I see that you are correct. It was the elder Shimabukuro Taro, perhaps before he founded Isshin ryu. I also think that you are correct in that Nagamine Hanshi perhaps did learn the pinan kata from Aragaki.
And in response to the other gentleman, Matsubayashi ryu also does not teach Jion as part of the curriculum.

 

[Victor Smith]

Nope,

Right church wrong pew.

There are many Okinawan's using the family name Shimabuku/Shimabukuro which is the same name. Shimabuku being the original Okinawan pronunciation and Shimabukuro being the Japanese pronunciation of the same name.

Isshinryu's founder is Shimabuku Tatsuo not Shimabukuro Taro. They may or may not have been related.

Now I recall reading that Nagamine was a police officer in Japan and know he had previous karate training before meeting Kyan Chotoku. I always assumed the inclusion of the Pinan kata came from that training.

Becuase of his previous training, Kyan did not start him with Seisan kata, it was assumed he didn't need it, and in turn Nagamine's Matsubayshi-ryu does not include Seisan, which all of the other Kyan lineages use. Seisan was the first kata Kyan taught.

As time passed some of the Kyan lineage styles did incorporate the Pinan kata, and all of them did incorporate the Naifanchi kata, which Kyan also did not teach (Dan Smith of the Seibukan is one of the sources on that point).

Okinawan karate always represents the rule each generation of instructors made their own choices.

 

[twendkata71]

boy did I get my names mixed up. Must be working too much.

 

[chinto]

Nope,

Right church wrong pew.

There are many Okinawan's using the family name Shimabuku/Shimabukuro which is the same name. Shimabuku being the original Okinawan pronunciation and Shimabukuro being the Japanese pronunciation of the same name.

Isshinryu's founder is Shimabuku Tatsuo not Shimabukuro Taro. They may or may not have been related.

Now I recall reading that Nagamine was a police officer in Japan and know he had previous karate training before meeting Kyan Chotoku. I always assumed the inclusion of the Pinan kata came from that training.

Becuase of his previous training, Kyan did not start him with Seisan kata, it was assumed he didn't need it, and in turn Nagamine's Matsubayshi-ryu does not include Seisan, which all of the other Kyan lineages use. Seisan was the first kata Kyan taught.

As time passed some of the Kyan lineage styles did incorporate the Pinan kata, and all of them did incorporate the Naifanchi kata, which Kyan also did not teach (Dan Smith of the Seibukan is one of the sources on that point).

Okinawan karate always represents the rule each generation of instructors made their own choices.

Interesting, as Shobayashi Shorin ryu has both Seisan, and Naihanchi Kata...

 

[Henderson]

...there is a goju version of the hakutsuru ( crane ) Kata in goju ryu as well...

Are you refering to Hakutsuru no Mai, a creation of Toguchi Seikichi, or another crane form?

 

[Jin Gang]

I've also seen that claim, however as far I've understood things, Kyan and Itosu were more collegues than teacher and student. Kyan's karate looks quite different from Itosu's (this based on looking at karate that is in their direct lineages), since Kyan, due to his small stature, emphasized the shikodachi-zenkutsudachi turn, which is a "trademark" of at least Seibukan. Also, Kyan did not teach the Pinan kata, which, as we all know, were a "trademark" of Itosu's karate.

If I remember correctly, one of my friends told me that the most likely origin of the confusion about Itosu being (one of) Kyan's teachers stems from the fact that they both taught karate at the same school.

I've send a question about this to couple of people, I'll be interested to see what they have to say about this

edit: just got a reply back about this. According to Shimabukuros (Zenryo and his son Zenpo, in this case), Joen Nakazato and Choshin Chibana Kyan was not a student of Itosu

Not that it is really imporant, but just to put things in perspective. Kyan was 40 years younger than Itosu, and 72 years younger than Matsumura Sokon. He most likely attended Matsumura's school as a teenager, which would have been just a few years before Matsumura died. At this time, Itosu would have been the head instructor there, doing most of the actual teaching, while Matsumura was technically the master. So it would be accurate to say that Kyan was a student of both Matsumura and Itosu at the same time. I think, with 40 years difference in age, it is safe to say that Kyan and Itosu were not colleagues, instructing at the same time and place.
The only kata that Kyan taught which come from the Ituso/Matsumura lineage are seisan and gojushiho. His Passai, Wanshu, Kusanku, and Chinto are all from different teachers, mostly from the tomari area. This is why Kyan's styles look different from the Itosu/Matsumura shorin schools...he didn't spend too much time training under them.

 

[TimoS]

Not that it is really imporant, but just to put things in perspective. Kyan was 40 years younger than Itosu, and 72 years younger than Matsumura Sokon. He most likely attended Matsumura's school as a teenager, which would have been just a few years before Matsumura died. At this time, Itosu would have been the head instructor there, doing most of the actual teaching, while Matsumura was technically the master. So it would be accurate to say that Kyan was a student of both Matsumura and Itosu at the same time. I think, with 40 years difference in age, it is safe to say that Kyan and Itosu were not colleagues, instructing at the same time and place.
The only kata that Kyan taught which come from the Ituso/Matsumura lineage are seisan and gojushiho. His Passai, Wanshu, Kusanku, and Chinto are all from different teachers, mostly from the tomari area. This is why Kyan's styles look different from the Itosu/Matsumura shorin schools...he didn't spend too much time training under them.

Ok, first of all I'll confess I don't know so much about this issue, which is why I forwarded this comment to someone who knows a lot more about the history. (And yes, while it isn't important per se, it is kind of fun to discuss history ) Here are some of his comments into this:

• First and foremost, where is Itosu's Seisan?
• According to Funakoshi, Itosu was mainly a student of Gusukuma of Tomari. Itosu did train under Matsumura also, but the successor of Matsumura was Azato, not Itosu

 

[Jin Gang]

Ok, first of all I'll confess I don't know so much about this issue, which is why I forwarded this comment to someone who knows a lot more about the history. (And yes, while it isn't important per se, it is kind of fun to discuss history ) Here are some of his comments into this:

• First and foremost, where is Itosu's Seisan?
• According to Funakoshi, Itosu was mainly a student of Gusukuma of Tomari. Itosu did train under Matsumura also, but the successor of Matsumura was Azato, not Itosu

I don't know where Itosu's seisan is now. I read that Kyan learned it from him or Matsumura, but other articles contradict that and say it wasn't taught in shuri at all, only tomari and naha. So it might have come from Matsumora or someone else. For sure, Kyan's gojushiho came from Matsumura/Itosu. If Kyan learned his seisan from Matsumura, then it exists today in Isshin ryu and Shobayashi ryu.

I know that Funakoshi had said his primary instructor was Azato. But this doesn't mean he was Matsumura's chief instructor or successor. If he were so prominent, why do no other shuri te lineages mention him? All of them have Itosu in their lineage. I don't know for sure, but I'm going with the common story from all the various shorin ryu schools. No one mentions a Gusukuma of tomari in there, as Itosu's teacher. I have heard of Shinpan Gusukuma, who was one of Itosu's students.
The tomari teachers I've heard of that were contemporary of Matsumura were Teruya Kishin and Uku Giko. Their top students, Matsumora Kosaku and Oyadomari Koken, were around the same age as Itosu. They were the primary teachers of tomari te, Chotoku Kyan's primary source of instruction. Of course, there were lots of karate teachers and practicioners out there that are not well known, and surely may have taught a thing or two to the famous teachers that we've all heard of today. It was a much less formal setting back then, I think, and it seems like it was common for people to learn a little here and a little there from various teachers.
So if Azato was the successor of Matsumura, it was in name only, as Itosu is the one who clearly was teaching most of the students and is credited in all the shorin ryu systems.

 

[TimoS]

If Kyan learned his seisan from Matsumura, then it exists today in Isshin ryu and Shobayashi ryu.

Oh? And why not in Kobayashi ryu, which is the direct line from Itosu?

I know that Funakoshi had said his primary instructor was Azato.

Perhaps I was unclear: I meant that Itosu's main instructor was Gusukuma and Azato's main instructor was Matsumura.

 

[Jin Gang]

Don't know why Kobayashi ryu wouldn't have it. Like I said, there are conflicting sources of information. Some people say Kyan learned it from Matsumura, others from Matsumora or someone else in tomari. Those two names are easy to get mixed up. If Itosu's school doesn't have it, then it probably didn't come from Matsumura.

If someone named Gusukuma was Itosu's primary teacher, none of the shorin ryu lineages aknowledge that. He seems to have been left out of all the charts and stories. It's pretty widely aknowledged that Itosu learned from Matsumura, though, and passed on his style to many students who formed their own schools. Azato was also a student of Matsumura, of the same generation as Itosu. As far as I know, the only student of his that we know of today is Funakoshi. Where did this information come from, about Gusukuma? I'm not saying it isn't true, just that no one mentions him. He seems to have been forgotten by most people. Were any other prominent teachers students of his?