Questions about Go Ju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, and Shorin Ryu?

[TimoS]

This is getting off-topic, so maybe some moderator could split the discussion to a separate thread?

Ok, had a word about this with my source. Here's his response:

First, Gusukuma. Gusukuma (Shiroma) is a common name in okinawa, so there have been other karate instructors than Shinpan (Gusukuma) Shiroma, who was about 20 years junior to Funakoshi. Also Funakoshi is not the only one who considered that Itosu wasn't only Matsumura's student, also Motobu in his book "Watashi no Karate Jutsu" writes: "Itosu was Matsumura's pupil, but because he was slow, Matsumura didn't like Itosu, so Itosu left and started practising with Nagahama". Now we can deduce from these bits of information that Itosu wasn't the #1 student at Matsumura's dojo and it is also likely that he wasn't even present when Kyan practised there.
Itosu's most noted disciple Chosin Chibana, who knew Kyan quite well, doesn't consider Kyan as Itosu's student and neither do Kyan's own pupils Zenryo Shimabukuro and Joen Nakazato. By the way, the only Kyan's pupil who has made the connection between Itosu and Kyan is Matsubayashi ryu founder Shoshin Nagamine. As to where he got the idea, I have no idea. In the styles in Kyan's lineage there aren't any signs of Itosu's karate (e.g. where are the Pinan kata? E.g. Seibukan has added them later, Zenryo Shimabukuro didn't teach them)
Now then, whose student Kyan was then? Kyan sensei wasn't the successor of Matsumura, because he studied under Matsumura only for a few years. Kyan continued his studies in Tomari area with Matsumora, Maeda and Oyadomari. His last teacher was Yara, because he happened to live close-by when Kyan moved to Kadena. People often also forget to mention Kyan's father, Kyan Chofu, who is considered to be Matsumura's student.
It isn't correct to say that the reason Kyan's karate looks different from Itosu's is that Kyan practised in Tomari area. When Kyan was practising at Matsumura's dojo, Itosu's karate didn't, per se, even exist yet. It would be more correct to say that because Kyan practised in Tomari, his karate is different from Matsumura's karate. Also we need to remember that Kyan was quite a unique character as a karateka, why else would his karate have been known by his contempories as "Chan migua ti" ("Small eye Kyan's karate" is an approximate translation)

 

[TimoS]

Where did this information come from, about Gusukuma? I'm not saying it isn't true, just that no one mentions him. He seems to have been forgotten by most people. Were any other prominent teachers students of his?

Ok, here, apparently is the trouble with the old okinawan names. The trouble is that the okinawan names weren't written in kanji, so it is possible that when Funakoshi wrote his book that he didn't know what kanji were used in Gusukuma's name, if any. What we know that this Gusukuma was from Tomari, but we cannot be certain that his name was really Gusukuma and not e.g. Uku Karuya, who was Matsumora's teacher. Also, it wouldn't be unheard of that this "Gusukuma" didn't have many students, so he isn't necessarily a well known instructor.

 

[Ray B]

My lineage is through Chibana. This is what I heard.

There is a Matsumura Seisan. It is different from the
Goju Seisan.

Kyan taught Seisan because it taught the
basic principles of his karate. Itosu created the Pinan
series which teaches the principles of his karate.
It is said that Nagamine did not teach the Seisan kata
because he chose to teach the Pinan. This I got
from my friends in Matsubayashi.

 

[Ray B]

Interesting, as Shobayashi Shorin ryu has both Seisan, and Naihanchi Kata...

This is why Shimabukuro Zempo went to Nakama Sensei (Student of
Chibana and Motobu) for the Pinan and Passai Gwa. Prior to that,
there was no Itosu influence.

 

[Ray B]

Regarding Chibana, Kyan and Motobu. There is evidence that the
three families are descended from the same line so they were some
how related. Motobu originally sent for Chibana to come to Japan
to teach but Chibana declined and Mabuni went in his stead. There
are pictures showing Kyan and Chibana together so they obviously
knew each other.

 

[TimoS]

This is why Shimabukuro Zempo went to Nakama Sensei (Student of
Chibana and Motobu) for the Pinan and Passai Gwa. Prior to that,
there was no Itosu influence.

Kind of. Actually what happened is that Nakama sensei was staying often at the Shimabukuro house when he was working in the area. I think he was married to Shimabukuro Zenryo's sister, or was it the other way round (I can't remember, but I will check tomorrow). Anyway, that's how Shimabukuro Zenpo sensei got taught the Pinan and Passai Gwa, and if remember correctly, also the three Naifanchi kata

 

[TimoS]

Regarding Chibana, Kyan and Motobu. There is evidence that the
three families are descended from the same line so they were some
how related. Motobu originally sent for Chibana to come to Japan
to teach but Chibana declined and Mabuni went in his stead. There
are pictures showing Kyan and Chibana together so they obviously
knew each other.

Yes. After all, Kyan's father was a high official in the court of the king of Okinawa and I think that Chibana was some sort of noble also (again, I could check these tomorrow, since two really knowledgeable persons are here in town for the weekend)

 

[Ray B]

Kind of. Actually what happened is that Nakama sensei was staying often at the Shimabukuro house when he was working in the area. I think he was married to Shimabukuro Zenryo's sister, or was it the other way round (I can't remember, but I will check tomorrow). Anyway, that's how Shimabukuro Zenpo sensei got taught the Pinan and Passai Gwa, and if remember correctly, also the three Naifanchi kata

I don't know the relationship exactly, but I do know that Nakama Sensei
was an old family friend. Please, let me know of your findings.

Thanks Timo San!

 

[TimoS]

I don't know the relationship exactly, but I do know that Nakama Sensei
was an old family friend

Sorry for taking a bit of time replying to this, but I caught a flu during the weekend, so I wasn't able to go and train and ask questions on sunday. Anyway, I checked about the relationship between Zenryo Shimabukuro and Nakama and my source says that if he remembers correctly, their wives were sisters

 

[Skippy]

Hello,


I train, study & teach Uechi Ryu as well as other arts such as Arhat Temple Boxing & Shaolin Kempo. You guys seem friendly enough & down to earth in here compared to all the people that post in the Kempo/Kenpo threads. Not only do they lack any sense of humor but they are at one anothers throats on those threads 247! It's like an endless cat fight on those threads. I sware Kempo/Kenpo must be cursed with all the nonsense going on there.:dalek:

 

[repz]

Hello,


I train, study & teach Uechi Ryu as well as other arts such as Arhat Temple Boxing & Shaolin Kempo. You guys seem friendly enough & down to earth in here compared to all the people that post in the Kempo/Kenpo threads. Not only do they lack any sense of humor but they are at one anothers throats on those threads 247! It's like an endless cat fight on those threads. I sware Kempo/Kenpo must be cursed with all the nonsense going on there.:dalek:

Lol, tell me about it. You make one comment and its either misinterperated, or somehow gives people the right to somehow declare assumptions by adding words you never said. I havent experienced the kenpo section though.

I like to stick to my karate brothers, even though this part of the forum looks quiet. But I am sure a heated argument can pop up anywhere.

 

[TimoS]

But I am sure a heated argument can pop up anywhere.

Things tend not to get too heated around here, but I know what you mean. Just take a look at at least one thread in this subforum (no, I'm not going to say which one)

 

[Guliufa]

This is an excellent article. I read it many years ago and it made me change the way I do and teach Sanchin Kata. I am a Goju Ryu practitioner and have trained under most lineages, except Meibukan.

I also read an interview of Toguchi Sensei which mentioned that Miyagi Sensei's Daughter overheard her Father tell her Mother that he should have practiced the kata of Shuri(paraphrasing)... eluding to Naha Breathing being too hard and damaging(?).

I can't speak to this personally, being very new to Uechi, but I did remember an article that may be of interest form George Mattson's Uechi-ryu.com site titled: Sanchin Breathing: Are you hurting yourself?
http://uechi-ryu.com/breathng.htm

Bill Glasheen (the author) had the following qualifications at the time of the article: A doctorate in biomedical engineering with an emphasis in systems physiology. A dissertation on rhythms in cardiopulmonary systems, which includes quantification of how respiration affects arterial and venous pressure, heart rate, and peripheral vascular flow. Five years of research in the field of cardiology. Renshi rokudan in Uechi Ryu (one "style" of sanchin). Nidan in Shorei Kai Goju Ryu (another "style of sanchin).

Hope this is helpful!

 

[Eubrontes]

Did any of you see the article "Memories of Karate" by Chotoku Kyan, translated by Kiko Assai-Ferreira from teh Ryukyu Shinpo Newapaper, May 1942 - which was in Classical Fighting Arts, volume 15? (the one with Zenpo Shimabukuro on the cover?
In it, Kyan wrote that when he was 15, his father started teaching him karate, and it was very tough training... when he was 16, his dad introduced him to Master Mastumura -who taught him Gojushiho(he wrote "I still do this kata to this day, I never forgot it.") He said he studied with him for two years, then Kyan went to Japan, when he came back, Master Mastumura was dead. After that he writes, "..when i was 26 years old. Upon my return to Okinawa I received instruction in karate from Kosaku Matsumora Sensei in Tomari, Peichin Sensei, etc. Instructors in those days, because of the respect they had for each other, only taught their students their own particular specialty." Great, great article (

 

[TimoS]

I think I read it, can't remember for certain. Anyway, Matsumura taught Kyan also Seisan, which remains the foundation kata in at least Seibukan.

 

[Ray B]

As a side note, I have been thinking about this for some time now. Does anyone else see a similarity to the combination of Shorin's Seisan and Naihanchi vs. Goju's Sanchin and Seiuchin?

 

[Brandon Fisher]

As a side note, I have been thinking about this for some time now. Does anyone else see a similarity to the combination of Shorin's Seisan and Naihanchi vs. Goju's Sanchin and Seiuchin?

Unless you mean them being core kata for I don't see the connection.

 

[TimoS]

Unless you mean them being core kata for I don't see the connection.

Just what I was thinking. Some Shorin styles use Naifanchi as the core, others use Seisan.

 

[Ray B]

I ment the combination of naihanchi and seisan vs. sanchin and seiuchin.

If you look at some of the elements of the two katas from each ryu, they have a alot of similarities. Naihanchi and Seiuchin's side movement. The hand postures are similar too. The hooking hand of seiuchin and the hooking hand of seisan. The grounding of sanchin and naihanchi. Sanchin's forward movement vs. seisan. (I should note Matsumura seisan and not Naha).

I may be reading too much into it but IMO, they share a lot in common and they are core kata for each ryuha. Almost like they are the same lessons pakaged in two different katas.

This is just my uneducated opinion...

 

[dancingalone]

<shrugs> At least in my line, the purposes of the kata are fairly different. For example, Naihanchi is regarded as a fine kata for learning how to create 'short' power while Seiunchin is primarily a body training form with some nice applications as a bonus.