Ryu

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
In fact I have gained a 2nd Dan in Uechi-Ryu and a 4th Dan in Tora Soma Do since the whole thing began.

So just since you have been on Martial Talk, you have been bequeathed a 2nd dan in Uechi-ryu (an art you already have studied up to 8th dan by studying Pangainoon?), and a 4th dan in an art called Tora Soma Do?

Not bad for only a few months of studying...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

So just since you have been on Martial Talk, you have been bequeathed a 2nd dan in Uechi-ryu (an art you already have studied up to 8th dan by studying Pangainoon?), and a 4th dan in an art called Tora Soma Do?

No sir, you have misread the post.

In fact I have gained a 2nd Dan in Uechi-Ryu and a 4th Dan in Tora Soma Do since the whole thing began. They have been around the block for quite some time and are quite satisfied with my credentials, training and teaching. Otherwise they wouldn't have sought me ought

Two new students, one a 2nd Dan and the other a 4th Dan have come to my school for additional training. Not 'I' have two new belt ratings.

I hope this clarifies the misunderstanding. That is why I twice stated 'they' in the above post.

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by KennethKu
I suppose I am now going to get to gether with a couple friends of mine over the weekend, and bestow onto each other the title of Grandmaster and then award each other 9th Dan in Shotokan. When any one ask, we will just tell them that our Shotokan does not give a hoot to the Shotokan HQ in Japan. That our titles are recognized by those we choose to associate with. And if you don't like it, you can come over and kiss our a$$. Sounds like a great idea......

You crack me up! :rofl: :rofl:

That's pricless.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
and a 4th Dan in Tora Soma Do since the whole thing began.

Dare I ask…………..just what is Tora Soma Do?

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Funny thing is that the only people 'offended' are the few here that have no firsthand knowledge of me. Unfair to judge someone over the internet.
:asian:

You have only been judged on what you have claimed.

You and DAC seem to keep thinking that mentioning your skill level and people that know you will somehow justify or qualify your claims to an 8th dan.
It doesn’t.
You have claimed an 8th dan in, for all intents and purposes, an Okinawan style that has said they have no one outside Okinawa qualified to give out 8th dans in their system.

You have also claimed you have no connection to Okinawa or any Asian organization for this rank……which dismisses any connection to China, since last time I checked China was still in Asia.

You could be the best teacher most skilled martial artist in the world and it still wouldn’t justify your claim to an 8th dan in Pangainoon.

I would take your posts a lot more seriously if you had just said:

“Hey, I am some guy in Florida that put a bunch of stuff together that I studied and think it works pretty good”

No mumbojumbo about your great dai soke 8th dan gobble-de-guck.

But instead you made claims to being a Soke without really knowing what the word meant, claimed a 5th dan in what you adamantly claimed was a REAL Okinawan style, which actually doesn’t exist in Okinawa, and claimed an 8th dan in Pangainoon from some mysterious/dubious place and refuse to cough up the person’s name that awarded it to you because someone was "mean" to you on the Internet.

Did you think nobody would notice or question your claims??
Maybe you thought we would take it hook, line and sinker like other people have done.
I think you will find many people that post on this and other BBs have a more “pragmatic” look at MA claims these days.

As for your not telling who you were awarded certain dan grades by because I hurt your feelings………..I wonder what would happen if scientist only let their work by corroborated/scrutinized by their close pals instead of the public at large……….If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.

For the most part I believe a majority of the people on this BBs are honest with their claims of training and rank, therefore, your failure to provide any information about things you claim only hurts your own credibility.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
…….. Someone recognized them for their training and they in turn recognized me when they felt it was due. Nothing wrong with this.

Nothing wrong with it as long as they are "qualified & recognized" to do so and according to the Pangainoon HQ in Okinawa there isn’t anybody outside of the HQ "qualified & recognized" to promote up to 8th dan.

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
…….. For any organization to claim anyone not of their organization is not legitimate is imho very arrogant. They cannot enforce any such policy and in my opinion is merely a ploy to fill their coffers. No one needs organizational affiliation. They may chose it, but there is no requirment.

Let me see……….Let’s pretend I am Mas Oyama, founder of Kyokushin Kai, and someone claims to have gotten high rank in my association from some teacher that is not a member of my organization because that teacher doesn’t “feel the need” to be belong to the HQ and be recognized (read TRAINED) by me, the bloody founder. Now I ask everyone reading this………who do you think is more arrogant? The person claiming dan rank from a style/organization he has no connection with or the HQ that ask people to actually go to the trouble of actually training in his system and earning rank before they lay claim to rank.

If anyone has ever been to my WebPages there is a Trademark License symbol like this one ® next to the name of our style. There is a reason for this. It is merely to keep unscrupulous people from claiming rank or connection to my teacher’s association unless they actually are.
The use of this symbol was not really by choice but came out of necessity because certain people were claiming to have connection to my teacher that didn’t and claim to teach his style, which they also did not and thereby using his name/likeness for their personal gain. . Unfortunately it is a necessity to have this symbol and doesn't reflect well on the morals of the MA world.

Now you may understand a bit more why I am so “anti-bogus in the MA world”, and against unsubstantiated claims to rank and title.

 

[DAC..florida]

This is getting really old, cant we just move on to other topics!

RSK, Yiliquan1 and others.
why cant you just realize that this debate will never give you the names you seek.

MRJ,
no matter what you say or do it will never be good enough, so why even bother.

:goop:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
This is getting really old, cant we just move on to other topics!

RSK, Yiliquan1 and others.
why cant you just realize that this debate will never give you the names you seek.

Who’s looking for names?
At this point in time I know I could careless about names, however, the claims and why you think they are valid are still an issue.

Originally posted by DAC..florida
MRJ,
no matter what you say or do it will never be good enough, so why even bother.

:goop:

That's just it..........he hasn't said anything and he hasn't bothered to support his claims.

All this would have been water under the bridge months ago if David Schultz would have just address the questions asked.
I had forgotten about this whole thing until Schultz mentioned my name in connection with Pangainoon.
So if the blame for starting all this up again rests on anyone's shoulders it's his.

 

[DAC..florida]

The famous question is who tested you for your *th dan in PN.
thats what I was refering to in the above question about NAMES!


I dont think that MRJ claims are real, I know who tested him all of his credentials are available to his students with names of his instructors ect. So I know his claims are real!


I remember the post that sparked it back up, and if Im not mistaken he was giving you credit for your alternative opinion?


You had forgotten this whole thing, now thats a crock if I ever heard one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

DAC -

You need to re-read things I said upthread... I haven't been asking for names of MRJ's teachers. I do support those that are asking, as I think not providing them has caused far more trouble than MRJ ever wanted. I do support those that are asking what organization(s) that governed the art(s) he claims rank in promoted him. For someone that is so against organization membership, he certainly does belong to quite a few! Seems that his arguments against organizational supervision are a bit hypocritical then... Whatever. Anymore, I really don't care. I wouldn't have responded again, but you addressed me directly, so there you go...

I pointed out that my main beef was MRJ acting as if he deserved some special recognition. Whatever. Dead issue. But when he brings up his background, folks are going to smell the blood in the water and start asking again. Simple math, really.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Peace and love :asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

"There were two monks walking silently along one day. They both had taken a vow of silence as well as abstaining from female contact. As they travelled along they came to a stream where a young women was unable to cross due to the strong current. One of the monks silently picked her up and carried her across the river saftely to the other side. The two monks again proceeded on their journey. However, the second monk couldn't believe the first had broken his vow by touching the female. He thought about it and as the hours wiled away he became angrier and angrier. Finally he could no longer contain it and broke his vow of silence by shouting at the first monk 'how could you DO that?' The first monk broke his vow and softly said to his friend, 'I carried her for but a moment out of kindness....you have carried her for several hours now out of a hard heart.'"

Robert, you believe I have to belong to a certain organization to have validity...I do not. You don't find me credable, others do. I've accepted your apology. I've been kind when you were down. I've given you credit for information that even conflicts with what I've offered. I've offered you my hand multiple times in friendship or at least peace. We are not going to agree. And as we are on opposite sides of this planet...it really shouldn't matter whether we agree or not. If you don't want to believe my Dan is valid...then simply don't. I don't need your belief, approval or acceptance. My Dan is valid regardless of what you believe. Since we are not going to agree....and we have already in great detail listed our opinions...how much longer will you continue to go over this matter? That dog just won't hunt.

I will continue to offer my hand in friendship or at least peace. How you respond will be entirely up to you.

Peace :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Martial Arts, for better or worse, are self governing.
Meaning that uncorroborated claims of rank and title are put to the litmus test of the MA world as a whole. This does not mean just a select few people that have close personal contact with each other but a broader range of people.
Which is why people that promote each other always come under fire from the MA world.

Promoting someone outside of your own system is of a similar nature.
It would be extremely presumptuous to issue a rank in Shotokan, Goju etc if I were not qualified to do so.

With the growth of the Internet came the growth of claims to bogus ranks and equally bogu titles and organizations. All of this boils down to is money or ego….or both.
It’s amazing to see so many websites with people claiming ranks over 7th dan and not in just one art but in several. I have seen one individual claim at least 20 ranks over 7th dan in various styles. This looks impressive to the uninitiated that have never trained or trained only a little and have no idea how hard it is to actually earn a single rank that high let alone several.

The saddest part is that it looks as if these over ranked people can fool others into actually believing their deceptions or it’s possible the adage of “birds of a feather flock together” is true.
People that want high rank in a short period of time believe these over ranked people and will support their “sensei” to the bitter end…thereby ensuring quick promotions even more for giving support and demonstrating their loyalty.
This is why you will rarely ever see someone question their over ranked/bogus ranked teacher about such things.
Lately it seems more often than not common sense often goes the way of the Dodo when rank and titles are concerned.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
"There were two monks walking silently along one day. They both had taken a vow of silence as well as abstaining from female contact. As they travelled along they came to a stream where a young women was unable to cross due to the strong current. One of the monks silently picked her up and carried her across the river saftely to the other side. The two monks again proceeded on their journey. However, the second monk couldn't believe the first had broken his vow by touching the female. He thought about it and as the hours wiled away he became angrier and angrier. Finally he could no longer contain it and broke his vow of silence by shouting at the first monk 'how could you DO that?' The first monk broke his vow and softly said to his friend, 'I carried her for but a moment out of kindness....you have carried her for several hours now out of a hard heart.'"

I read that same story in “Zen Comics”.
That’s not how the story goes.
The old monk that carried the girl over the river said to the young monk “I left the girl at the river. Why do you still carry her?”

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Robert, you believe I have to belong to a certain organization to have validity...I do not.

You claim on your website not only to belong to many organizations but to have founded some of them. Therefore your statement sounds a bit hypocritical.
In fact you belong to more than me or most folks on this board.

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
You don't find me credable, others do.

Some folks find the leader of Aum Shinrikyu credible too……….I don’t.

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
My Dan is valid regardless of what you believe.

You ask me to believe in something you won’t let me corroborate.
Why should I believe you?
Because you say so?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Robert, ............I've offered you my hand multiple times in friendship or at least peace. ..............I will continue to offer my hand in friendship or at least peace.

To date you and DAC have insinuated several derogatory things about me personally on this BBs.....I find that form of “friendship” nauseating.

 

[A.R.K.]

I agree with many of the points in your post. I would be leary of anyone with twenty 7th Dans as well. But Robert, please also understand that I am leary of any organization that state you must belong to them and pay them $. Perhaps in some systems there are official governing organizations that can and do dictate policy for anyone in their art. This has not been my experience...but hey, I've been wrong before

I know there are arts out there that have a 'school' BB, a 'system' BB and the master organization's BB and it costs all three times for the recognition. Perhaps this is what you are refering to Robert? I just don't see where paying two or three fees offers more credibility Robert. Would you not agree that it is what you can do and not what you can pay that counts? We all have heard the stories of 'get on the plane a Shodan and walk off a Godan' becuase of money.

I just don't know what to tell you my friend. I started in Uechi Ryu and continued in an off-shoot of Pangainoon. My training covers many years obviously with many different instructors in different parts of the world. We simply did not belong to any organizations then. And to be honest with you I did not even know there was a 'home office' in Okinawa. It never crossed my mind and I don't feel my actual training lacked because of it. Would you not agree that it is the intensity of training that is the priority and not paying dues to an organization half-way across the world?

If you still feel that I need organizational recognition for validity then what I have is merely a 'school' belt that has been awarded to me by those men in the arts far longer than I who felt I was worthy and ready. If in your opinion that is insufficent then indeed in your eyes my belt has no meaning. But look at it from my perspective Robert, I'm the one who has put in the training, the hours, the sweat and the blood. I didn't just wake up one morning and say "I feel like an 8th Dan today, I think I'll start teaching karate". I've trained now for over thirty years. During that time I've taught over a thousand men and women from military to academies to dojo's. I'm not an inexperienced no-rank fuzz butt I've put in my time AND I've used what I know and can relate that experience on to my students to further their studies.

I still feel, and always will that the belt is not what makes the man [or woman] but the training does. The accomplishment means something to me because I'm the one that put in the effort. To me a belt is merely a reflection of your training that others recognize in you and wish to award you with...and no I'm not talking about buddies in a mutual admiration gathering. I'm talking fine, strong instructors throughout the years and in different countries.

If this doesn't meet your standards then as I've said, dismiss them. It's not like I'm harping on it or throwing it in your face my friend. The certificates are truly in one of two boxes in my closet because what I can teach is more important that anything that I could hang on my wall. If no one here wants to think of me with this certification...I'm fine with it. It's not like I'm scamming people for money...I teach some people for free. I don't have a nice dojo, I train hard core people in the side office of an abandoned building donated by the owner. We don't care about wall candy or frills...we just want to train.

My credentials have been verified by intense scrutiny by the organizations that I have chosen to belong to. I didn't join them for the recognition, I joined them for the fellowship, networking opportunities, cross-training opportunities and collaberation of ideas. I was not charged a penny in becoming a member of any of them.

:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Regarding the story, either way it's listed...it still has a valid point.

In regards to organizations, I have listed above my reasons for joining them. In regards to the two I've founded;

International League of Martial Arts Masters is an invitation only fellowship of individuals from around the world. There is no charge for membership. Members network, fellowship, cross-train and collaberate on ideas at no charge.

Gulf Coast Martial Artist Guild is charity based in the USA as well as other countries. Every penny goes towards charity for children in the country the money is raised. It offers rank advancement to those who have no other resourse IF we have a member of sufficient rank to review and promote in the network in the style the student is requesting testing in. Almost for free...and the small amount asked for goes....to charity.

And my credentials have been verified and accepted by GM's all over the world and accepted into their membership....at no charge. This negates any charge that I attended a mutual Dan promotion party or that I payed for my rank.

I've started a fellowshiping organization at no charge.

I've started an organization in which MA's can help children.

OMG...I'm really a greedy monster bend on destroying the martial arts as we know them. No wonder you've hounded me for all these months!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[chufeng]

Ryu...remember, this thread is about ryu...and I'm including everyone...

I happen to think David Lowry is credible...
I do think that I may have misinterpreted his chapter...

Regardless, I'm responsible for starting this thread because of comments made in another thread...at any rate, I don't want to distract from the important issue of warning others that there are those out there who are willing to say anything to take your money...even to the point of self promotion (or some facsimile of same)...

...and I don't want to keep seeing this issue return, over and over, and over and over, and over, and over...etc.

MRJ aka ZDW aka D.S. has a dan ranking in something that used to be UechiRyu but has fractured from that organization and now wants to be Pangainoon...this organization, obviously, is not in any way connected to the Okinawan Pangainoon (the one with roots in China) Organization...so, of course his dan ranking won't be registered in Okinawa...

I'm OK with that...
Please, everyone, let it go...we are not advancing the cause of learning by continuing this circular argument...

Is his rank valid?

I don't care...can he teach? I do care...
Now, after seeing the cost of instruction, I am fairly confident that he's not using his rank to pad his bank account...like some other folks...

Is he authentic Pangainoon?

Only a real Pangainoon person would know...

I am still behind the idea of policing our own ranks...but this dead horse will be glue very soon.......

:asian:
chufeng

 

[chufeng]

After third dan, does it really make any difference?

It's all gravy and seniority at that point...at least in most organizations..........

chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by chufeng
Ryu...remember, this thread is about ryu...and I'm including everyone...

...

I am still behind the idea of policing our own ranks...but this dead horse will be glue very soon.......

:asian:
chufeng

Oh, you're just no fun, you big self-policer you!

So you gonna beat me tomorrow or what?

I can sympathize with RyuShiKan's comments about the "good ol' boy" network in Japan. He has seen quite a bit of it (ask him about the Budo seminar in Tokyo a few months back), and I saw the faintest hints of it during my time there.

I remember the Bujinkan folks being particularly bummed because Hatsumi wasn't recognized by the ryu recognizing folks in Japan because there was so little documentaion on the non-Ninjutsu stuff in Bujinkan training to produce valid authentication of his claims... That was the organization I was speaking of. I have also heard it mentioned that part of the reason that Hatsumi isn't accepted is because he claims to be a ninja... Whatever.

Personally, I think it takes a few generations to have something die out or show its survivability. Look at how many mini-mall dojos spring up teaching new and improved martial arts, but die out after a few years with no one to carry on the teachings... BANG, bullet to the head, dead and out. So for something to be legitimately considered a ryu, I would think it would have to "run the gauntlet" of time... Not that that keeps it from being called a ryu from day one, but being accepted as a ryu... Well, to me, that's something else.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Now, after seeing the cost of instruction, I am fairly confident that he's not using his rank to pad his bank account...like some other folks...

Cops and military aren't exactly overrun with wealth normally. I charge $40 a month if you can afford it, if not I will teach you for free. My income comes from the Sheriff and the college I teach at.

After third dan, does it really make any difference?
It's all gravy and seniority at that point...at least in most organizations..........

This has been my understanding normally. Time in grade which seems to vary widely.

Yiliquan 1,

So for something to be legitimately considered a ryu, I would think it would have to "run the gauntlet" of time... Not that that keeps it from being called a ryu from day one, but being accepted as a ryu... Well, to me, that's something else

Valid statement. My only experience is Uechi-Ryu and it was a ryu directly after Kanbun's death. But some 56 years later it's going strong. I don't know about other ryu such as Goju etc in regards to when they became a ryu or how long they've been around??