Martial Arts History & Influences

[puunui]

The first thing to look for when it comes to such people is the way they are treated by other established members of the group. In Koryu, how do they fit in with other Koryu people, for instance. And, once you get into a certain area, you will find who is respected in the main pretty quickly. See how the "self proclaimed" person compares - do they say similar things, or wildly different? What do other people in the field think of them? Are they respected in return? And you will often find that, even if there isn't official journals, there will still be something similar, a peer group based around discussion. Such as this one: http://www.facebook.com/groups/195458010500646/

Perhaps that is the way it is in koryu, but I do not know if you can take that and apply it to a different art or culture, like the korean martial arts. I don't believe there is any sort of official journal or a peer group on korean martial arts history. If there was one, I'd like to join.

 

[puunui]

Let's keep the discussion on topic: how an art's history shapes and influences it. Personally -- the history of a region and the history of it's martial arts are intertwined and influence its expression. We see this in Western Martial Arts; targets, weapons... all shaped by Western Culture and beliefs. We see this in Japanese and Chinese arts, too. Let be build on the comments about Korean arts to show this: Japan repeatedly invades and conquers Korea, and so the Korean arts end up taking on a Japanese flavor.

I think I came into this discussion too late. But Japan didn't repeatedly invade Korea, I think there was one major invasion (by TOYOTOMI Hideyoshi, which Japan ultimately failed to "win") and one annexation from Russia, at the beginning of the 20th century. I don't know how much of a japanese flavor korean martial arts took after TOYOTOMI Hideyoshi invaded, but there is no doubt that Japanese martial arts greatly influenced korean martial arts in the 20th century.

 

[elder999]

Actually, Hideyoshi invaded Korea twice, once from 1592-93, and again from 1594-96. Korea was also occupied by Japan in 1905, and annexed under Japanese rule from 1910-1945, as you know....

 

[puunui]

I have never seen anything at all that I would class as a native Korean martial art. At all. There aren't any, they are all borrowed from other cultures, with varying degrees of success (Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do being some of the more successful), Each of these borrowed arts gets a degree of "Korean flavour", but that doesn't make them natively Korean arts.

What about taekkyon? Where was that borrowed from?

So when it comes to Japanese borrowing from the Koreans? None at all. Very much the other way around, actually. And, I have to say, that is a very sore point with the Koreans, as the reason the Japanese methods are so big (as well as certain Chinese methods) is that the Japanese had a very nasty habit of, when they were bored, sailing over to Korea and occupying it. As this went on over a century or so, the native Korean martial traditions were basically replaced by the Japanese ones. Essentially, Korea suffers badly from a lack of a sense of individual culture, and the cultural response seems to be to explain the similarities with the Korean culture to those around it as "well, they stole that from us". Sadly, that doesn't pass muster.

Wow, I don't know what to say about the above statement. Have you been to Korea and experienced its culture first hand?

What is your explanation for where the Japanese people came from in the first place?

 

[puunui]

Actually, Hideyoshi invaded Korea twice, once from 1592-93, and again from 1594-96.

I don't know why, but I tend to think of this as one continuous thing, rather than two separate things.

Korea was also occupied by Japan in 1905, and annexed under Japanese rule from 1910-1945, as you know....

This one too, I tend to think of as one continuous thing. Also, I don't think there was any sort of "invasion" during this period, not in the military sense.

But thank you for the contribution and clarification.

 

[puunui]

It's the same with the Korean arts, TKD, TSD etc are basically forms of karate with a Korean flavour,

Kukki Taekwondo has evolved to the point where it is sufficiently different from karate, especially the sparring aspect. So much so that karate schools now are adopting taekwondo techniques and training methodologies. One example, my student taught two karate students modern taekwondo steps, strategy and kicks, which they used to win gold at the karate world championships.

Kumdo is Kendo, Yudo is Judo, Hapkido is basically Daito Ryu/Aikido with some combination of TKD-style aspects, depending on the line itself, and so on. They are not 'built on a foundation', so much as 'given a Korean flavour'.

Hapkido kicking techniques are fundamentally different than taekwondo kicking techniques. Taekwondo is a very adaptable art, such that many taekwondoin have adopted aspects of hapkido kicks (ax kick for example, and spin hook kick), but it still does not mean that hapkido is "basically Daito Ryu/Aikido with some combination of TKD-style aspects". At all.

 

[puunui]

I do believe t is important to know the history of the martial arts or at least the art you are studying to a degree. I don't think it matters how far back in the past you can trace your art, unless you are concerned with keeping it pure for historical purposes. But I do think it helps to gain a deeper understanding of your art if you know it's recent history, or it's general history in the last 50-100years.

I go back and forth on the importance of understanding history in studying the martial arts. I think for most students, they don't need to learn it. I think time is better spent on technical aspects in the beginning. I do not believe for example, that understanding the development of the roundhouse kick from its dog urinating position to its present incarnation helps improve a student's ability to do and/or use a roundhouse kick.

However looking into it's history in the 1970's shows why things yet again changed to the new walking type patterns and the Olympic style TKD.

Actually, the walking stance found in kukki taekwondo poomsae has nothing to do with olympic style taekwondo sparring.

 

[puunui]

Add to that the detail that TKD wasn't built on a foundation of karate (Shotokan, primarily), it was a copy of it with a few things, mainly more kicks, added in. It wasn't a "leading to" situation, it was a "copying that" situation.

What do you mean when you say taekwondo wasn't built on a foundation of karate but rather is "a copy of it with a few things, mainly more kicks, added in."?

 

[puunui]

I went to Tang Soo Do because that was available. The TSD books go on about how it's an ancient Korean art but the reason I progressed so quickly through the ranks of it is because it was so similiar to Wado (and Shotokan) it's patterns are virtually the same as those in Wado and Shotokan with some of the more difficult bits taken out and the addition of a random kick now and again, even the names of the patterns/hyungs are distinctly simliar to the Japanese.

Funny, but the gentleman who coined the term tangsoodo and first used it in korea, GM LEE Won Kuk, never couched tangsoodo history in terms of being an ancient korean art. When he spoke about tangsoodo history he spoke about his time training primarily under FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei, who he referred to as "Waka Sensei", to distinguish him from his father, FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, Glenn, have a good conversation with yourself there? Let's see about some answers, shall we?

Korean systems? Plural? I thought you said you studied Rhee Taekwondo for two years and got up to 2nd guep. Did you study something else besides that?

Three years, for the record... but I've also had some experience with Hapkido, and other TKD schools, as well as ensuring that I am as familiar with other systems as I can be (not hard when they're not far removed from arts I already know...)

What about taekkyon?

Find me any evidence that Taekkyon actually exists today. I see references to it, it's said that the name Tae Kwon Do was chosen due to the similarities in the names (as a callback to Taekkyon itself), but the only systems I've seen that claim to be Taekkyon are very modern systems with no hallmarks of an ancient combative system at all.

So, no.

Which martial arts have you seen that have come out of Korea? Have you studied any? I think you told us about your 5th kyu in Australian Ninjutsu, but I wasn't aware of any other styles you may of studied, or at least "seen".

He has a TKD background before he came to me, Glenn. Believe it or not, not every minute of our martial careers are documented here....

You've studied a lot of things. I'm beginning to wonder if there is an art that you haven't studied. I think we are up to 48 or 15, depending on how you count....

Yeah, I get around... mind you, you didn't understand what was being referred to when you last asked a question like that...

Pretty well established by who? And how about in the korean martial arts? Is your background and knowledge pretty well established in that?

In general arts and history, I think I've been born out pretty well here, and yes, that includes the Korean systems, although my focus is the Japanese ones.

Perhaps that is the way it is in koryu, but I do not know if you can take that and apply it to a different art or culture, like the korean martial arts. I don't believe there is any sort of official journal or a peer group on korean martial arts history. If there was one, I'd like to join.

Wow, did you miss the context in that whole quote there... and yes, it's the same. Basically John Edwards, as he couldn't, or wouldn't supply any evidence as to his Koryu training, started to make veiled attacks upon my statements by stating that I was a "self-proclaimed" expert, and I was pointing out ways to see how someone's credibility may be established... but well done for trying.

I think I came into this discussion too late. But Japan didn't repeatedly invade Korea, I think there was one major invasion (by TOYOTOMI Hideyoshi, which Japan ultimately failed to "win") and one annexation from Russia, at the beginning of the 20th century. I don't know how much of a japanese flavor korean martial arts took after TOYOTOMI Hideyoshi invaded, but there is no doubt that Japanese martial arts greatly influenced korean martial arts in the 20th century.

Well, there were also repeated Korean Campaigns by people such as Oda Nobunaga during this time as well. Kato Kiyomasa, one of Oda's generals, was famous for hunting tigers with his kamayari, for one thing. Face it, Korea has been most of Asia's whipping boy for when they get bored for centuries.

What about taekkyon? Where was that borrowed from?

Again, find me some evidence that it still exists (as the ancient art). Until that turns up, my comments stand.

Wow, I don't know what to say about the above statement. Have you been to Korea and experienced its culture first hand?

What is your explanation for where the Japanese people came from in the first place?

The people are believed to have come from the Korean Peninsula, among other places, a few thousand years ago, but that's really not the same as saying that the Japanese culture has borrowed anything from the Korean culture.

I don't know why, but I tend to think of this as one continuous thing, rather than two separate things.

Might want to rethink it, then.

This one too, I tend to think of as one continuous thing. Also, I don't think there was any sort of "invasion" during this period, not in the military sense.

But thank you for the contribution and clarification.

For further influence, we could look at the effects of the Sino-Japanese War, which was fought in large degrees in the Japanese territory of Korea.

Kukki Taekwondo has evolved to the point where it is sufficiently different from karate, especially the sparring aspect. So much so that karate schools now are adopting taekwondo techniques and training methodologies. One example, my student taught two karate students modern taekwondo steps, strategy and kicks, which they used to win gold at the karate world championships.

Which is to be expected, but doesn't remove where the art came from in the first place. It was, and largely remains, a Korean-flavoured form of Japanese Karate. The higher emphasis on kicks gives it a particular flavour, which goes towards making it a distinct and separate art, but it is still not a "native" system (I might point out that I don't consider Karate to be a "native" Japanese system either, for much the same reasons).

Hapkido kicking techniques are fundamentally different than taekwondo kicking techniques. Taekwondo is a very adaptable art, such that many taekwondoin have adopted aspects of hapkido kicks (ax kick for example, and spin hook kick), but it still does not mean that hapkido is "basically Daito Ryu/Aikido with some combination of TKD-style aspects". At all.

Depends on the form of Hapkido, doesn't it?

I go back and forth on the importance of understanding history in studying the martial arts. I think for most students, they don't need to learn it. I think time is better spent on technical aspects in the beginning. I do not believe for example, that understanding the development of the roundhouse kick from its dog urinating position to its present incarnation helps improve a student's ability to do and/or use a roundhouse kick.

Thanks for coming to the thrust of the conversation, but that was never the premise to begin with. For a thorough recap, I suggest post #143 on page 10. You might also note the section in capitals in post #136 at the top of the same page.

What do you mean when you say taekwondo wasn't built on a foundation of karate but rather is "a copy of it with a few things, mainly more kicks, added in."?

Simply that for there to have been a foundation would require a thorough grounding in all aspects of the system, up to the higher levels so as to understand the reasoning of the lower ones.

Funny, but the gentleman who coined the term tangsoodo and first used it in korea, GM LEE Won Kuk, never couched tangsoodo history in terms of being an ancient korean art. When he spoke about tangsoodo history he spoke about his time training primarily under FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei, who he referred to as "Waka Sensei", to distinguish him from his father, FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei.

And that changes what was in the book that Tez was given on the history how? The claim was still made that it was an ancient Korean art, and that claim was very easy to disprove. In fact, you're doing so here again. Once more, Glenn, you've missed the point.

 

[puunui]

Let's see about some answers, shall we?

How about answering the questions that you skipped over and/or ignored:

I have never seen anything at all that I would class as a native Korean martial art. At all. There aren't any, they are all borrowed from other cultures, with varying degrees of success (Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do being some of the more successful), Each of these borrowed arts gets a degree of "Korean flavour", but that doesn't make them natively Korean arts.

What about taekkyon? Where was that borrowed from?

Have you been to Korea and experienced its culture first hand?

Three years, for the record... but I've also had some experience with Hapkido, and other TKD schools, as well as ensuring that I am as familiar with other systems as I can be (not hard when they're not far removed from arts I already know...)

If these experiences were in Australia, who did you study hapkido and taekwondo with? Did you obtain any rank? I ask because I have friends and juniors in these arts living in Australia and wondered if you studied with them.

Find me any evidence that Taekkyon actually exists today. I see references to it, it's said that the name Tae Kwon Do was chosen due to the similarities in the names (as a callback to Taekkyon itself), but the only systems I've seen that claim to be Taekkyon are very modern systems with no hallmarks of an ancient combative system at all.

You are approaching it from the wrong angle. But there are others who have a deeper and much better understanding of taekkyon than I and they can provide you with a better response.

He has a TKD background before he came to me

He can answer for himself.

Yeah, I get around... mind you, you didn't understand what was being referred to when you last asked a question like that...

I don't need to "understand" what was being referred to. All anyone needs to know is know many things you claim to know such that you feel you can speak authoritatively about them.

In general arts and history, I think I've been born out pretty well here, and yes, that includes the Korean systems, although my focus is the Japanese ones.

Not in korean systems. I don't think too many consider you to be "born out pretty well" about that. Least I don't.

Wow, did you miss the context in that whole quote there... and yes, it's the same. Basically John Edwards, as he couldn't, or wouldn't supply any evidence as to his Koryu training, started to make veiled attacks upon my statements by stating that I was a "self-proclaimed" expert, and I was pointing out ways to see how someone's credibility may be established...

I understood the context of the quote. I do believe that you are a "self proclaimed expert", at least with respect to korean martial arts. What I was pointing out was that there is no such "official journal" or "peer group" with respect to the korean martial arts. Personally, I don't consider what my "peers" think can establish credibility with regard to "credibility". I think what my teachers and seniors thought would carry much more weight than "peers". Even if there were such a group for korean martial arts and history, I don't think I've ever heard your name mentioned.

Well, there were also repeated Korean Campaigns by people such as Oda Nobunaga during this time as well. Kato Kiyomasa, one of Oda's generals, was famous for hunting tigers with his kamayari, for one thing.

Really. What years did ODA Nobunaga have his repeated korean campaigns? As for KATO Kiyomasa, he was Hideyoshi's general in Korea, not Nobunaga. Kiyomasa was born in 1562; Nobunaga died in 1582.

Face it, Korea has been most of Asia's whipping boy for when they get bored for centuries.

Invasion of Korea was not done because of "boredom", rather it was seen as the gateway to China, due to the close proximity of Japan and Korea.

The people are believed to have come from the Korean Peninsula, among other places, a few thousand years ago, but that's really not the same as saying that the Japanese culture has borrowed anything from the Korean culture.

Wrong. Japan has borrowed many things from Korea, including such things as swordmaking, buddhism, pottery, etc. mainly from Paekje.

Which is to be expected, but doesn't remove where the art came from in the first place. It was, and largely remains, a Korean-flavoured form of Japanese Karate. The higher emphasis on kicks gives it a particular flavour, which goes towards making it a distinct and separate art, but it is still not a "native" system (I might point out that I don't consider Karate to be a "native" Japanese system either, for much the same reasons).

Where does that emphasis or focus on kicks in korean martial arts come from?

Depends on the form of Hapkido, doesn't it?

No it doesn't. Which "form of Hapkido" did you study which forms the basis of your comments?

Thanks for coming to the thrust of the conversation, but that was never the premise to begin with. For a thorough recap, I suggest post #143 on page 10. You might also note the section in capitals in post #136 at the top of the same page.

I prefer reading the original posts rather than your summary, which I saw. But thanks for the offer.

Simply that for there to have been a foundation would require a thorough grounding in all aspects of the system, up to the higher levels so as to understand the reasoning of the lower ones.

And the basis for your conclusion that taekwondo lacks this is what?

And that changes what was in the book that Tez was given on the history how? The claim was still made that it was an ancient Korean art, and that claim was very easy to disprove. In fact, you're doing so here again. Once more, Glenn, you've missed the point.

Actually you missed the point, which I thought you might get, given your position on historical study. But that's ok.

 

[puunui]

Well, there were also repeated Korean Campaigns by people such as Oda Nobunaga during this time as well. Kato Kiyomasa, one of Oda's generals, was famous for hunting tigers with his kamayari, for one thing.

Forgot about this. Got distracted by your irrelevant fact posting tactic.

But jks9199 said this: Let be build on the comments about Korean arts to show this: Japan repeatedly invades and conquers Korea, and so the Korean arts end up taking on a Japanese flavor.

Assuming you are correct, that "there were also repeated Korean Campaigns by people such as Oda Nobunaga during this time as well. Kato Kiyomasa, one of Oda's generals, was famous for hunting tigers with his kamayari, for one thing."

What Korean arts ended up taking on a Japanese flavor after those in the 16th century? And what specifically was taken up by the Korean arts? Did some Koreans adopt Kato Kiyomasa's tiger hunting techniques using a kamayari, for example?

 

[Twin Fist]

there are no native korean arts currently being practiced

There is no school, group or kwan that goes back before WW2

taekkyon? nope that story doesnt wash with me, ONE guy, with no proof? not even a scroll? no, it is clear to me that taekkyon is a modern recreation, not an unbroken line. It didnt exist till AFTER WW2 either

HRD? nope, mixed mash hodge podge of things joo bang lee studied, namely TKD and hapkido
KSW? same, but with the In Huk Suh

TKD? nope, thats been proven to death

kumdo?
yudo?

nope

hapkido? nope, aiki ryu JJ with kicks


now here is the "kicker"

none of this matters, it is what it is, and the koreans have taken the arts of thier oppressors and made it thier own. And achieved great things

There is no shame is admitting the origins of modern day korean styles

 

[Sanke]

He can answer for himself.

You're right, Glenn, I can. However, out of anyone on this forum, I'm more than happy to let Chris answer on my behalf, as he is very familiar with my MA background and current studies (obviously). But to confirm, yes, I do have a background in WTF Taekwondo, and got to 2nd gup. I don't claim to have extensive knowledge of the system, just a fair amount of familiarity with how it works.

Wrong. Japan has borrowed many things from Korea, including such things as swordmaking, buddhism, pottery, etc. mainly from Paekje.

Really. Japan borrowed methods of swordsmithing from Korea. Then would you be so kind as to show me any evidence supporting such a claim?
All swordsmithing I have seen coming from Korea have not been anything like Japanese swordsmithing, and I am also yet to see a Korean sword system that would support the idea either. So no, I don't buy it.

 

[Twin Fist]

i have read that genetically, the japanese people originated from Korea

 

[Steve]

i have read that genetically, the japanese people originated from Korea

Not an expert on TKD, Japan or Korea, but wasn't there an indigenous race in Japan, as well? I am probably wrong, but I was under the impression that the modern "Japanese" race is a thorough mix of mainland genes mixing with the indigenous races on the Japanese islands.

Does anyone know more about this?

As an aside, the bickering notwithstanding, I am thoroughly enjoying the history being discussed. It's fascinating and I'm very impressed with the depth of knowledge on all sides here.

 

[fenglong]

i have read that genetically, the japanese people originated from Korea

And Koreans originate from Siberian area. =D pretty interesting how folks moved around, and even more retarded how folks now fight who is a native what and which is only part of what culture...

 

[fenglong]

@puuunui
I can't believe you are wasting your time arguing with someone who considers his own opinion to be the only and ultimate truth..
When I no longer see a chance for something useful to come out of a convo, I drop it. Of course they will whine for a couple of months when you stop replying but hey, its your own time, don't waste it on trolls.

 

[puunui]

But to confirm, yes, I do have a background in WTF Taekwondo, and got to 2nd gup. I don't claim to have extensive knowledge of the system, just a fair amount of familiarity with how it works.

Who is your teacher and when did you study? I might know him/her, or his teacher.

Really. Japan borrowed methods of swordsmithing from Korea. Then would you be so kind as to show me any evidence supporting such a claim? All swordsmithing I have seen coming from Korea have not been anything like Japanese swordsmithing, and I am also yet to see a Korean sword system that would support the idea either. So no, I don't buy it.

Do what your unauthorized study group leader does and search the internet. You can start with this page:

http://www.touken.or.jp/english/nihon_koto_shi/(4) No.550.htm

Here is a relevant passage from the first paragraph:

Meanwhile, it is believed that fine imported swords from China and Korea had a considerable influence on Japanese swordsmiths. There is no doubt that they inspired their forging techniques. Susano no Miko killed a huge serpent (a monster snake with eight heads) then found a legendary sword called ‘Ame no Murakumo no Tsurugi’ inside the tail of the serpent. It is said that the sword that he wore and used in fighting the serpent is so-called ‘Orochi no Karasabi’ also called ‘Orochi no Aramasa’. ‘Kara’ means Korea and ‘Sabi’ edged tool, therefore, the sword used by Susano no Miko was made in Korea. In the reign of Emperor Ojin, a king of Paekche (a country of ancient Korea) presented the Japanese Imperial Court with two swords called ‘Nichigetsu Goshin Ken’ and ‘Shichishi To’. Also the king sent a Korean swordsmith called ‘Takuso’ as well as other scholars and engineers in order that they become nationalised Japanese. The sword forging skill of Korea appears to have been introduced to Japan in full on this occasion. We occasionally come across the name of Takuso in old documents and he was the founder of Kara-kanuchi-be (a tribe of Korean swordsmiths nationalised as Japanese).

 

[puunui]

Not an expert on TKD, Japan or Korea, but wasn't there an indigenous race in Japan, as well?

I believe that you are talking about the ainu.