Martial Arts History & Influences

[Instructor]

I believe that no martial art is 'pure'. The Korean styles have influence from Japan and China. The Chinese styles have influences from Japan, Korea, other Chinese styles, and India.

One exception might be the fighting styles of isolated peoples in the third world. But if they have had trade, communication, war, or any other influence from other places they share ideas.

Arguably the oldest style is Greek Pancreation and was spread during Alexander the Greats Crusade.

The reality is that most of this history is lost and what remains is subjective to the views of the historians.

I love Korean styles and I don't mind a bit that they are built on the shoulders of giants like the Japanese martial arts and Chinese martial arts. The cross pollination of ideas is what makes them great!

 

[Tez3]

@puuunui
I can't believe you are wasting your time arguing with someone who considers his own opinion to be the only and ultimate truth..
When I no longer see a chance for something useful to come out of a convo, I drop it. Of course they will whine for a couple of months when you stop replying but hey, its your own time, don't waste it on trolls.

Now that would be a thing.

 

[puunui]

I think the following was misposted to another thread:

Taekkyon, from ancient times, still exist in Korea today. What was left of what could be considered formalized Taekkyon training for competitors at the Danho Festival. These skills were passed to a few men by and elderly man named SONG Duk Ki, who as a young man had natural Taekkyon skills, and, also trained in competitive Taekkyon so he could fair better at Taekkyon competitions, like the one at the Danho Festival, or, random challenges matches. SONG Duk Ki was a common man of basic means and enjoy this rough and tumble activity. His teacher was IM Ho and said to be the same.

These men who learned Taekkyon, supported by the Korean Government Cultural Heritage Department and just recently, UNESCO, have been working hard to preserve the Taekkyon as it was taught to them by SONG Duk Ki. One of these men, who is my teachers, GM LEE Yong Bok has made great strides in research into Taekkyon. He recorded and documented every skill and explanation that SONG Duk Ki gave about Taekkyon. GM Lee has also spent several decades researching all the available records of Korean history, and other Korean traditional practices to find any relations between these cultural assets, so more can be learned.

Each of these men who have learned SONG Duk Ki's Taekkyon has organized the skills into a specific curriculum so that it can be easily learned. GM Lee now has over 500,000 Taekkyon students in Korea. The other men now have over several thousand students learning from them as well. Taekkyon is now starting to slowly spread outside of Korea and is taking root in other regions of the world.

Taekkyon is a pure Korean word, it has no traditional Chinese Character equivalent. It was a word used by the farmers, fishermen and workers in Northern Seoul, especially the Woodae and Araedae areas. It simply used to mean "kicking." In the West, we can see young boys horseplay outside, wrestling around or punching at each other, even in more serious school yard fights, when none have likely had any formal training in either. Western males tend to favor the use of their hands and upper body in this way. Korean boys tend to favor their legs in such horse play as the Korean people have lived for millenia in the very mountainous region of Korea, they developed great agility and strength in use of their legs and have a great confidence in there use.

Western or Korean men will also tend to favor their innate ability in desperate, dangerous situations, applying there skills to self defense on the street, or even in war.

So modern Taekkyon contains the technique of ancient Taekkyon, passed down from SONG Duk Ki - and - from the natural innate tendencies of the Korean people, modern Taekkyon has organized those ancient skills in a highly organized curriculum.

Just a few months ago in November, UNESCO recognized Taekkyon as unique Korean martial art, the first and only martial art in the world to gain such recognition so far.

"Intangible Heritage of Humanity
The formal title is UNESCO Masterpieces of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity. It was adopted during the 29th UNESCO General Assembly in 1997 for the protection of intangible cultural heritage amid the whirlwind of industrialization and globalization. Listings began in 2001. The UNESCO designation is based on the belief that oral and intangible properties of countries and peoples are valuable in their own right and as assets for all humanity. Once a property earns the designation, the country takes on the responsibility to preserve, develop, and pass it on. But nations also receive systematic support from UNESCO.
Taekkyon
Taekkyon is a uniquely Korean martial art centered on the use of a fighter’s bare hands. But players usually use their feet to kick or tackle the opponent to win the match. The key skill is the effective use of the body so physical moves will flow naturally like water. A taekkyon match is all about attacks and there are few defense moves. But the players also take caution not to injure the other party. The sport was banned during Japan’s colonization and was nearly lost forever. Luckily, it was preserved by a handful of people until it was designated as an important intangible cultural property No. 76 by the Korean government in 1983. The next year, the Korea Taekkyon Federation was established and public promotional efforts began. Taekkyon centers have sprung up nationwide and the practice is fast spreading as a traditional martial arts or an everyday sport."

Read more here: http://world.kbs.co.kr/english/news/news_zoom_detail.htm?No=6509

I hope this helps people understand Taekkyon a little bit better

Al Cole - Cleveland, Ohio USA
USA Taekkyon Chong Bon Bu Jeonsu Kwanjang (USA Taekkyon Headquarters Founding Director)

 

[puunui]

So the appeal of earning your black belt( a historical sign of mastery of your art), the long tradition of competition effectiveness, the appeal of learning a foriegn art and some of the culture had nothing to do with you starting judo?

Not for me.

 

[Twin Fist]

I think the following was misposted to another thread:

and i dont believe a word of it.

 

[mastercole]

Originally Posted by mastercole Taekkyon, from ancient times, still exist in Korea today. What was left of what could be considered formalized Taekkyon training for competitors at the Danho Festival. These skills were passed to a few men by and elderly man named SONG Duk Ki, who as a young man had natural Taekkyon skills, and, also trained in competitive Taekkyon so he could fair better at Taekkyon competitions, like the one at the Danho Festival, or, random challenges matches. SONG Duk Ki was a common man of basic means and enjoy this rough and tumble activity. His teacher was IM Ho and said to be the same.

These men who learned Taekkyon, supported by the Korean Government Cultural Heritage Department and just recently, UNESCO, have been working hard to preserve the Taekkyon as it was taught to them by SONG Duk Ki. One of these men, who is my teachers, GM LEE Yong Bok has made great strides in research into Taekkyon. He recorded and documented every skill and explanation that SONG Duk Ki gave about Taekkyon. GM Lee has also spent several decades researching all the available records of Korean history, and other Korean traditional practices to find any relations between these cultural assets, so more can be learned.

Each of these men who have learned SONG Duk Ki's Taekkyon has organized the skills into a specific curriculum so that it can be easily learned. GM Lee now has over 500,000 Taekkyon students in Korea. The other men now have over several thousand students learning from them as well. Taekkyon is now starting to slowly spread outside of Korea and is taking root in other regions of the world.

Taekkyon is a pure Korean word, it has no traditional Chinese Character equivalent. It was a word used by the farmers, fishermen and workers in Northern Seoul, especially the Woodae and Araedae areas. It simply used to mean "kicking." In the West, we can see young boys horseplay outside, wrestling around or punching at each other, even in more serious school yard fights, when none have likely had any formal training in either. Western males tend to favor the use of their hands and upper body in this way. Korean boys tend to favor their legs in such horse play as the Korean people have lived for millenia in the very mountainous region of Korea, they developed great agility and strength in use of their legs and have a great confidence in there use.

Western or Korean men will also tend to favor their innate ability in desperate, dangerous situations, applying there skills to self defense on the street, or even in war.

So modern Taekkyon contains the technique of ancient Taekkyon, passed down from SONG Duk Ki - and - from the natural innate tendencies of the Korean people, modern Taekkyon has organized those ancient skills in a highly organized curriculum.

Just a few months ago in November, UNESCO recognized Taekkyon as unique Korean martial art, the first and only martial art in the world to gain such recognition so far.

"Intangible Heritage of Humanity
The formal title is UNESCO Masterpieces of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity. It was adopted during the 29th UNESCO General Assembly in 1997 for the protection of intangible cultural heritage amid the whirlwind of industrialization and globalization. Listings began in 2001. The UNESCO designation is based on the belief that oral and intangible properties of countries and peoples are valuable in their own right and as assets for all humanity. Once a property earns the designation, the country takes on the responsibility to preserve, develop, and pass it on. But nations also receive systematic support from UNESCO.
Taekkyon
Taekkyon is a uniquely Korean martial art centered on the use of a fighter’s bare hands. But players usually use their feet to kick or tackle the opponent to win the match. The key skill is the effective use of the body so physical moves will flow naturally like water. A taekkyon match is all about attacks and there are few defense moves. But the players also take caution not to injure the other party. The sport was banned during Japan’s colonization and was nearly lost forever. Luckily, it was preserved by a handful of people until it was designated as an important intangible cultural property No. 76 by the Korean government in 1983. The next year, the Korea Taekkyon Federation was established and public promotional efforts began. Taekkyon centers have sprung up nationwide and the practice is fast spreading as a traditional martial arts or an everyday sport."

Read more here: http://world.kbs.co.kr/english/news/...il.htm?No=6509

I hope this helps people understand Taekkyon a little bit better

Al Cole - Cleveland, Ohio USA

USA Taekkyon Chong Bon Bu Jeonsu Kwanjang (USA Taekkyon Headquarters Founding Director)

UNESCO's decision: http://www.unesco.org/culture/ich/index.php?lg=en&pg=00011&RL=00452

 

[Josh Oakley]

Not an expert on TKD, Japan or Korea, but wasn't there an indigenous race in Japan, as well? I am probably wrong, but I was under the impression that the modern "Japanese" race is a thorough mix of mainland genes mixing with the indigenous races on the Japanese islands.

Does anyone know more about this?

As an aside, the bickering notwithstanding, I am thoroughly enjoying the history being discussed. It's fascinating and I'm very impressed with the depth of knowledge on all sides here.

I would imagine the indigenous races on the Japanese islands came from SOMEWHERE, though. Korean and/or Chinese ancestry would seem the most probable.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[Steve]

Sure, but that's analogous to saying that the Saxons were the same as the Picts were the same as the normans in Britain because they all came from somewhere else, probably mainland Europe.




Sent using Tapatalk. Please ignore typos.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Yes and no. In Japan's case, China's influence never really stopped.

Also I am not saying that the Japanese are the same as the Chinese or Koreans, that is a different argument entirely. I was going from a strictly genetic standpoint.
Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[Sanke]

This is gonna be longer than my usual posts, so sit back and relax...

Who is your teacher and when did you study? I might know him/her, or his teacher.

To be blunt Glenn, I don't really see the need to tell you. I don't really feel the need to potentially waste my old Sabumnim's time with you poking into my background. I'll be the first to admit my experience in KMAs is limited, but we're discussing history here. I don't need to have trained in every KMA on the face of the earth, or have been to Korea time and time again to comment on what I can see online and here. I stand by my statement, I am yet to see a KMA that could be considered a native KMA, but perhaps I'll add to that by saying one that is currently active. As for Taekkyon, I'm not seeing any evidence is it still being extant.
But enough of me being tangential...

Do what your unauthorized study group leader does and search the internet. You can start with this page:

http://www.touken.or.jp/english/nihon_koto_shi/(4) No.550.htmhttp://www.touken.or.jp/english/nihon_koto_shi/(4) No.550.htm

Here is a relevant passage from the first paragraph:

Meanwhile, it is believed that fine imported swords from China and Korea had a considerable influence on Japanese swordsmiths. There is no doubt that they inspired their forging techniques. Susano no Miko killed a huge serpent (a monster snake with eight heads) then found a legendary sword called ‘Ame no Murakumo no Tsurugi’ inside the tail of the serpent. It is said that the sword that he wore and used in fighting the serpent is so-called ‘Orochi no Karasabi’ also called ‘Orochi no Aramasa’. ‘Kara’ means Korea and ‘Sabi’ edged tool, therefore, the sword used by Susano no Miko was made in Korea. In the reign of Emperor Ojin, a king of Paekche (a country of ancient Korea) presented the Japanese Imperial Court with two swords called ‘Nichigetsu Goshin Ken’ and ‘Shichishi To’. Also the king sent a Korean swordsmith called ‘Takuso’ as well as other scholars and engineers in order that they become nationalised Japanese. The sword forging skill of Korea appears to have been introduced to Japan in full on this occasion. We occasionally come across the name of Takuso in old documents and he was the founder of Kara-kanuchi-be (a tribe of Korean swordsmiths nationalised as Japanese).

To start with, I would leave the comments about my group out of this. For one, it has no relivance to the discussion, other than a cheap jab, and secondly, you really don't know as much about us as you think you do. I'd say nice try, but frankly, it wasn't.

As for the rest, the story referencing 'Orochi no Karasabi', I have my doubts about the article's logic. The tale that is based on is about a Shinto god defeating an eight headed serpent with a legendary sword. True some insight as to the influences of the legend can be gleamed, but to use it as historical fact, such as:
"‘Kara’ means Korea and ‘Sabi’ edged tool, therefore, the sword used by Susano no Miko was made in Korea."
Seem like a bit of a logical leap to me. But in this case, I will say that's just my opinion, which is far from expert.

So if Korean swordsmithing influenced Japanese, we can say this was in the very early periods of Japan and Korea's history, as all examples I've seen so far seem to show Korean swords as the more Chinese-style straight sword.
Bringing this back to the original point, (Japan borrowing aspects of Korean culture) considering that the Korean style seems originated in China, which also spread to Japan, could it not be said that while Japan and Korea may have shared aspects of sword making, this is more a reflection on the Chinese method which they both borrowed from in the first place?
Yes Japan had a lot of contact with Korea, but it had more so with China, so the Korean swords they would have been exposed to would have likely been seen as Korean versions of an already established Chinese style of forging.
On the other hand, however, more recent Korean swordsmithing seems to be quite heavily influenced by the Japanese katana, which again plays into the themes of Korean systems being quite heavily influenced by Japan.

Finally, there’s the tale of Amakuni, a swordsmith in what I believe was the early Muromachi period. He was working for a lord, and found that all his swords were getting broken on the battlefield. He then went away, I believe meditating and working for some time, and created the first of what we now know as the curved Japanese sword, the Nihonto. When given to soldiers, not a single one was broken and he was hailed as a master.
Now whether or not Amakuni actually existed, or was just a kind of amalgamation of various swordsmiths coming to similar conclusions over a period of time, the fact remains that the older methods of smithing were abandoned in favor of the new ones, which were far superior in their eyes. So even if Korea did have an influence on Japan’s methods, it would have been relatively small and brief, as that style of sword was abandoned, and not much evidence of the straight Japanese sword, and how it was made, remains.

 

[Chris Parker]

How about answering the questions that you skipped over and/or ignored:

It didn't occur to you that the reason some smaller questions were left were that they weren't relevant once the others were answered? For example...

What about taekkyon? Where was that borrowed from?

Taekkyon I consider completely irrelevant, as I have seen nothing that makes me (and many others) believe that it is an actual authentic historical tradition of Korea. For the modern form, it looks dominantly Chinese, equal parts Southern systems and Beijing Opera methods. Before you say anything, I'll deal with the UNESCO thing in a bit.

Have you been to Korea and experienced its culture first hand?

I don't think you quite get what I see in this context, Glenn.

If these experiences were in Australia, who did you study hapkido and taekwondo with? Did you obtain any rank? I ask because I have friends and juniors in these arts living in Australia and wondered if you studied with them.

So I'm supposed to give you all their names so you can check up on them? I've already given you my formal TKD experience, but over the last 25 years or so I've had a number of friends, colleagues, students etc who are experienced in other arts, including Hapkido, Tae Kwon Do, and so on, and there have been many occasions for furthering my education in a number of ways. But besides all of that, the basic feel of each system is pretty easy for me to get.

You are approaching it from the wrong angle. But there are others who have a deeper and much better understanding of taekkyon than I and they can provide you with a better response.

Are you kidding? We're discussing native Korean martial arts (that currently exist and are practiced), and you think that pointing out that Taekkyon is an extinct system is approaching it from the "wrong angle"? If we're looking for arts that are native to Korea, rather than adjusted and imported systems from other cultures, then looking at what was wiped out and no longer extant is rather irrelevant....

He can answer for himself.

Yes, he can. But I'm not fond of your demanding tone, so figured I'd jump in first.

I don't need to "understand" what was being referred to. All anyone needs to know is know many things you claim to know such that you feel you can speak authoritatively about them.

That's kinda the point, Glenn, you don't get what the range of methods in the earlier list actually represented... so you have no idea how many things I "claim to know". I'll put it this way... it's like you saying that someone who specialises in French Cuisine is stretching themselves to claim to know stews, soups, desserts, snacks, and main meals.

Not in korean systems. I don't think too many consider you to be "born out pretty well" about that. Least I don't.

Well, I'll just live with your disappointment then.

I understood the context of the quote. I do believe that you are a "self proclaimed expert", at least with respect to korean martial arts. What I was pointing out was that there is no such "official journal" or "peer group" with respect to the korean martial arts. Personally, I don't consider what my "peers" think can establish credibility with regard to "credibility". I think what my teachers and seniors thought would carry much more weight than "peers". Even if there were such a group for korean martial arts and history, I don't think I've ever heard your name mentioned.

No, Glenn, you don't understand the context of the quote. The context of the quote was that John Edward made some very off-base claims, and got very aggressively defensive when asked about them, and tried to attack me. As far as an "official journal", you really didn't get what was being meant there either. And when it comes to there being "such a group", the practitioners of the Korean arts would be that group. I really have a hard time believing you're having this much trouble with such basic arguments and concepts, which only leaves the idea of you arguing due to some need to disagree. Hmm.

Really. What years did ODA Nobunaga have his repeated korean campaigns? As for KATO Kiyomasa, he was Hideyoshi's general in Korea, not Nobunaga. Kiyomasa was born in 1562; Nobunaga died in 1582.

Yes, and Kiyomasa joined Oda Nobunaga's army (under Toyotomi, as he ended up as Oda's successor) when he was 14. And Toyotomi led the initial invasions at Oda's orders... the 7 Years War was after the initial "excursions", so to speak.

Invasion of Korea was not done because of "boredom", rather it was seen as the gateway to China, due to the close proximity of Japan and Korea.

Sure, that makes perfect sense.... except that the invasion didn't lead to any type of connection to China, and established links and routes to China had existed for centuries. I mean, we're talking 16th Century here, and the Heian Period in Japan (10-12th Century) was based pretty much directly on the Chinese Imperial Court structure. Hmm.

Wrong. Japan has borrowed many things from Korea, including such things as swordmaking, buddhism, pottery, etc. mainly from Paekje.

Oh dear....

If you're looking at very early technical developments, there is some support, but for the idea that Japanese pottery is based in Korean? Nope. Same with dress, language, food, social conventions and structure, and, well, everything else. And swordsmithing? Seriously, you have to be kidding... even that article you link doesn't really support that unless you choose to highlight individual sentence fragments out of context. You know, the way you did. Oh, and are you seriously suggesting that Buddhism is Korean initially? Please....

Where does that emphasis or focus on kicks in korean martial arts come from?

A cultural preference does not make a native martial art, Glenn.

No it doesn't. Which "form of Hapkido" did you study which forms the basis of your comments?

Surely you're not saying, after all the other discussions, that all Hapkido forms are the same? As for which form forms the basis of my comments, call it observation of many.

I prefer reading the original posts rather than your summary, which I saw. But thanks for the offer.

Hey, I offered... mainly as you seemed determined to miss what was actually said, and continued with something that has been dismissed many times throughout the thread itself.

And the basis for your conclusion that taekwondo lacks this is what?

Observation.

Actually you missed the point, which I thought you might get, given your position on historical study. But that's ok.

Really? And what, pray tell, is my position on historical study?

But to the point, you quoted Tez commenting that when she started studying Tang Soo Do, she was given a book stating that TSD was centuries old, or more, although it was almost identical to the Wado Ryu she had studied previously. You then stated that the person who coined the term "Tang Soo Do" spoke about his training under Funakoshi Yoshitaka... which had little relevance other than to show that the idea of these Korean systems being centuries or millennia old is a modern idea, promoted in spite of the real history of the systems in question. So it really didn't do much, gotta say... unless you think you had a different point not found in your words themselves?

i have read that genetically, the japanese people originated from Korea

Do what your unauthorized study group leader does and search the internet. You can start with this page:

Glenn, I'm going to suggest you lay off the cheap shots and little digs, you really don't have a clue what the study group is, or what it's authority and status really is. You just end up making yourself look petty and grasping for ways to attack and discredit when you don't have any argument.

http://www.touken.or.jp/english/nihon_koto_shi/(4) No.550.htm

Here is a relevant passage from the first paragraph:

Meanwhile, it is believed that fine imported swords from China and Korea had a considerable influence on Japanese swordsmiths. There is no doubt that they inspired their forging techniques. Susano no Miko killed a huge serpent (a monster snake with eight heads) then found a legendary sword called ‘Ame no Murakumo no Tsurugi’ inside the tail of the serpent. It is said that the sword that he wore and used in fighting the serpent is so-called ‘Orochi no Karasabi’ also called ‘Orochi no Aramasa’. ‘Kara’ means Korea and ‘Sabi’ edged tool, therefore, the sword used by Susano no Miko was made in Korea. In the reign of Emperor Ojin, a king of Paekche (a country of ancient Korea) presented the Japanese Imperial Court with two swords called ‘Nichigetsu Goshin Ken’ and ‘Shichishi To’. Also the king sent a Korean swordsmith called ‘Takuso’ as well as other scholars and engineers in order that they become nationalised Japanese. The sword forging skill of Korea appears to have been introduced to Japan in full on this occasion. We occasionally come across the name of Takuso in old documents and he was the founder of Kara-kanuchi-be (a tribe of Korean swordsmiths nationalised as Japanese).

Bluntly, Glenn, a couple of bolded, out of context comments don't make an argument... and going through the whole page there shows your conclusions to be rather lacking, to say the least. Did you read when it got up to the Kogarasu Maru (quite a famous blade attributed to Amakuni), and the author goes to great pains to point out the way that the Japanese smithing methods were unlike those earlier imported methods, to the degree that the newer weapons (from the Kamakura period, or a bit before, really) were definitively superior to the older ones?

I also note that there was another response you had posted which is no longer there, but you included another website (a high school friend of yours) on Korean swords and weapons... which also was rather lacking in any real support. It had Korean forms of Chinese swords and polearms (including spears, kwan dao, and more) as well as Korean copies of Japanese swords.... including Korean copies of the Japanese form of Western military blades. Now, are you about to argue that the Western military sabre is based on Korean weapons due to the pictures on that site?

UNESCO's decision: http://www.unesco.org/culture/ich/index.php?lg=en&pg=00011&RL=00452

To be blunt, I'd want to know more about the lobbying group and those that awarded the title.

From the articles linked, there was a big push to get a number of Korean items given the award, including tightrope walking and Imperial cuisine (which didn't make it). Honestly, that doesn't surprise me much... although the common thing is to look to Kim Jong Il and his proclivities for self-promotion (claiming to have invented the hamburger, for example), but that does come across as just a very extreme example of a pervading aspect of Korean psychology. As so much of their culture was taken, suppressed, over-written etc, there is a kind of desperate desire to put themselves above others, claiming themselves as the source of surrounding cultures to explain the similarities, rather than the more logical (and obvious, as well as correct) idea that the reason for the similarities is that the outside cultures have shaped the Korean one.

I'd also like to know the martial arts understanding of those who acknowledged Taekkyon in UNESCO... as I don't think they'd have much understanding of what traits to look for in historical systems as opposed to modern ones. The fact that this is the only martial art in the lists, to me, speaks volumes. Particularly considering Koryu in Japan, which is far more documented and far more verifiable.

 

[Instructor]

I feel on the whole that the interaction of Japan with Korea impacted the fighting arts and weaponry on both sides. Korea didn't invent martial arts, but in fairness, neither did Japan. I am surprised by how vehemently you folks are debating this. For my eyes it's impossible to see Tae Kwon Do and not see the threads of Japanese Karate running through it. But conversely modern Japanese Karate has also been influenced by Tae Kwon Do. To deny that is folly.

Many if not most Hapkido people freely admit that it's a derivitive of Japanese Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu blended with the punching and kicking arts of Korea. Most of us admit a common ancestry with Aikido and there is nothing wrong with that.

Korea has been the melting pot of the Asian world since the dawn of time. They have and continue to strive to have their own identy and culture, it's important to them. I think however, it is a mistake to characterize Korean martial arts as something wholly Korean. The diversity that exists within Korean martial arts is what gives them strength.

If I might speak metaphorically. Imagine a child minding his own business and a bully beats him up with a stick. The next day when the bully goes to beat him up again he notices that this time the child has a stick of his own.

Should we think less of the child because he didn't invent the idea of the stick? I think no. If Korea didn't assimilate the martial arts of the other cultures they would have been overrun. Where Korea excels is they take the ideas of other cultures and often they innovate them and make them uniquely Korean.

I have no experience with Taekyon so I will not step into that puddle.

 

[puunui]

It didn't occur to you that the reason some smaller questions were left were that they weren't relevant once the others were answered? For example...

No. It looked like you simply ignored the question because the answer went against you. You ignored some additional questions from the post you are responding to too. I'm sure you have your reasons, including but not limited to the one above.

Taekkyon I consider completely irrelevant, as I have seen nothing that makes me (and many others) believe that it is an actual authentic historical tradition of Korea. For the modern form, it looks dominantly Chinese, equal parts Southern systems and Beijing Opera methods.

oh dear.

I don't think you quite get what I see in this context, Glenn.

I do get the fact that you didn't answer again, which tells me that you haven't been to Korea (or Japan; you never answered that question either). But no worries. I haven't been

So I'm supposed to give you all their names so you can check up on them? I've already given you my formal TKD experience, but over the last 25 years or so I've had a number of friends, colleagues, students etc who are experienced in other arts, including Hapkido, Tae Kwon Do, and so on, and there have been many occasions for furthering my education in a number of ways. But besides all of that, the basic feel of each system is pretty easy for me to get.

You don't have to do anything you don't want to do. Like I said before, I have friends and juniors in Australia and wondered if you studied with any of them. That's all. But from your answer, Rhee Taekwondo up to 2nd guep but no other formal training. Got it.

Are you kidding? We're discussing native Korean martial arts (that currently exist and are practiced), and you think that pointing out that Taekkyon is an extinct system is approaching it from the "wrong angle"? If we're looking for arts that are native to Korea, rather than adjusted and imported systems from other cultures, then looking at what was wiped out and no longer extant is rather irrelevant....

Like I said, you are looking at it from the wrong angle. taekkyon is not extinct. soo bahk, yes. hwa rang, yes. taekkyon, no.

Yes, he can. But I'm not fond of your demanding tone, so figured I'd jump in first.

This is sanke's comment:

I agree with Chris, I've seen quite a lot of the MAs that come out of Korea, and not one is what I would call a native one.




To which I asked: Which martial arts have you seen that have come out of Korea? Have you studied any?

There was no "demanding". I think it is reasonable to ask which martial arts he has "seen", given his statement that there are "quite a lot" and that his observations is the basis of his opinion. He never answered by the way, which is ok.

That's kinda the point, Glenn, you don't get what the range of methods in the earlier list actually represented... so you have no idea how many things I "claim to know". I'll put it this way... it's like you saying that someone who specialises in French Cuisine is stretching themselves to claim to know stews, soups, desserts, snacks, and main meals.

Whatever. I think for purposes of this discussion, the fact that you have a 2nd guep in Rhee Taekwondo but no other formal training in the korean martial arts, have never been to korea, and yet you feel that you can authoritatively speak about the korean martial arts, is the real point here.

Well, I'll just live with your disappointment then.

I don't think "disappointment" is the correct word.

No, Glenn, you don't understand the context of the quote. The context of the quote was that John Edward made some very off-base claims, and got very aggressively defensive when asked about them, and tried to attack me.

Sort of what you like to do to me when I ask you about things. Hmm.

As far as an "official journal", you really didn't get what was being meant there either.

I don't know what you mean, at least with respect to the korean martial arts. There is no "official journal". And that you don't know that? Hmm.

And when it comes to there being "such a group", the practitioners of the Korean arts would be that group.

Well, as far as that "group", your name never gets mentioned as any sort of expert or authority on the "korean arts". So that doesn't help establish your credibility in that regard, at least with respect to the korean martial arts. Hmm.

I really have a hard time believing you're having this much trouble with such basic arguments and concepts, which only leaves the idea of you arguing due to some need to disagree. Hmm.

A better way to state it is that you are having a hard time getting me to swallow what you are shoveling. Maybe your "peer group", composed of other Rhee Taekwondo 2nd guep students who stopped training twenty years ago, might agree with you. There is that. About your 2nd guep, have you taken steps to maintain that level of skill? If not, there are those out there who feel that you may no longer be worthy of such rank, that rank is something that has to be maintained through training, or lost. Hmm.

Yes, and Kiyomasa joined Oda Nobunaga's army (under Toyotomi, as he ended up as Oda's successor) when he was 14. And Toyotomi led the initial invasions at Oda's orders... the 7 Years War was after the initial "excursions", so to speak.

That is different from what you earlier wrote:

Well, there were also repeated Korean Campaigns by people such as Oda Nobunaga during this time as well. Kato Kiyomasa, one of Oda's generals, was famous for hunting tigers with his kamayari, for one thing.

So Kato Kiyomasa was a general under Oda Nobunaga when he was how old? And when exactly were these "repeated Korean Campaigns by Oda Nobunaga and one of his general, Kato Kiyomasa?

And on focusing in on the above, I see you failed to address the point, which was how korean martial arts were influenced by japanese martial arts after these "repeated Korean Campaigns". But that's ok.

Sure, that makes perfect sense.... except that the invasion didn't lead to any type of connection to China, and established links and routes to China had existed for centuries. I mean, we're talking 16th Century here, and the Heian Period in Japan (10-12th Century) was based pretty much directly on the Chinese Imperial Court structure. Hmm.

Your tendency towards piling on irrelevant information is showing again. The idea of Oda Nobunaga was the conquest of China going through the korean pennisula. Korea wasn't the goal, china was. Japan was not interested in attacking the korean pennisula because they were "bored", like you said earlier.

If you're looking at very early technical developments, there is some support, but for the idea that Japanese pottery is based in Korean? Nope. Same with dress, language, food, social conventions and structure, and, well, everything else.

I don't think it is disputed or can be disputed that Japan's culture has been greatly influenced by paekje. Again, the japanese emperor has admitted that he has korean blood in him.


[/QUOTE]And swordsmithing? Seriously, you have to be kidding... even that article you link doesn't really support that unless you choose to highlight individual sentence fragments out of context. You know, the way you did. [/QUOTE]

I quoted the link so that people can read the entire article for themselves. Here it is again: http://www.touken.or.jp/english/nihon_koto_shi/(4)%20No.550.htm

Here are some more highlights from that article:

"I suppose that swordsmiths of Japan had belonged to the Imperial Court until the Nara Period and Yamato-kanuchi-be, of which founder was Amatsu Mara, is the oldest lineage and the main current of Japanese swordsmiths. Since then, sword forging techniques were introduced from Korea and China and Yamato-kaji (native swordsmiths) absorbed their techniques and came to have the same level of sword forging skill as the Chinese and Koreans. As mentioned before, the origin of Yamato swords and the Naminohira school is found in the extant swords of the Shoso-in Depository. I presume that Yamato and old Kyushu swords have traces of the workmanship of Chinese and Korean swords."


[/QUOTE]Oh, and are you seriously suggesting that Buddhism is Korean initially? [/QUOTE]

You know I am not suggesting that. That is more of your attempts to bring in irrelevant points. What is not in dispute is that buddhism came to japan from and through korea.

A cultural preference does not make a native martial art, Glenn.

Where did that "cultural preference" come from?

Surely you're not saying, after all the other discussions, that all Hapkido forms are the same? As for which form forms the basis of my comments, call it observation of many.

Not all hapkido "forms" are the same, but we can trace hapkido kicking techniques and concepts to three people, none of whom took taekwondo. There are a lot of people who have chosen to blend in taekwondo kicks and call it hapkido, but that doesn't mean that those are hapkido kicks.

Hey, I offered... mainly as you seemed determined to miss what was actually said, and continued with something that has been dismissed many times throughout the thread itself.

A more accurate statement is that I prefer not to read a summary colored by your perspective and point of view.

Observation.

That explains it.

Really? And what, pray tell, is my position on historical study?

Go read what you wrote earlier in the thread.

But to the point, you quoted Tez commenting that when she started studying Tang Soo Do, she was given a book stating that TSD was centuries old, or more, although it was almost identical to the Wado Ryu she had studied previously. You then stated that the person who coined the term "Tang Soo Do" spoke about his training under Funakoshi Yoshitaka... which had little relevance other than to show that the idea of these Korean systems being centuries or millennia old is a modern idea, promoted in spite of the real history of the systems in question. So it really didn't do much, gotta say... unless you think you had a different point not found in your words themselves?

Yup, missing the point. oh well.

Glenn, I'm going to suggest you lay off the cheap shots and little digs, you really don't have a clue what the study group is, or what it's authority and status really is. You just end up making yourself look petty and grasping for ways to attack and discredit when you don't have any argument.

try looking in the mirror. Look how many "cheap shots and little digs" you constantly take against those who have the nerve to disagree or challenge you, on anything, including arts in which you have color belt ranking, much less those you haven't even studied "formally". Really.

Bluntly, Glenn, a couple of bolded, out of context comments don't make an argument... and going through the whole page there shows your conclusions to be rather lacking, to say the least. Did you read when it got up to the Kogarasu Maru (quite a famous blade attributed to Amakuni), and the author goes to great pains to point out the way that the Japanese smithing methods were unlike those earlier imported methods, to the degree that the newer weapons (from the Kamakura period, or a bit before, really) were definitively superior to the older ones?

We can let people read the article for themselves, rather than having it filtered through your rose colored glasses. Here is the link again:

http://www.touken.or.jp/english/nihon_koto_shi/(4)%20No.550.htm

Amakuni was probably Korean. As for "superior", you mean like how the kicking techniques of korean martial arts are superior to karate such that karate is now adopting korean kicking techniques?

I also note that there was another response you had posted which is no longer there, but you included another website (a high school friend of yours) on Korean swords and weapons... which also was rather lacking in any real support. It had Korean forms of Chinese swords and polearms (including spears, kwan dao, and more) as well as Korean copies of Japanese swords.... including Korean copies of the Japanese form of Western military blades. Now, are you about to argue that the Western military sabre is based on Korean weapons due to the pictures on that site?

I noticed that. What happened to that post? He wasn't my high school friend; I got to know him later, and we found out that we went to the same high school, although he is one year younger than I. We did go on a trip to Korea together though. Good guy.

 

[puunui]

@puunui
I can't believe you are wasting your time arguing with someone who considers his own opinion to be the only and ultimate truth..

I'm beginning to understand what you mean.

 

[Chris Parker]

No. It looked like you simply ignored the question because the answer went against you. You ignored some additional questions from the post you are responding to too. I'm sure you have your reasons, including but not limited to the one above.

I ignore questions if they are irrelevant or inconsequential, Glenn.

oh dear.

Nice rebuttal. Allow me to counter it by asking what you see in the modern form and practice that makes you think it's actually a historical martial tradition, if you're so convinced?

I do get the fact that you didn't answer again, which tells me that you haven't been to Korea (or Japan; you never answered that question either). But no worries. I haven't been

Actually, I did answer, but I answered the relevant question underneath your overt one.

You don't have to do anything you don't want to do. Like I said before, I have friends and juniors in Australia and wondered if you studied with any of them. That's all. But from your answer, Rhee Taekwondo up to 2nd guep but no other formal training. Got it.

Formally? Correct. Informally, however...

Like I said, you are looking at it from the wrong angle. taekkyon is not extinct. soo bahk, yes. hwa rang, yes. taekkyon, no.

Please. Some evidence, if you would be so kind? And are you seriously bringing HwaRang into this?

This is sanke's comment:

I agree with Chris, I've seen quite a lot of the MAs that come out of Korea, and not one is what I would call a native one.

To which I asked: Which martial arts have you seen that have come out of Korea? Have you studied any?

There was no "demanding". I think it is reasonable to ask which martial arts he has "seen", given his statement that there are "quite a lot" and that his observations is the basis of his opinion. He never answered by the way, which is ok.

Then let's say it's the overall approach you take.

Whatever. I think for purposes of this discussion, the fact that you have a 2nd guep in Rhee Taekwondo but no other formal training in the korean martial arts, have never been to korea, and yet you feel that you can authoritatively speak about the korean martial arts, is the real point here.

Okay, then, how about the smaller detail that I've been researching, reading, learning about martial arts, including Korean systems, for the past 3 decades? Does that help a bit?

Sort of what you like to do to me when I ask you about things. Hmm.

There hasn't been a attack yet, Glenn. You're not that much on my radar, honestly. And besides, such actions just show a lack of argument.

I don't know what you mean, at least with respect to the korean martial arts. There is no "official journal". And that you don't know that? Hmm.

You know, I thought it was pretty clear myself. There is no "official journal", what there is is a community of people who form a peer group, and that is where such things are born out.

Well, as far as that "group", your name never gets mentioned as any sort of expert or authority on the "korean arts". So that doesn't help establish your credibility in that regard, at least with respect to the korean martial arts. Hmm.

Well, the peer group in discussion there would more realistically be the peer group of the membership of this forum, and is in regard to general martial arts rather than necessarily Korean systems specific.

A better way to state it is that you are having a hard time getting me to swallow what you are shoveling. Maybe your "peer group", composed of other Rhee Taekwondo 2nd guep students who stopped training twenty years ago, might agree with you. There is that. About your 2nd guep, have you taken steps to maintain that level of skill? If not, there are those out there who feel that you may no longer be worthy of such rank, that rank is something that has to be maintained through training, or lost. Hmm.

Well, that's a good way to take a sentence completely out of context...

That is different from what you earlier wrote:

So Kato Kiyomasa was a general under Oda Nobunaga when he was how old? And when exactly were these "repeated Korean Campaigns by Oda Nobunaga and one of his general, Kato Kiyomasa?

And on focusing in on the above, I see you failed to address the point, which was how korean martial arts were influenced by japanese martial arts after these "repeated Korean Campaigns". But that's ok.

16 year old Generals (if from the right families) weren't uncommon... but if you're saying that that's the point? Wow, have you missed the actual meaning of what has been said.... the actual mention was to do with the influence of Japanese culture on Korean, mainly from a suppression of the Korean culture, and that was one time when such things occurred. Not just martial arts... and, for the record, the primary influence would be on the weaponry at the time, with any unarmed systems that might be around not surviving the later annexing of the nation. If there was really much in the way of unarmed systems that is.... but I'll save that argument for your evidence on Taekkyon....

Your tendency towards piling on irrelevant information is showing again. The idea of Oda Nobunaga was the conquest of China going through the korean pennisula. Korea wasn't the goal, china was. Japan was not interested in attacking the korean pennisula because they were "bored", like you said earlier.

Then why was there no continuation into China? And if an invasion of China was the aim, why not just go straight there, as they had been for centuries? Why waste near onto a decade in Korea first?

I don't think it is disputed or can be disputed that Japan's culture has been greatly influenced by paekje. Again, the japanese emperor has admitted that he has korean blood in him.

And I have Polish and Swiss blood in me, as well as Irish. But none of that is a cultural influence, it's a genetic one. If you can't see the difference, I'd suggest getting out of the argument.

I quoted the link so that people can read the entire article for themselves. Here it is again: http://www.touken.or.jp/english/nihon_koto_shi/(4) No.550.htm

Here are some more highlights from that article:

"I suppose that swordsmiths of Japan had belonged to the Imperial Court until the Nara Period and Yamato-kanuchi-be, of which founder was Amatsu Mara, is the oldest lineage and the main current of Japanese swordsmiths. Since then, sword forging techniques were introduced from Korea and China and Yamato-kaji (native swordsmiths) absorbed their techniques and came to have the same level of sword forging skill as the Chinese and Koreans. As mentioned before, the origin of Yamato swords and the Naminohira school is found in the extant swords of the Shoso-in Depository. I presume that Yamato and old Kyushu swords have traces of the workmanship of Chinese and Korean swords."

And again you miss the later part where it talks about the true Japanese swords being universally superior to the older Shoso-in examples? Showing that the development of swordsmithing is not an influence of Korean culture?

Oh, and are you seriously suggesting that Buddhism is Korean initially?

You know I am not suggesting that. That is more of your attempts to bring in irrelevant points. What is not in dispute is that buddhism came to japan from and through korea.

You're not suggesting it? Except where you specifically stated it? Oh, but for the record, what is not in dispute is that Buddhism came to Japan from China, not Korea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Japan Again, this is more a case of Korean culture wanting to claim things that don't have evidence to support them. Good try, though.

Where did that "cultural preference" come from?

In Slavic nations there is a cultural preference for starchy foods, due to, amongst other things, the weather. But that doesn't mean that the development of the chip shows the influence of Germany.

In other words, cultural preference is no indication of native martial traditions. It's a non-argument, Glenn.

Not all hapkido "forms" are the same, but we can trace hapkido kicking techniques and concepts to three people, none of whom took taekwondo. There are a lot of people who have chosen to blend in taekwondo kicks and call it hapkido, but that doesn't mean that those are hapkido kicks.

Actually, a fair amount of the material I see show a lot of similarity to TKD kicking... and there are a number of accounts of early forms of the art, such as Tang Soo Do, being instrumental in forming the kicking approach of Hapkido.

A more accurate statement is that I prefer not to read a summary colored by your perspective and point of view.

Yet you still came back with the same misunderstanding. Hmm.

That explains it.

Yes it does. But I don't think you get what I mean by that.

Go read what you wrote earlier in the thread.

I'm more than aware of my own take on the place of historical study, I'm interested in what you think it might be.

Yup, missing the point. oh well.

So a direct recap of exactly what was stated still "misses the point"? Really, Glenn?

try looking in the mirror. Look how many "cheap shots and little digs" you constantly take against those who have the nerve to disagree or challenge you, on anything, including arts in which you have color belt ranking, much less those you haven't even studied "formally". Really.

Show me one, Glenn. Show me where I attempt to belittle someone in the same way you do.

We can let people read the article for themselves, rather than having it filtered through your rose colored glasses. Here is the link again:

http://www.touken.or.jp/english/nihon_koto_shi/(4) No.550.htm

Amakuni was probably Korean. As for "superior", you mean like how the kicking techniques of korean martial arts are superior to karate such that karate is now adopting korean kicking techniques?

What possible basis do you have for saying that Amakuni was probably Korean?!?! That isn't even hinted at anywhere else, Glenn. And what do modern Korean systems approach to kicking have to do with the comments about bladed weaponry hundreds of years ago? And you accuse me of bringing in irrelevant aspects...

I noticed that. What happened to that post? He wasn't my high school friend; I got to know him later, and we found out that we went to the same high school, although he is one year younger than I. We did go on a trip to Korea together though. Good guy.

Might be a good guy, but the site wasn't what you made it out to be.

I'm beginning to understand what you mean.

Before you get too chummy with Fenglong there, you may want to know why he's saying such things: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?94605-My-own-MA

If you want to have him as an ally, go ahead. But it won't really help your credibility in being able to tell who to listen to...

 

[Sanke]

I’ll do a bit of picking and choosing here, as Chris covered the majority of it in his post, but there’s a thing or two I’d like to throw my 2-cent in on.

This is sanke's comment:

I agree with Chris, I've seen quite a lot of the MAs that come out of Korea, and not one is what I would call a native one.

To which I asked: Which martial arts have you seen that have come out of Korea? Have you studied any?

There was no "demanding". I think it is reasonable to ask which martial arts he has "seen", given his statement that there are "quite a lot" and that his observations is the basis of his opinion. He never answered by the way, which is ok.

You’re right, I did miss that. To be honest, after Parker’s responses I’d thought we’d moved past it, but seeing as you mentioned it again;
I’ve seen a few Korean systems, mostly either just demonstrations or videos. Taekwondo would be the main one, Hapkido, Haidong gumdo, Kumdo and Teakkyon. I might have seen some others, but probably not to be honest. While I haven’t trained in all of these, or talked at length with any high ranking people, that doesn’t mean I can’t make observations about these systems. And again, none of them seem like what I would consider a native Korean MA. The odd one out, Taekyyon comes close, but the stuff that’s out there today isn’t indicative of an older, traditional system when compared to others, and really seems more like a modern reproduction, heavily influenced by the other currently existing KMAs. So I’m not convinced about Taekyyon in that sense.

I don't think it is disputed or can be disputed that Japan's culture has been greatly influenced by paekje. Again, the japanese emperor has admitted that he has korean blood in him.

Actually, that’s not really true. It’s not disputed that the Japanese people are biologically descended from Korea (to the best of my knowledge), but that’s not the same thing as saying they are culturally descended. If anything, that influence came much more from China directly, than Korea. And the fact that the emperor has Korean blood has little to do with cultural development, just that he’s part Korean. Go figure.

Amakuni was probably Korean.

Really. And your evidence for that statement would be? Or even anything that would have lead you to that conclusion? Your friend’s website certainly didn’t prove anything other than he’s collected a lot of Korean-made versions of swords originating in other countries.

I noticed that. What happened to that post?

I reported it, and it was apparently removed. If you want more spesics, I would ask the mods.

 

[puunui]

I ignore questions if they are irrelevant or inconsequential, Glenn.

Among others.

Nice rebuttal. Allow me to counter it by asking what you see in the modern form and practice that makes you think it's actually a historical martial tradition, if you're so convinced?

Sure you can ask, but I ignore questions if they are irrelevant or inconsequential.


Actually, I did answer, but I answered the relevant question underneath your overt one.

Formally? Correct. Informally, however...

Three years of Rhee Taekwondo and some "informal" studies as well. Got it.

Please. Some evidence, if you would be so kind?

Go search the internet. It's all over the place.

Then let's say it's the overall approach you take.

My overall approach is truth seeking and fact finding, as well as helping others who wish to be helped.

Okay, then, how about the smaller detail that I've been researching, reading, learning about martial arts, including Korean systems, for the past 3 decades? Does that help a bit?

No. Your reading, etc. on koryu really doesn't help you regarding taekkyon. At all.

There hasn't been a attack yet, Glenn. You're not that much on my radar, honestly. And besides, such actions just show a lack of argument.

Yet? Is that a threat?

You know, I thought it was pretty clear myself. There is no "official journal", what there is is a community of people who form a peer group, and that is where such things are born out.

If that were true then you would not be a part of the one concerning korean martial arts, if there was such a group. And why would you be? You are a ninjutsu and koryu guy.

Well, the peer group in discussion there would more realistically be the peer group of the membership of this forum, and is in regard to general martial arts rather than necessarily Korean systems specific.

Why would it be that? After all, we are talking about korean martial arts history, and again, if there were a "peer group" regarding that on this forum, you wouldn't be considered a part of it. In my opinion, would take more than three years in Rhee Taekwondo and a 2nd guep to be a member of that. And frankly, I don't know how anyone could consider themselves an "expert" on korean or japanese martial arts without ever having visited either country. The purest water comes closest from the source.

16 year old Generals (if from the right families) weren't uncommon...

And you are saying Kato Kiyomasa was a 16 year old general under Oda Nobunaga because he was from the right family?

but if you're saying that that's the point? Wow, have you missed the actual meaning of what has been said.... the actual mention was to do with the influence of Japanese culture on Korean, mainly from a suppression of the Korean culture, and that was one time when such things occurred.

How was Korean culture "suppressed" during the 16th century during those repeated Korean Campaigns by Oda Nobunaga, his 16 year old general kato kiyomasa the tiger hunter or toyotomi hideyoshi? You know what, never mind. Don't have to answer. if you had an answer we would have already received one, in the form of a super long post.

Then why was there no continuation into China? And if an invasion of China was the aim, why not just go straight there, as they had been for centuries? Why waste near onto a decade in Korea first?

That's all explained on the internet. You don't need me for that answer, the point being that it wasn't due to "boredom", like you said.

And I have Polish and Swiss blood in me, as well as Irish. But none of that is a cultural influence, it's a genetic one. If you can't see the difference, I'd suggest getting out of the argument.

Do you have any japanese blood in you?

What I see is you trying to somehow separate the people from their culture. When the british came to the US or to Australia for example, they didn't just bring their genes with them, but their language, their culture, their skills. Same thing with Baekjae to the Japanese islands. What you are doing essentially is trying to argue that England had little or no influence on the culture of the US or Australia, except it is korea/japan instead. To me, the US is in large part from England, I have no problem admitting that, anymore than I have a problem admitting that Japanese culture is in large part from Korea, specifically Baekjae. There are whole books written on the subject. The korean ancestor of the Japanese emperor didn't come to Japan from Korea by himself.

And again you miss the later part where it talks about the true Japanese swords being universally superior to the older Shoso-in examples? Showing that the development of swordsmithing is not an influence of Korean culture?

I did read where the "superior" korean swordsmithing was brought to Japan. Those swordsmiths from korea were given japanese citizenship, so I guess in that sense, they became "japanese", but still the skills were from korea, baekjae in particular.

You're not suggesting it? Except where you specifically stated it? Oh, but for the record, what is not in dispute is that Buddhism came to Japan from China, not Korea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Japan Again, this is more a case of Korean culture wanting to claim things that don't have evidence to support them. Good try, though.

Did you read the article? Here is a line from it:

"Although it is possible that Buddhism was known to the Japanese previously, the "official" introduction of Buddhism to Japan is dated to 552 in Nihon Shoki (otherwise 538 according to the History of Gangōji monastery),[SUP][7][/SUP] when Seong of Baekje sent a mission to Nara including some Buddhist monks or nuns, together with an image of Buddha, and numbers of sutras to introduce Buddhism."


The citation for that quote comes from two sources, Bowring, Richard John (2005). The religious traditions of Japan, 500-1600. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press. pp. 15–17. ISBN 0-521-85119-X.^ Dykstra, Yoshiko Kurata; De Bary, William Theodore (2001). Sources of Japanese tradition.

Neither one is Korean.

In Slavic nations there is a cultural preference for starchy foods, due to, amongst other things, the weather. But that doesn't mean that the development of the chip shows the influence of Germany. In other words, cultural preference is no indication of native martial traditions. It's a non-argument, Glenn.

Non argument to you, starchy food example nonwithstanding.

Actually, a fair amount of the material I see show a lot of similarity to TKD kicking... and there are a number of accounts of early forms of the art, such as Tang Soo Do, being instrumental in forming the kicking approach of Hapkido.

Perhaps if you studied hapkido "formally", then you would reach a different conclusion. And irrespective of what you have read, there is no connection between Tang Soo Do and Hapkido kicking. At all.

Yet you still came back with the same misunderstanding. Hmm.

Hardly, you attempted to paint yourself as an expert in korean martial arts, which in my opinion you are not. There is no misunderstanding.

Yes it does. But I don't think you get what I mean by that.

Actually I do. That is your perception and opinion, based on your three years of Rhee Taekwondo, 2nd guep rank, plus the informal studies in other korean martial arts. No problem.

I'm more than aware of my own take on the place of historical study, I'm interested in what you think it might be.

Again, go read what you wrote earlier in this thread.

So a direct recap of exactly what was stated still "misses the point"? Really, Glenn?

Yes, really. I do understand that your "direct recap" is your perspective on what was said, but I don't think you get what I meant by that.

Show me one, Glenn. Show me where I attempt to belittle someone in the same way you do.

So are you saying your study group is authorized?

What possible basis do you have for saying that Amakuni was probably Korean?!?! That isn't even hinted at anywhere else, Glenn.

If you do more research, you might find the answer to your own questions.

And what do modern Korean systems approach to kicking have to do with the comments about bladed weaponry hundreds of years ago?

You brought up Amakuni, not me, probably because it is closer to your comfort zone than the present topic.

Might be a good guy, but the site wasn't what you made it out to be.

I'm sure he will give your opinion all the consideration that it warrants.

Before you get too chummy with Fenglong there, you may want to know why he's saying such things: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?94605-My-own-MA

If you want to have him as an ally, go ahead. But it won't really help your credibility in being able to tell who to listen to...

I don't know if he is my "ally", so much as I can appreciate his point of view. I did look over the thread, it was more of the same from you, you setting up the definition of what is the topic and then hammering away at people who your feel can't measure up to your narrow definition. Even in this one you're trying to do that. That seems to be your thing. And on that topic above, personally, if he wants to set up his own style, then more power to him. Doesn't really affect me, so what do I care what the parameters of his new style is. People set up their own styles in the korean martial arts all the time, which may or may not be substantially similar to the style that they came from. I don't really care about those either.

 

[puunui]

You’re right, I did miss that. To be honest, after Parker’s responses I’d thought we’d moved past it, but seeing as you mentioned it again; I’ve seen a few Korean systems, mostly either just demonstrations or videos. Taekwondo would be the main one, Hapkido, Haidong gumdo, Kumdo and Teakkyon. I might have seen some others, but probably not to be honest. While I haven’t trained in all of these, or talked at length with any high ranking people, that doesn’t mean I can’t make observations about these systems.

Yes you can make observations, but the weight given to your observations will be in direct proportion to your knowledge and experience, which in this case, consists of a 2nd guep ranking in kukki taekwondo, along with watching some demonstrations and video of other arts.

And again, none of them seem like what I would consider a native Korean MA. The odd one out, Taekyyon comes close, but the stuff that’s out there today isn’t indicative of an older, traditional system when compared to others, and really seems more like a modern reproduction, heavily influenced by the other currently existing KMAs. So I’m not convinced about Taekyyon in that sense.

No problem. I'm sure the taekkyon leaders in korea will continue forward with what they are doing, irrespective of your opinion.

Actually, that’s not really true. It’s not disputed that the Japanese people are biologically descended from Korea (to the best of my knowledge), but that’s not the same thing as saying they are culturally descended. If anything, that influence came much more from China directly, than Korea. And the fact that the emperor has Korean blood has little to do with cultural development, just that he’s part Korean. Go figure.

Where do you get the "part korean"? Is that your understanding of what the emperor said? As for the rest of your post, you can try and separate the genes from the culture if you want.

Really. And your evidence for that statement would be? Or even anything that would have lead you to that conclusion? Your friend’s website certainly didn’t prove anything other than he’s collected a lot of Korean-made versions of swords originating in other countries.

Go study. It's out there.

I reported it, and it was apparently removed. If you want more spesics, I would ask the mods.

Weren't you already warned about that, talking about stuff like the above?

 

[Sanke]

Yes you can make observations, but the weight given to your observations will be in direct proportion to your knowledge and experience, which in this case, consists of a 2nd guep ranking in kukki taekwondo, along with watching some demonstrations and video of other arts.

My knowledge and experience isn't limited to my TKD background just because we're discussing KMA in general. Believe it or not, you don't need to train in every system in the world to have some understanding of each one's structure. It's doubtful that I'll understand the deeper subtleties, but things like it's development, purpose, goals, etc aren't invisible to those outside of them, you know.

No problem. I'm sure the taekkyon leaders in korea will continue forward with what they are doing, irrespective of your opinion.

I have no doubt that they will, nothing I've said here is anything negative towards the arts whatsoever. Just because I wouldn't consider it a native KMA doesn't mean it's any less of an art. Just that it's background is different.

Where do you get the "part korean"? Is that your understanding of what the emperor said? As for the rest of your post, you can try and separate the genes from the culture if you want.

I will separate them, because that's the reality of it. Just because you have ancestry in a particular part of the world doesn't mean you're immediately going take on their cultural traits if you're raised in a completely different environment. They're simply not same.

Go study. It's out there.

Not a very convincing argument, considering your original claim was 'he was probably Korean'. Not exactly showing you've done your homework either, just you putting your beliefs in there, and assuming the evidence exists. I intend to keep studying, but that's just because I'm a history buff. If I ever come across any evidence to the contrary, I'll come back here and post about it. But frankly, I doubt I will find any.

Weren't you already warned about that, talking about stuff like the above?

Different context, Glenn. That was to do with rep, which is against TOS to discus in posts (as I later learned, hence the apology). Explaining that a post has been reported is (and correct me if I'm wrong on this, mods) not against the TOS from what I've read. Just thought I'd give you some idea what happened to your post, as you seemed unaware.

 

[jks9199]

Folks, discussing rep is against the Rules. Doing the "I'm going to tattle on you" stuff is just juvenile. The policy here is that we only VERY rarely discuss what happens to someone publicly. We'd kind of encourage users to follow that principle, too...

With that out of the way... I've got a TKD specific question. A friend of mine from high school spent some time in Korea, as his father was in the military and stationed there. He learned a form of taekwondo with some very significant differences from most of what we see here in the US. I'm kind of hoping I can get him to chime in and share some details -- but I've always been rather curious about how what he learned fits in with "other" TKD.

And, more generally, an observation about cross cultural communication and sharing... It's very seldom a one-way ticket. The Bando emblem features two crossed swords; one is the kukri, symbolizing the East, and the other is the Sword of Alexander (a Greek kopis style blade, honestly, rather similar to the kukri), to symbolize the West. The swords are crossed to show, in part, the way knowledge flows both ways. I suspect that Japanese, Thai, Chinese, Indian, and other arts influenced native Korean fighting. (Unless, of course, you accept Chiun's premise that everything else was copied and stolen from a certain North Korean village...) But I'm certain there were native Korean fighting traditions, which in turn influenced others including, I suspect, Japanese and Okinawan styles. I'm just not so certain any of the Korean traditions survived, at least in recognizable form.