Running the Forms in Reverse

[kenpo tiger]

As for running the forms in reverse, I remain interested in discussing why this differes from running them on both sides; I have my ideas, what are yours?

Well?

No one's attacking you personally now.

KT

 

[GAB]

Robert,
Again the mindless member of a cult is something that you are saying, not I.

Now at the time that I met EP the teachings he was doing was just not Kenpo, let us not forget that. And at the time it was considered a Cult (LDS) Lets not forget that, now it is just as solid as any Church, that survived as long as it has, and its way of thinking. Time heals all wounds.

If that is offensive I am sorry, to me it is pure as the driven snow. Are we saying that you can not relate something to a topic to disapprove its effectiveness? We need a new thread?

When speaking of EPAK we don't want to go back to Mitose because EP said it does not go there, come on, we are not that naive in this day and age are we?

Running in reverse is the same mentality as above mentioned, it was something to help the founder, not something that (my thoughts) is of use to continue the confusion of not knowing and continually teaching something new to confuse.

If I felt that it was productive like going from algebra to geometry to Pythagorean theory, or backward to each other to find the equation that gives the answer. But I don't feel that the time invested is as productive as what I explained to do. If the tools are not in the Dojo, to get the end results, then go somewhere else and find it.

If you were inferring that they are not there (bags and equipment shame on the instructor and the assistants) I would hope the student would be on a month to month lease and would leave at the end of the month.

But if they are on a long term lease and are not able to break it, shame on the school and on them.
See back to big business and not the ethics of teaching for the students but the ethics of teaching for the money and continuing to prolong the agony of indicision I see on so many posts, (does it really work?) If you don't think it works go somewhere you think it does.

If you are the Evangilist of Kenpo, then you think it works, if you are not of that mentality, maybe you don't think it works.

I see the new stream for quite a few of the Dojos are to imply God is taught there also. I have to tell you that is not a new concept, but it is not spoken much any more. So maybe we can say we are in a reverse state instead of going forward.

Is that a wrong analogy? Am I permitted that thought? I get into trouble with the EPAK group, did 40 years ago still do, guess that is why I am not a follower of EPAK.

Best thing is not to post on this board, EPAK that is. Regards, Gary

PS. If my answer should be, do I think they are an effective tool (Reverse methods) I guess I would just say, No. Why, because of my experience and the fact that I have been in hundreds of fights and various scuffles, but then that would be from a personal point of view and might lead to confrontation also. G.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Gary, It's interesting to read your comments. Leads me to believe that you have far more issues with the business structure of martial arts than you do with the concept of practicing forms in reverse. I do thank you for commenting on that.

As to whether reverse refers to doing right or left side, as opposed to starting at the end and working backward... I have the feeling that semantics has played a part in this discussion after reading that portion of Robertson's riposte to GAB.

So -- which of the two, if either, is a viable practice tool? KT

 

[GAB]

Hi KT. This is for you, then you will know me better, or not. G

Forms are formless and formlessness are forms. Awareness is most essential.

To study any martial art successfully you must be able to perform what you are practicing, not on your superior teacher (is your teacher to teach you), or are you just a tool for him/her to learn the art more?

To accomplish something in a few moves or are they there to teach you in as many moves as they think?
Will this goal save your life? By reversing the action would you be the teacher?
Because they are a black belt can they teach, How many hits in the neck and groin area will it take to take them out? (teacher)

Footwork is essential moving out of harms way, is one of the first I can think of. How about that, just stay out of harms way, can you do that?
Are you the victim or are you the attacker? Will reversing the situation help?

Is it a need to know tech, to confuse you? Or is it a needed (trick) move to counter the next move by them (attacker) if you miss on the first tech, to counter this next move to counter the fourth movement. To reverse that, will it help?

This is the art in a nutshell, get out of harms way and while doing that, take the necessary action to do it. By reversing that, will it help?

Motobu, a great fighter, had one kata many others had one kata, Think of that, one form with numerous techs to save you, practiced over and over.
(I know they taught more to their students).

Now they had conditioning, (my thoughts with the bags) push ups, sit ups etc. It is a Dojo, not a resort. Not a place to gather to talk about your wounds, but a place to practice what your teacher practiced and then taught you.

Forms, techs, exercise, movement, footwork, strikes, tricks, kicks below the waist. All very important.

Once taught do you need to learn more, maybe, maybe not.When taught do you go looking for trouble are do you learn to avoid it?

Is everyone on this board who they purport, LOL..

Why is this EPAK board so well monitered? Why do they go and run to a moderator when someone disagrees with them and then put a red mark on your name? Or you bring up something they are in their own mind insulted?

Is that how it is in the dojo. Good luck, if it is for you, you need to get a life and find a new dojo. Are you as humble as the next or are you arrogant

Do you sign a contract and pay money not to be taught a working system, within a few months and then work up to the next level of competence.

You are not instructed how to save your skin in a few months and have to wait till you are a black belt?

You are not learning enough so you need something to wonder about that will not help you in respects to what you are learning now? Find a new Dojo.

But see, that is my thoughts, do you try to win the arguement with big words or fancy footwork, both are necessary in the real world but the real word is just a warrior fantasy and in the dojo it shoud be the same. I don't think so.

Does your teacher have to be the best, or do you do the best you can be, then learn more from them, is your teacher good for you?

Is it a nice work place? Do you have the desire to learn or are you just there because of desire? Are you there because you are fearful and need to feel more secure? Will they be able to instill security, or will you still be fearful?

Are you somebody who buys DVDs and then tries to work with them, do you work in your garage, or with others to test your skills, are you a learner or the learned.

I hope you are happy with what you are doing and not worrying if you are getting your monies worth. Why learn to kill when you are still not taught to defend with empty hands? Should you use a knife, can you use a knife?

Why are you on this board? to learn, who are you learning from?
Are they who they purport. Do they make smart remarks and find fault with your spelling or the fact that you have a typeo. By reversing that tactic will it help?

Should you wait till level four to learn how to strike nerve areas? Should you strike to kill? Do you have the right to kill? Do you want to be a forms expert or a fighter? Do you have the mentality to kill? Do you need to kill, do you want to hurt just to be able to do it? Buy a gun become proficient. By reversing that will it help?

It is in your court, no one else will experience the indecision or the fear when the time comes to practice what you are learning, hope you are in the right Martial Art.

Ok, does that help?
Regards, Gary

 

[Rob Broad]

I often run the forms and sets backwards. Ifound that doing so has helped me find hole in my motion, and improved my timing.

 

[rmcrobertson]

You're buying into the whole Choki Motubu deal and you have the gall to complain about people in kenpo being in a cult?

Looks like we need to start the "cult of no cult," thread, parallel to the "fetishization of the system of no system," cult."

Dude, my teachers (who have always been in an excellent position to know) have always been clear about their experience with Mr. Parker, as a brilliant martial artist and human being alike. And personally, I believe I can honestly and reliably tell you that my own intellectual training affords a fairly-profound analysis of these sorts of situations. Again--avoid teaching your grandma how to suck eggs.

As for your last post--let me note, as a composition teacher, that speling is very much not the issue. The recitation of empty generalities is; you operate off an assumption that nobody every done thought of footwork that is very far from the reality, for example. Kicks below the waist? Well, I'll be damned. never done thought of thet. (Well, actually, one of my most famous remarks around the ol' studio is..."C'mahn! This is kenpo!! A day without a groin kick is like a day without sunshine!! Ladies!!! God may have made men bigger, but he also left them with a handle!!! C'mahn!!!! Works on boys, works on girls!!!!!")

Again: eggs....grandma...grandma....eggs....avoid. But Grandpa's huevos...different story.

geez louise.

As for the whole left side vs. reverse stuff...here's my take. They might seem to be the same busy work...but to me, being able to run reverses is essential to comprehension, while chasing perfect symmetry is a mirror-stage illusion.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Hi KT. This is for you, then you will know me better, or not. G

Forms are formless and formlessness are forms. Awareness is most essential.

To study any martial art successfully you must be able to perform what you are practicing, not on your superior teacher (is your teacher to teach you), or are you just a tool for him/her to learn the art more?

To accomplish something in a few moves or are they there to teach you in as many moves as they think?
Will this goal save your life? By reversing the action would you be the teacher?
Because they are a black belt can they teach, How many hits in the neck and groin area will it take to take them out? (teacher)

Footwork is essential moving out of harms way, is one of the first I can think of. How about that, just stay out of harms way, can you do that?
Are you the victim or are you the attacker? Will reversing the situation help?

Is it a need to know tech, to confuse you? Or is it a needed (trick) move to counter the next move by them (attacker) if you miss on the first tech, to counter this next move to counter the fourth movement. To reverse that, will it help?

This is the art in a nutshell, get out of harms way and while doing that, take the necessary action to do it. By reversing that, will it help?

Motobu, a great fighter, had one kata many others had one kata, Think of that, one form with numerous techs to save you, practiced over and over.
(I know they taught more to their students).

Now they had conditioning, (my thoughts with the bags) push ups, sit ups etc. It is a Dojo, not a resort. Not a place to gather to talk about your wounds, but a place to practice what your teacher practiced and then taught you.

Forms, techs, exercise, movement, footwork, strikes, tricks, kicks below the waist. All very important.

Once taught do you need to learn more, maybe, maybe not.When taught do you go looking for trouble are do you learn to avoid it?

Is everyone on this board who they purport, LOL..

Why is this EPAK board so well monitered? Why do they go and run to a moderator when someone disagrees with them and then put a red mark on your name? Or you bring up something they are in their own mind insulted?

Is that how it is in the dojo. Good luck, if it is for you, you need to get a life and find a new dojo. Are you as humble as the next or are you arrogant

Do you sign a contract and pay money not to be taught a working system, within a few months and then work up to the next level of competence.

You are not instructed how to save your skin in a few months and have to wait till you are a black belt?

You are not learning enough so you need something to wonder about that will not help you in respects to what you are learning now? Find a new Dojo.

But see, that is my thoughts, do you try to win the arguement with big words or fancy footwork, both are necessary in the real world but the real word is just a warrior fantasy and in the dojo it shoud be the same. I don't think so.

Does your teacher have to be the best, or do you do the best you can be, then learn more from them, is your teacher good for you?

Is it a nice work place? Do you have the desire to learn or are you just there because of desire? Are you there because you are fearful and need to feel more secure? Will they be able to instill security, or will you still be fearful?

Are you somebody who buys DVDs and then tries to work with them, do you work in your garage, or with others to test your skills, are you a learner or the learned.

I hope you are happy with what you are doing and not worrying if you are getting your monies worth. Why learn to kill when you are still not taught to defend with empty hands? Should you use a knife, can you use a knife?

Why are you on this board? to learn, who are you learning from?
Are they who they purport. Do they make smart remarks and find fault with your spelling or the fact that you have a typeo. By reversing that tactic will it help?

Should you wait till level four to learn how to strike nerve areas? Should you strike to kill? Do you have the right to kill? Do you want to be a forms expert or a fighter? Do you have the mentality to kill? Do you need to kill, do you want to hurt just to be able to do it? Buy a gun become proficient. By reversing that will it help?

It is in your court, no one else will experience the indecision or the fear when the time comes to practice what you are learning, hope you are in the right Martial Art.

Ok, does that help?
Regards, Gary

Gary,
Yes, I think that your comments do give some insight into who you are as a martial artist. You also touch upon many things which I have questioned in the past (and some I still do).

I will tell you I was banished from my first school (and yes, banished is the word) because I had the audacity to question my teacher, his teaching methods, and also because I objected to his allowing his personal (and sex) life into the dojo and told him so.

For the longest time I thought it was me. It wasn't, and it still isn't.

I am fortunate to be training with a kenpoist who isn't as rigid as some who post to this board. In fact, he is the first to tell me not to take seriously most of what I read on the boards - and he himself will not participate in a forum like this.

As to doing forms in reverse - or techniques or any other part of kenpo or any other martial art, as I stated earlier, it's a learning tool for me. I don't ALWAYS do it, but there are times I will play with the forms I know to see what else I can do with the movements. When required to show the form, such as in a test situation, I will do it as I was taught -- but that's not required at this point in my training. Our instructor encourages experimentation because he takes seriously Mr. Parker's statement that techs are ideas - and what are forms but techs and pieces of techs held together with transitional movements.

What you posted tells me you think about what you're doing to the point of utilizing what you know in a practical manner. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Now to read Robertson's post. KT

 

[kenpo tiger]

Robertson said: As for the whole left side vs. reverse stuff...here's my take. They might seem to be the same busy work...but to me, being able to run reverses is essential to comprehension, while chasing perfect symmetry is a mirror-stage illusion.

*sound of tiger paws clapping*
I agree with you. I know that there is a separate thread which speaks to mirroring, but I am compelled to comment here. I believe that the reason our instructor requires knowing the techs both left- and right-sided is for practical self-defense reasons, and to increase our understanding of the mechanics. Some techs work differently to the left than to the right - or they don't work at all in an efficient manner. Similarly, there are techs or pieces of techs imbedded in the forms, and mirroring the techs outside of the forms as practice only enhances, to my way of thinking, one's understanding, performance, and interpretation of the form.

Parlor tricks? Perhaps. You're entitled to your opinion, as we all are. (Even Gary!) KT

 

[GAB]

Hi RmcR,

I didn't mention Motobu because I think his way, is the way, I was just mentioning him because he is in a world to himself, Patrick McCarthy just finished a translation on Motobu's book, I just read it and felt that was a person that was not close to kenpo, and it would not spur such results as I anticipated on other persons I might have come up with.
You talk like you are not the one, everyone reads like a book, first mistake.

Put out the bait and grabbed it hook line and sinker, now go back and complain that I am picking on you after that vocal diatribe, does not hurt me in the least and if you feel better, so much the better.

I was relating to KT if you will read the header.
I think it is fine that you are relating like you are, still goes to show even well learned people can make a mistake once in awhile.

As far as both sides I am an advocate of that, very much so. But please excuse me if I do it the way I would, and not the way you would.

I thought I made it very clear in my post about the bags and the foot work, an awful lot of the abilities are to be able to counter with out being touched, comes in with footwork I was just explaining my thoughts on the importance of it.

You mean you do footwork also, strike and blocks well I was sure caught off guard with that one.
As for groin shots, when they are not something that is to be done and you want to partake of the disaster that would follow, be my guest.
In the schools I have been involved in and the ones I am familiar with it is pretty rare that it is done, no reason, nothing to be gained.

Usually it is a cheap shot, and that is not why we are there, we can see that it is the very essence of the cheap shot that might be done in a street brawl, so we will then have to be aware of the warrior fantasy that might occure.

I don't know of any event that allows it, so why would it be condoned in a decent Dojo. Plus talking injury for a long time.

You talk out of two side's of the mouth one minute you are saying, no injuries and the next is groin shots. Give me a break.

This is really getting good what other words of wisdom will I get to hear from you?

I would like to say you are right about the various motions and the ability to relate to them, and the fact that you can see if there is some type of flaw in the form or design, preping for the fight that you won't know is coming or from where.

I think I would consider that an appropriate thought, after I worked out and was relaxing and trying to adjust my game plan, the word conceptualize is one that comes to mind. But to reiterate, I would not spend much time trying to confuse myself for the sake of confusion.
Not Unless I had nothing else to do, which is never.
By the way forms etc. is right out of Kosho Rye Kempo thinking.
I also think EP was a great Martial Artist, so was Mitose, they had a lot in common, more then you think.

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

Hi KT,
Banished is a word that I am familiar with. You can be proud that you are able to stick up and don't ever give that up. Sometimes you will be the one who is being taught, but you are the one that is the teacher.

We are our own teachers, when we get taught by someone in the martial arts business it should be by our direction, it is the way that we are looking for, if it is not for you walk, it is the best thing that could have happened.

You might still be there, if it was not for the very thing that you were wanting to happen looking to happen, did happen. You manipulated it and therefore you were in charge. It does not seem like that at the time but it is very real believe me. You were the one and you should be proud (like I said before).

I have been in situations not of my choosing, if you are not in command even for the moment, you are then in a state of confusion. It is not something you want when you are trying to learn.

There is a learning process that is healthy and enjoyable and there are brainwashings that go on at the same time, these types of learning processes take years to undo. Some times it is decades.(brainwashing)

The saying about you can put the fight into the man but it is hard to take it out, or civilize him once he has been over the water (war).

It was a very important thing for most of the Japanese Masters not to reveal their treasured techniques to just anyone, they wanted to make sure it was not misused, or so they say.

We have a way of placing people on a pedestal, and then not able to catch up only because of our own insecurity. To be secure in ones self is a very good thing.
It is not the common it is the uncommon, unfortunately that is the truth.

I think you are very fortunate to have an instructor who is like that. I wish there were more out there.

Rigidity in martial arts was a prerequisite, but in a free country, freedom is what we have and we take it for granted, some want to give it up to easily.

It would be nice not to have to argue or fight over a topic on a board, but that is not realistic, if the persons were to meet in a room under good conditions they could discuss it very well most of the time even if they
agreed to disagree.

I have just recently come to the boards to pass some time and see whats going on in different styles.
What it shows me is I like my style (system), now I like to banter a little back and forth, it is not a big thing, its interesting to see what will be the next topic to bring flames.

What I find interesting is the amount of talk that is of a law breaking nature and then still having a self rightous attitude about the law breakers.

Funny Huh? Regards, Gary

 

[Seig]

I think it is a good idea I may play with at some point. I teach that three aspects of motion are forward, opposite, and reverse.

To address doing techs on opposite sides, as a teacher, for me it is wholly necessary. I am naturally left handed. For me to teach my predominantly right handed students, I must be able to do both sides of a technique. I do not understand how anyone can say that doing something that will build your understanding and coordination is not valuable.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I do not understand how anyone can say that doing something that will build your understanding and coordination is not valuable.

A very long time ago I thought the same way.

DarK LorD

 

[GAB]

Yep, my thoughts exactly, thanks for the input.
Regards, Gary

 

[kenpo tiger]

Hi KT,
Banished is a word that I am familiar with. You can be proud that you are able to stick up and don't ever give that up. Sometimes you will be the one who is being taught, but you are the one that is the teacher.

We are our own teachers, when we get taught by someone in the martial arts business it should be by our direction, it is the way that we are looking for, if it is not for you walk, it is the best thing that could have happened.

You might still be there, if it was not for the very thing that you were wanting to happen looking to happen, did happen. You manipulated it and therefore you were in charge. It does not seem like that at the time but it is very real believe me. You were the one and you should be proud (like I said before).

I have been in situations not of my choosing, if you are not in command even for the moment, you are then in a state of confusion. It is not something you want when you are trying to learn.

There is a learning process that is healthy and enjoyable and there are brainwashings that go on at the same time, these types of learning processes take years to undo. Some times it is decades.(brainwashing)

The saying about you can put the fight into the man but it is hard to take it out, or civilize him once he has been over the water (war).

It was a very important thing for most of the Japanese Masters not to reveal their treasured techniques to just anyone, they wanted to make sure it was not misused, or so they say.

We have a way of placing people on a pedestal, and then not able to catch up only because of our own insecurity. To be secure in ones self is a very good thing.
It is not the common it is the uncommon, unfortunately that is the truth.

I think you are very fortunate to have an instructor who is like that. I wish there were more out there.

Rigidity in martial arts was a prerequisite, but in a free country, freedom is what we have and we take it for granted, some want to give it up to easily.

It would be nice not to have to argue or fight over a topic on a board, but that is not realistic, if the persons were to meet in a room under good conditions they could discuss it very well most of the time even if they
agreed to disagree.

I have just recently come to the boards to pass some time and see whats going on in different styles.
What it shows me is I like my style (system), now I like to banter a little back and forth, it is not a big thing, its interesting to see what will be the next topic to bring flames.

What I find interesting is the amount of talk that is of a law breaking nature and then still having a self rightous attitude about the law breakers.

Funny Huh? Regards, Gary

Gary,

It did take me a long time to come to the realization that it was a good thing. I also came to realize that there were lots of positive things I took away from that school, McDojo-ish as it seems to me now:

1) I took my teacher's work ethic which he instilled in me prior to becoming an asshat (borrowed your word again, HHJH!). Practice practice practice.

2) I took the idea that just because I'm shorter and smaller doesn't mean I can't win a fight with good skill and technique.

3) Stances are very important. They are the base of whatever you attempt in martial arts. Practice practice practice.

4) Close is good; way inside is better (sparring - see #2).

5) Work the forms in reverse (starting at the end and working backward) to learn to "find" yourself at any given point in the form -- that way it doesn't become mechanical and look like it.

6) Robertson, this one's for you: Heel down in certain situations, heel up in others. Dependent upon stance.

7) And -- it's not a bad thing to question. Just because sensei says doesn't necessarily make it so every time. He's not Superman.

8) And, ultimately, the only one I compare myself to is me.

Thanks for your other observations as well. KT

 

[GAB]

Hi KT.

After reading quite a few of the posts that were on the subject and some off of the subject, I see that the word semantic and semantics (looked it up it for the s).

It is one letter different, other's, see it as a whole different meaning. Maybe it is, or not, is it questionable?

I think it is a good representation of the complexity of the written word and the interpretation of it. So with that thought. No one is always going to be on the same page.

Back to reverse motion and reverse forms.
You do the form and then you reverse and end up at the start? Correct? Or not?
If I was using a stick to do a 12 count from the top down, would I then reverse it and go from the bottom up?

I believe reverse motion is not reversing your form or mirroring which some have said is the same, I don't believe it is, since it is my thought that counts when I am typing, just as it is for the person responding.

Instead of a strike it is a grap and pull the person towards you?
Instead of moving in you move back and away?
Instead of a strike it is a block? or instead of a block it is a strike?

Maybe my thinking is to simplistic, or to put it in a different way.
As a group that took up lesser movements, so are you saying, you are
looking to get to more techs, like the ones in the Tracy system?

Maybe you are in need of the system of sticks to be able to use both sides simultaneously, would you go to a different system or would you expect your GM to bring it to the system?

Is the system lacking or is it the student who is looking for more infromation?

If the system will not give until the student's have reached a certain level, can't they wait, or is the system deficient?

Maybe that is one of the reasons we see so many different branches on the tree since SGMEP died.

Some thoughts, maybe to aggravate or just to discuss cordially.

Regards, Gary

 

[rmcrobertson]

Forms, like language, have a certain structure--a grammar--to them. In English, reversing the grammar produces a partly-unintelligible "sentence."

But completely scrambling the grammar produces a mostly-unintelligible sentence.

The same is pretty much true of a paragraph, or an essay, or a story--futz with the order of things and you lose a lot, scramble the order of things and you lose nearly everything.

Which suggests something about what forms teach, and why it is important to try to write in something-resembling intelligble sentences, even when we're trying to recoup our intellectual losses, or write insultingly, or disavow what we have just written.

Question is, do forms have the same sorts of logic and the same grammar as English?

 

[MisterMike]

Kenpo Forms are more like maps or encyclopedias.

Changing order in one form may alter what it teaches, but when overlaid on the other forms, you really mess things up.

 

[Goldendragon7]

A very long time ago I thought the same way.
DarK LorD

So are you saying that feeling has changed now or you still feel that way today?

:idunno:

 

[kenpo tiger]

Robertson and MisterMike,

I think it depends upon who's doing the form, don't you? We all have different ways of learning and practicing. I do what works for me -- and that may not work for anyone but me. KT

 

[MisterMike]

Robertson and MisterMike,

I think it depends upon who's doing the form, don't you? We all have different ways of learning and practicing. I do what works for me -- and that may not work for anyone but me. KT

I think it depends more on why someone is running a form.

With that, to each his own....untill they start teaching...