Run away from no-mask people

[JowGaWolf]

I'll try to see if I can find some more numbers on this one. Maybe one with a date

I wasn't too sure about this site before as I haven't used it before. I gave it a try an it still comes out close to what John Hopkins was reporting. Nice little site for Comparison. I'll probably use this site and just verify it with John Hopkins, the CDC, and WHO.
Source: Germany vs Sweden Coronavirus cases: day by day comparison

So as of today Germany went up a point in the death rate from 19 to 20. Sweden is at a 2.7% rate, which I learned from the news today (according to doctors who track virus updates), that measuring the Percentage for the death rate is not a good way to measure the death rate because it's a percentage of the total number of cases. The more cases you have the easier it is to get a low death rate percentage.

Soooo. I'm going to stick with the 100K mark. I'm not going to deal with the 1million mark that some people try to use. I don't think all of the medical sites that I get my sources from use 100K. Based on the chart above Germany is doing much better than Sweden. In terms of the death rage for every 100K people.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's selfish public behavior indeed.

Video #1. Now the world knows why the U.S. is in bad shape. The sad part is that there are a lot of people like him in the U.S. I work with one. He's a calmer version of that guy in the video, but he says some of the same thing. Always whining about a mask.

Video #2: " I have a breathing problem" That's some B.S. Most people who have breathing problems that bad are usually carrying around oxygen. My uncle had a breathing problem, he wore a mask. There's no way he in the world that he would have that much oxygen to argue. My uncle had a breathing problem. My uncle died from his breathing problem earlier this year. He didn't die from Covid-19. He died because he had a breathing problem. This is what people who have breathing problems look like.

With all of that yelling, she clearly didn't have a breathing problem. If she actually had a breathing problem, say asthma, her doctor would have told her to wear a mask because Covid would make her existing breathing problems worse.


Unfortunately there is a lot of that type of logic going around . This is what I hear on the East Coast USA

 

[Saheim]

You are basing your belief on mask vs breathing problem on a sample of one?

I can tell you YES the mask most definitely makes my asthma worse. I have to carry my inhaler on my person, if I am covering both my nose and my mouth (with a mask). If I am not wearing one, I can leave my inhaler in my bag.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No: The virus will spread anyway. Masks may slow it down a bit but not more than that. We've been wearing a mask for months already and the virus has kept spreading.

What matters is a good immune system.

The immune system isn't reliably much help against a new virus - it doesn't have the information to create antibodies before the virus load in the body gets too high and starts causing problems.

Masks make a big difference. I've been watching some studies of transmission, and they provide significant reduction in transmission in both directions, but more on the outgoing side. That means that if 30% aren't wearing masks, there's a non-zero number of those who are spreading the virus. And evidence strongly suggests SARS-COV2 is mostly super-spread, meaning most folks don't spread much, but a minority spread it incredibly effectively. You only need one of those in an area, not wearing a mask, to cause big problems.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

thats got an exhaust valve right on the front, im not sure how that stops covid from spreading, not such a good citizen ?

Those with exhaust valves may actually make it spread further, because of the way the air comes out of most of them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

More important, now? Nope, just as important as it ever was...... at making people FEEL safe.

Bottome line - when a virus can be transmitted, during the incubation period, and you are facing exponential spreading, there are really two option: (1) move out into the woods and avoid ever seeing another human (2) get exposed.

Herd immunity is the only real defense. But hey, I got no problem with folks wearing masks, rock on! They look so stylishly compliant.

Edit - if we were all "good citizens", we'd still be British colonies.

Ignore the science. That works.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

(1) Equivalent? No. Comparable? Absolutely.

(2) Inherently a bad thing? When done out of fear and blind faith, Absolutely!

As for what I follow or do not - I do not recognize a gvt as having any "authority" over how i care for my own safety. If I am not ACTIVELY interfering with someone else (no, breathing doesn't count). Then I consider laws pertaining to my activity illegitimate. I use the word "laws" loosely as there have been very few (if any) mask "laws" simply E.O.'s and "mandates" which is an even bigger abuse of "authority" as only the legislative branch has the power to create "law".

You potentially spreading a deadly virus is ABSOLUTELY actively interfereing with others. Period.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually I simply Googled it the number I got was 79k for 2017 and 22k for 2019.

Now couple that with that fact that I personally know people who had to get into a heated argument, with hospital staff, to avoid a "positive" result being put on their child's medical record PRIOR to the results coming back (which turned out NEGATIVE btw) and the "covid death" numbers start to make more sense.

Right now, a geezer with flu like symptoms dies, how do you think it gets logged? More numbers means more money.

If a business does not want me coming in without a mask, they have every right to require one, it is their business. On public property, if someone is concerned about my lack of a mask, they are welcome to take off running. Apparently, it works good, the OP hasn't gotten it yet (afaik).

COVID reported deaths are pretty well aligned (though a bit low) with the excess death rate since COVID came to the US. Are you asserting there's a different pandemic responsible for the excess death rate?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

At one of my jobs, I am required to wear a mask and social distance. Outside of work, I occasionally wear one (dependingon where I am shopping). Beyond that, I am not doing much. I don't get too close to folks anyway and practice good hygien. I am pretty durable, I will roll the dice. Plus, my doctor is pretty sure I have already had it once and was fine. YMMV

You are rolling the dice with others' lives. Not acceptable behavior.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Saheim.
I'm basing my statements of mask vs breathing based on what doctors say, which is echoed by the video, which is echoed by what I've seen in my home and with other people. Will there be exceptions? Yes. there always is. Very few things in life are 100% all the time.

When I had breathing problems, due to pollution, I would have similar Asthma symptoms, that feeling of not getting air was like drowning out of water. I always carried my inhaler with me and used it often, probably at least twice a day minimum. So the fact that you carry an inhaler with you doesn't mean much to me. I carried mine with me all the time in my 30's and that was before masks.

If your mask is triggering your asthma then I would recommend that you wear a mask that doesn't trigger your asthma. Not all masks are the same. I once got a bad box of max, that would make my throat and lung burn when I wore it. My wife had the same reaction. Instead of being an Anti-masker, I contributed what I was experiencing to crappy mask of low quality. So a bought a different brand and didn't have the same problem.

If your current mask is giving you problems, try a different mask. Especially if you are wearing the same mask and expecting things to get better by wearing that same mask. Not all masks are the same. An N-95 mask that is used with yard work and carpentry is more difficult to breath in than a surgical n-95 masks. Some of the cloth masks are easier to breath in, depending on the layers being used and how tight the weaving is.

From personal experience, where you live can be a big trigger of your Asthma. In the U.S. people in the city develop Asthma more than those who don't live in the city, due to the pollution. So while you may not be able to move from where you live, it's something to think about.

My breathing issues were so bad, that my doctors were 2 steps from diagnosing me as having COPD. It took 3 years for "normal breathing" to return. I used to live in a big city and over the years my breathing deteriorated. The only thing that made me move was asking a group of inner city kids how many had asthma. Most of them raised their hand. A custodian was walking by and he stuck his head in the room and said that he has it too. So I left the city.

I was fine after 3 years of breathing cleaner air. I no longer experience any of the breathing issues that I once had. I can literally run and do cardio until my muscles fail and I won't have breathing problems. I've just come to accept that sometimes where I live matters. There are certain parts of the U.S that are really bad for my breathing.

Just something to think about. Not saying you fall into that same category, but if you ever take a trip far from where you live and you notice a big positive change in your breathing then that may be the case.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You are rolling the dice with others' lives. Not acceptable behavior.

I agree with that completely. If people want to take a gamble with there health, then they should only do so when it only affect them.

I'm pretty sure no one wants me to sit next to them when I prove that I can hold a grenade in my hand so tight that I can suppress the explosion completely. It's one thing if my actions only affect me. But it's totally different when my action may cause injury or death to others around me. Covid-19 is just like that. If I'm wrong and I'm around others, then others will be negatively affected by my actions.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is what the CDC and doctors say about masks.
Should People With Asthma Wear Face Coverings or Masks?
“For people with very mild asthma or well-controlled asthma, it’s probably not going to be an issue,” said Dr. David Stukus, member of the Medical Scientific Council for the Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America (AAFA). “For people who have very severe disease and have frequent exacerbations, ER visits, hospitalizations, require lots of medications and frequent symptoms, it might cause more issues for those folks.”
Source: Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America

"In partnership with pulmonologists from Michigan Medicine, the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services (MDHHS) Asthma Program would like to help promote mask use for people with asthma. In the general media, there has been an upswing in information stating that people with asthma can’t or shouldn’t wear masks. This is not true as an absolute statement, and we offer the following information to help inform the public and health care providers about mask use for people with asthma or any severe lung disease."
Source: Michigan Medicine University of Michigan.

" All of the major medical associations who care for patients with asthma have issued a joint statement saying that people with asthma and other severe lung diseases should wear masks to help prevent the spread of COVID-19, along with practicing physical distancing and washing their hands frequently. People with asthma who are not actively having an asthma attack can breathe through a cloth or standard medical masks without difficulty when inactive or doing light physical activity, such as walking. The gaps between mask fibers and around the edges of the mask allow for sufficient airflow so that there is no risk of buildup of carbon dioxide or deficiency in oxygen. During the pandemic, people who are actively having breathing problems should stay at home except to seek medical care, and when seeking medical care, should follow the masking guidelines of their medical provider."
Source: Michigan Medicine University of Michigan.

"
Follow your Asthma Action Plan

• Keep your asthma under control by following your asthma action plan.
• Avoid your asthma triggers.
• Continue current medications, including any inhalers with steroids in them (“steroids” is another word for corticosteroids). Know how to use your inhaler.
• Do not stop any medications or change your asthma treatment plan without talking to your healthcare provider.
• Talk to your healthcare provider, insurer, and pharmacist about creating an emergency supply of prescription medications, such as asthma inhalers. Make sure that you have 30 days of non-prescription medications and supplies on hand in case you need to stay home for a long time.
• Take steps to help yourself cope with stress and anxiety.
• As more cases of COVID-19 are discovered and our communities take action to combat the spread of disease, it is natural for some people to feel concerned or stressed. Strong emotions can trigger an asthma attack.
• For information on administering asthma medication in schools, visit K-12 Schools and Child Care Programs.

Source: CDC: Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Now if someone wants to disagree with me. then all I can say is Email these professionals and tell them that they are wrong.

 

[Saheim]

JowGaWolf -

I appreciate the long, informative post. Sincerely. It obviously comes from a desire to be helpful. You're sharing your experiences and suggesting how they might apply to mine, for the purpose of helping. Noble, really, I respect and appreciate that effort.

That said, I do not plan on posting in this thread anymore. We have reached an impasse. I will never agree that anyone has the right to tell me I must cover my nose and mouth (other than on THEIR property) and many of you will never agree that I have every right to choose what I wear or do not.

That is just where we are at. Nothing will be accomplished by pushing further, so I will not. We all do what we feel we must.

 

[jobo]

I agree with that completely. If people want to take a gamble with there health, then they should only do so when it only affect them.

I'm pretty sure no one wants me to sit next to them when I prove that I can hold a grenade in my hand so tight that I can suppress the explosion completely. It's one thing if my actions only affect me. But it's totally different when my action may cause injury or death to others around me. Covid-19 is just like that. If I'm wrong and I'm around others, then others will be negatively affected by my actions.

but people can choose, not to sit next to you, with a granade or with out a mask,

i wint down to my bar yesterday, which is doiing take outs only, my ussual mo is to get a cofee and sit outside and chat to people, now there are no tables, so me and the ussual sisp4cts all sat on a bench and chatted, some guy on the bench already, packed up and left, thats him taking personal responsibility,

nb the law only says no tables, i went to another bar today, where they have removed the tables and left the chairs, good thibking i say

 

[Steve]

JowGaWolf -

I appreciate the long, informative post. Sincerely. It obviously comes from a desire to be helpful. You're sharing your experiences and suggesting how they might apply to mine, for the purpose of helping. Noble, really, I respect and appreciate that effort.

That said, I do not plan on posting in this thread anymore. We have reached an impasse. I will never agree that anyone has the right to tell me I must cover my nose and mouth (other than on THEIR property) and many of you will never agree that I have every right to choose what I wear or do not.

That is just where we are at. Nothing will be accomplished by pushing further, so I will not. We all do what we feel we must.

To be clear, I think you have every right to wear a mask or not, but you are not protected from the consequences of your actions, whether they are social or legal. You don't have a right to walk around without a mask in a business that mandates them, and still patronize that business. If you attempt to do so, they have the right to show you the door. If there are fines or other civil penalties involved, you can certainly choose not to wear a mask, but that doesn't protect you from the fines you may incur. If you are a business owner and choose not to enforce regulations requiring masks, that is your right. But you should be prepared to accept the consequences for your actions.

In the same way, you have the right to not wear a seatbelt or to not observe the speed limit. Just don't act like a baby when you are called on it and held accountable.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

To be clear, I think you have every right to wear a mask or not, but you are not protected from the consequences of your actions, whether they are social or legal. You don't have a right to walk around without a mask in a business that mandates them, and still patronize that business. If you attempt to do so, they have the right to show you the door. If there are fines or other civil penalties involved, you can certainly choose not to wear a mask, but that doesn't protect you from the fines you may incur. If you are a business owner and choose not to enforce regulations requiring masks, that is your right. But you should be prepared to accept the consequences for your actions.

In the same way, you have the right to not wear a seatbelt or to not observe the speed limit. Just don't act like a baby when you are called on it and held accountable.

I dont know if there is a legal precident about clothing or face coverings for buisnesses. ie forcing somone to wear X clothing to shop there.

For what i mean there is, its legally mandated here for buisnesses to require it, but if that requirement is dropped from the law if they still mandate are there any protections for it? I dont know, i think banning on clothing is deemed a really petty thing that no one has actually done it. (could pull the relgious card, they cant deny you here for public access shops, so pull the mask coverings are against your religion)

This is more of a curio if anyone is up on case law for it. If anything there is more protections for wearing say religious clothing etc, than lack of clothing.

 

[jobo]

I dont know if there is a legal precident about clothing or face coverings for buisnesses. ie forcing somone to wear X clothing to shop there.

For what i mean there is, its legally mandated here for buisnesses to require it, but if that requirement is dropped from the law if they still mandate are there any protections for it? I dont know, i think banning on clothing is deemed a really petty thing that no one has actually done it. (could pull the relgious card, they cant deny you here for public access shops, so pull the mask coverings are against your religion)

This is more of a curio if anyone is up on case law for it. If anything there is more protections for wearing say religious clothing etc, than lack of clothing.

there is no legal mandate in the uk for burssness to mandate or enfoce face covering, with the possible exception of pubs, ive told you this last time you said it

 

[Steve]

I dont know if there is a legal precident about clothing or face coverings for buisnesses. ie forcing somone to wear X clothing to shop there.

For what i mean there is, its legally mandated here for buisnesses to require it, but if that requirement is dropped from the law if they still mandate are there any protections for it? I dont know, i think banning on clothing is deemed a really petty thing that no one has actually done it. (could pull the relgious card, they cant deny you here for public access shops, so pull the mask coverings are against your religion)

This is more of a curio if anyone is up on case law for it. If anything there is more protections for wearing say religious clothing etc, than lack of clothing.

No Shirt, No Mask, No Service? - FindLaw

I've said this before, as have others, but as long as the store isn't discriminating based on a protected base, they are 100% within their rights to show you the door.

Just to take this further down the logical chain, since we're talking about "rights." You have the right to not wear a mask, but that doesn't protect you from the consequences of not wearing a mask, which could include not being able to by your toilet paper or coffee at the grocery store. In turn, by denying you access to the store (which is the business owner's/manager's rights), you have the right to shop elsewhere. Everyone has to be accountable for their choices.

 

[Steve]

I dont know if there is a legal precident about clothing or face coverings for buisnesses. ie forcing somone to wear X clothing to shop there.

For what i mean there is, its legally mandated here for buisnesses to require it, but if that requirement is dropped from the law if they still mandate are there any protections for it? I dont know, i think banning on clothing is deemed a really petty thing that no one has actually done it. (could pull the relgious card, they cant deny you here for public access shops, so pull the mask coverings are against your religion)

This is more of a curio if anyone is up on case law for it. If anything there is more protections for wearing say religious clothing etc, than lack of clothing.

The UK rules according to Face coverings: when to wear one, exemptions, and how to make your own

Looks like it's a civil penalty resulting in monetary fines. I don't know if a £100 is a big deal or not to you guys (it would be to me) but it can get expensive pretty quickly by doubling at each citation, up to £6,400. Yikes:


Enforcement measures for failing to comply with this law
Premises where face coverings are required should take reasonable steps to promote compliance with the law.

The police can take measures if members of the public do not comply with this law without a valid exemption and transport operators can deny access to their public transport services if a passenger is not wearing a face covering, or direct them to wear one or leave a service.

If necessary the police and Transport for London (TfL) officers have enforcement powers, including issuing fines of £200 (reduced to £100 if paid within 14 days) for the first offence.

Repeat offenders receiving fines on public transport or in an indoor setting will have their fines doubled at each offence.

After the first offence there will be no discount. For example, receiving a second fine will amount to £400 and a third fine will be £800, up to a maximum value of £6,400.

 

[dvcochran]

I seems some people are completely missing the realistic and practical business matters in all this. By all means a business is within their rights to deny service to anyone for a plethora of reasons, masks being one of many. However, to what end? How strong and long can these actions be against something that is debatable at best and political at worst?
Businesses are already taking an extreme economic hit from all of this. By in large they welcome Any business. Naturally a prudent business owner is going to monitor and remedy any serious infraction (someone appearing sick, being adversarial about wearing/not wearing a mask, etc...). But this idea that the onus is on the business owner it wrong and just does not work. And to compound this by trying to plant the idea that this is okay thinking is also wrong. Why are you advocating More government control? Do you want the guy selling you 'widgets' to have that kind of control over your actions? Do you as a sentient not think for yourself and use caution when caution is due? If you do not want to go buy a 'widget' don't do it. If you need a 'widget' and feel the need, mask up and go. Quit worrying about what everyone else is doing. Silly hall monitor mentality.

You want to talk about something that is easier controlled at the retail level? Distribution of consumables. The average Walmart knows from sales experience what their volume is on consumables is any given month. It is what they do. This is the easiest point of control to prevent glutting and over buying of certain products and greatly reduce the anxiety for many. Really, really common sense that seems to escape many people.
However, from the bean counter perspective I get it since this is the truest form of supply and demand. "Sell it while you have it".
From the manufacturing perspective this is maddening. You would be amazed at how wrong things can go very quickly when trying to manufacture a product beyond the capabilities of the equipment and people making it. I have seen this over and over, and over, and over.

So setting on your high horse and saying any and everything is someone else's responsibility is just very sad and pathetic. And with your apparent level of life experience I would think you see this better. Even non profits have to have at the very least a zero balance sheet. How do you think for profit businesses will ever survive with the mentality you mention?