Struggling to keep things neutral....

[Flying Crane]

As I stated in the other thread, there are facts, and opinions based on those facts. The fact is the disease is far less morbid than originally thought. That fact has been interpreted in very different ways.

I've provided sources, they've been rejected. I've provided interpretations of the facts, they've been mocked.

When my facts and logics are dismissed, what am I left with? All I got are insults. And why do you deserve any less, if all you've done is dismiss my sources and pretend they don't exist, and then mock me for my beliefs?

You don't want to read my sources or the facts I provide? Fine. But then why should I listen to yours?

The facts are that the healthcare system of NYC was overwhelmed by this virus and they were stacking bodies like cord wood. There is nothing to suggest that cannot happen everywhere. Nothing at all. And a whole lot to suggest that it will IF we let it.

Seriously, how difficult, how onerous, is it to wear a mask and keep a distance from people? How onerous is it to avoid activities that would violate those two simple things? You want more freedom to move around and open the economy? Then follow these two very easy steps and encourage others to do so as well.

 

[skribs]

Its far less morbid than some thought and far more than others thought.

And you're the one calling people sheep, immature teenagers and insulting them for their viewpoints on this. But complaining that you're the one being mocked.

This conversation has spanned multiple threads. I was mocked before I started calling them sheep.

They rejected my data before I called them immature.

Causality isn't your stong suit, is it?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This conversation has spanned multiple threads. I was mocked before I started calling them sheep.

They rejected my data before I called them immature.

Causality isn't your stong suit, is it?

And here's another instance of you mocking someone. Meanwhile I have not rejected any data that you provided. I've mostly stayed out of the conversation after a bit considering the people I know who have died from it making it emotional for me.

 

[skribs]

And here's another instance of you mocking someone. Meanwhile I have not rejected any data that you provided. I've mostly stayed out of the conversation after a bit considering the people I know who have died from it making it emotional for me.

And this isn't emotional for me?

 

[skribs]

The facts are that the healthcare system of NYC was overwhelmed by this virus and they were stacking bodies like cord wood. There is nothing to suggest that cannot happen everywhere. Nothing at all. And a whole lot to suggest that it will IF we let it.

Seriously, how difficult, how onerous, is it to wear a mask and keep a distance from people? How onerous is it to avoid activities that would violate those two simple things? You want more freedom to move around and open the economy? Then follow these two very easy steps and encourage others to do so as well.

I should let you know, I've put you on ignore.

There's another person in this thread I would put on ignore if they weren't a moderator.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's my point. People are ignoring the risks of staying closed.

To say they're less than reopening based on your opinion is fine. To say they don't exist or don't matter is stupid.

Nobody is ignoring it. However, I am making a calculation that broke or bankrupt is better than dead. It is better than my wife being dead or my son being dead or my sister-in-law being dead. Those are the people in my immediate household. It’s also better than unwittingly spreading the virus to someone I don’t even know, who ends up dead and/or spreads if farther yet. Because that is a two-way street. Someone we don’t know could unwittingly spread the virus to us, and we end up dead. See how that works? We actually do all need to look out for each other in this.

I’ve been working in retail lately, it’s a job transition as i figure out a new professional direction to follow. The retail store I’ve been working in is part of a big corporation. They have been evaluating the situation and are looking to reopen the store soon, if possible. I’ve been in touch with a member of their Covid response team.

I wanted to know if all employees would be tested for Covid when we return to work, and how often thereafter. They have no intention of doing that.

I wanted to know how they planned to help the employees quarantine away from home to protect the families, in the eventuality that we discover we have been exposed to Covid, or in fact become sick with Covid. They have no intention of doing that.

I asked if the company, or workers comp insurance, would cover all medical expenses including hospitalization, and including funeral if necessary, if we get sick while working in the store. They have no intentions of doing that.

I am a part-time employee. I earn a little bit above minimum wage with them. That is simply my reality for now, as I recently moved into this area and have been looking for more steady employment, when Covid hit and fouled everything up. The company has not yet decided to open my store, but they are giving it the eye. But they want me to go to work for part-time hours to earn a bit above minimum wage, to try and sell a few units and help the corporation be successful. I would be putting myself on the line, dealing with the general public. While they would enact a policy of limiting the number of customers in the store at one time, they would not mandate a mask policy for customers. So we would be at the mercy of the customers’ willingness to wear a mask which, given the trends I am personally observing in my area, i wouldn't hold my breath over.

So I am expected to take the risk for low wages to sell non-urgent luxury products, and the company is willing to do next to nothing to protect me or protect my family if/when I am exposed to Covid or actually contract Covid. You can be assured that I expressed my difference of opinion with their vision, with the corporation’s representative.

Once again, being broke is better than being dead.

I am looking for other work that would have less danger of exposure to the public. So far nothing has come through and I expect competition to be fairly heavy right now. But there are certainly businesses that probably cannot safely reopen and follow the two simple measures of maintaining social distancing and wearing masks. Those businesses should not be opening. My current retail employer in my opinion, should not be trying to reopen now.

But this is a calculation and decision based on what is least harmful. And broke is better than dead. And broke is better than killing someone else.

 

[Flying Crane]

I should let you know, I've put you on ignore.

There's another person in this thread I would put on ignore if they weren't a moderator.

My heart is broken.

 

[jobo]

Nobody is ignoring it. However, I am making a calculation that broke or bankrupt is better than dead. It is better than my wife being dead or my son being dead or my sister-on-law being dead. Those are the people on my immediate household. It’s also better than unwittingly spreading the virus to someone I don’t even know, who ends up dead and/or spreads if farther yet. Because that is a two-way street. Someone we don’t know could unwittingly spread the virus to us, and we end up dead. See how that works? We actually do all need to look out for each other in this.

I’ve been working in retail lately, it’s a job transition as i figure out a new professional direction to follow. The retail store I’ve been working in is part of a big corporation. They have been evaluating the situation and are looking to reopen the store soon, if possible. I’ve been in touch with a member of their Covid response team.

I wanted to know if all employees would be tested for Covid when we return to work, and how often thereafter. They have no intention of doing that.

I wanted to know how they planned to help the employees quarantine away from home to protect the families, in the eventuality that we discover we have been exposed to Covid, or in fact become sick with Covid. They have no intention of doing that.

I asked if the company, or workers comp insurance, would cover all medical expenses including hospitalization, and including funeral if necessary, if we get sick while working in the store. They have no intentions of doing that.

I am a part-time employee. I earn a little bit above minimum wage with them. That is simply my reality for now, as I recently moved into this area and have been looking for more steady employment, when Covid hit and fouled everything up. The company has not yet decided to open my store, but they are giving it the eye. But they want me to go to work for part-time hours to earn a bit above minimum wage, to try and sell a few units and help the corporation be successful. I would be putting myself on the line, dealing with the general public. While they would enact a policy of limiting the number of customers in the store at one time, they would not mandate a mask policy for customers. So we would be at the mercy of the customers’ willingness to wear a mask which, given the trends I am personally observing in my area, i wouldn't hold my breath over.

So I am expected to take the risk for low wages to sell non-urgent luxury products, and the company is willing to do next to nothing to protect me or protect my family if/when I am exposed to Covid or actually contract Covid. You can be assured that I expressed my difference of opinion with their vision, with the corporation’s representative.

Once again, being broke is better than being dead.

I am looking for other work that would have less danger of exposure to the public. So far nothing has come through and I expect competition to be fairly heavy right now. But there are certainly businesses that probably cannot safely reopen and follow the two simple measures of maintaining social distancing and wearing masks. Those businesses should not be opening. My current retail employer in my opinion, should not be trying to reopen now.

But this is a calculation and decision based on what is least harmful. And broke is better than dead. And broke is better than killing someone else.

yea, im sure you would sooner live in poverty than be dead, however, id sooner not live in poverty and would happily risk your life for that not to happen, that then leaves the responsibility for your safety in your own hands, if that means you go and live alone in the woods, thats fine with me,,,, your poor and im not, we are both alive win win

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

And this isn't emotional for me?

I'm not saying it is or isn't. I was saying that you were mocking me, despite me not posting about it for a bit (and I also haven't read all the threads so I don't know what's been said on other threads, rather than not knowing how causality works).

But..in response to this-if you think your dojo not being open, and you having to put more work in at the dojo, is on the same level of emotional as people dying, there's a serious problem there.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You all are fine with the measures because it fits your beliefs that this disease is much more dangerous than the flu. I don't believe that.

That's OK. Science doesn't care if you believe in it.

 

[skribs]

I'm not saying it is or isn't. I was saying that you were mocking me, despite me not posting about it for a bit (and I also haven't read all the threads so I don't know what's been said on other threads, rather than not knowing how causality works).

But..in response to this-if you think your dojo not being open, and you having to put more work in at the dojo, is on the same level of emotional as people dying, there's a serious problem there.

That's not my only concern. Reducing this to my only concern shows a low level of understanding of my position. This is why I don't bother with serious discussion of this topic anymore. Y'all ain't gonna even give my points the time of day, so why make them?

 

[skribs]

That's OK. Science doesn't care if you believe in it.

Call your opinion science, to make mine seem less valid. Even though my opinion comes from the doctors that I know and trust.

You call it science. It's politics. But calling it science makes it fact, and makes it easier to ignore all the other voices with a different opinion.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That's not my only concern. Reducing this to my only concern shows a low level of understanding of my position. This is why I don't bother with serious discussion of this topic anymore. Y'all ain't gonna even give my points the time of day, so why make them?

Thats the only point though that seems to be an emotional point for you.

 

[skribs]

Thats the only point though that seems to be an emotional point for you.

...really?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

...really?

Yes. Really. You're other points are defensive, but none of them seem to be emotional, and the dojo is what you keep continuously going back to.

 

[skribs]

Thats the only point though that seems to be an emotional point for you.

It's what was relevant to this thread.

I'm worried I will burn out. I'm worried I won't be effective in my duties because of burnout. I'm worried we will lose too many students for too long that the school goes under. I'm worried about the health of my students if they can't get as much exercise. I'm worried about their mental health if they can't socialize.

I'm also worried abiut my mental health and physical health if the school goes under. It's been a stabilizing force for both, and if it's gone, that's a huge blow.

I get that you know people who have died from this disease. I don't think that's likely to happen with my students, most of whom are kids. Those that are high risk should isolate, but those that are low risk shouldn't have to. I'm much more worried about my students suffering from childhood obesity or depression than COVID, because it's the more likely threat from too much isolation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's my point. People are ignoring the risks of staying closed.

To say they're less than reopening based on your opinion is fine. To say they don't exist or don't matter is stupid.

I’ve not heard anyone say there is no risk to staying closed. As I’ve pointed out, I’m a direct recipient of some of those risks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's what was relevant to this thread.

I'm worried I will burn out. I'm worried I won't be effective in my duties because of burnout. I'm worried we will lose too many students for too long that the school goes under. I'm worried about the health of my students if they can't get as much exercise. I'm worried about their mental health if they can't socialize.

I'm also worried abiut my mental health and physical health if the school goes under. It's been a stabilizing force for both, and if it's gone, that's a huge blow.

I get that you know people who have died from this disease. I don't think that's likely to happen with my students, most of whom are kids. Those that are high risk should isolate, but those that are low risk shouldn't have to. I'm much more worried about my students suffering from childhood obesity or depression than COVID, because it's the more likely threat from too much isolation.

This is an infectious disease. You can’t effectively isolate a small part of the population and control it. Nor are all low-risk people going unaffected. There are folks with no obvious risk factors who are dying. They are a small minority, but we can’t yet predict who they are (and aren’t).

 

[JowGaWolf]

Your argument basically boils down to the very self-centered political argument I see all the time. It fails to recognize the pros and cons of each position. It assumes you have all the pros and I have all the cons. You say there's only good things that can happen with your plan. That tells me you don't understand much about the situation.

Having ran a school from marketing, to teaching, to finding a place to train in, to paying rent. I'm not sure where you pick up this assumption. My statement simply reflects the current COVID-19 environment that we are in. The businesses that have struggled the most were ones that didn't have a way continue to do business online. That's just fact. That's not my opinion. If you think that the only way to learn or teach martial arts is to do it in person, then your school won't survive lock downs or layoffs where people have lost their jobs. If there's a time to be flexible now is the time.

Is the quality of instruction the same? Of course not and people understand that. But if people don't feel safe about being out and about training martial arts in a room where everyone is breathing heavy, then they aren't going to train in your school. As of such offer another option. My only thought process with this is business. Let another lock down happen in the fall and we'll see how well that in-person training works for you. You'll be sitting here in this group talking about in-person training and how the school can't survive. It's really simple, if your school cannot provide services in other methods other than in person training, then your school will suffer.

Playing by the rules and expectations of PRE-COVID-19 isn't going to work. There are churches who thought they were going to do that. You know what happened. Members got sick some died, and after they learned the hard lesson they determined that they were going to not meet in person which is what the health experts were trying to get the churches to do in the first place.

As a small business owner I have always followed the path of ENRICH YOUR SERVICES. If you don't know how to do that then you won't last long.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Let me put it another way. What if I were to say:

All of this extra caution is hurting businesses, especially small business (but some larger ones as well). This is wreaking havoc on our economy. But if I'm wrong, about COVID-19 being fake, at least the businesses will survive.

Notice how I completely disregarded your opinion? Notice how I completely disregarded the cons with my opinion and the pros with yours? This is how teenagers argue. I assumed you were more mature than that.

Still don't know what you are getting at here. I don't even see how that disregards anything I've stated.