How old is "Old" in the MAs?

[yak sao]

Geezer, you are defrinitely in the right MA for longevity.

Over the winter as you may remember, I went through a funk, asking myself why I was still doing MA after 28 years. Not so much that I was feeling incapable. I think it was kind of a miiddle aged MA crisis, where I came to the realization that I was over the hill and was never going to be as good as I had hoped.
After a few days of moping around I came to the conclusion that me at 47 practicing MA is better than me at 47 not practicing. So, Lord willing, I will be doing MA till I am old and gray.

And I ran across this saying recently..."getting older is unavoidable,
getting old is up to you"

Keep punching old timer!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm sorry I missed this.

I was studying how old a lot of these internal MA guys got but I don't have the list at home, it is at my office and I will post it tomorrow but right now, off the top of my head I can say

Wang Ji Wu- Xingyiquan died at 100
Sun Lutang - Xingyiquan/Bagua/Taiji died at 73
Yang Zhenduo is 83 and still with us

My Taiji sifu is 70 and complaining he is getting old because he can no longer lie on his back and hold his legs off the floor at a 30 degree angle for 15 minutes like he could when he was young....now he can only do 8 minutes. Based on that, even though I am in years much younger than him...I am a decrepit old man

 

[Stac3y]

At 65, my grandfather (who had already had 2 heart attacks and a bypass) could outwork my dad and uncles by about double.

I know a 60 year old who passed his first black belt test last fall.

I'm 41, and will test for my black belt next year. My conditioning is much better than most of the teenagers I train with. I plan on doing karate until I drop dead. My kicks may get lower as I age, and I may not be able to jump as high or as often, but I'll keep on with whatever I can.

 

[Xue Sheng]

All are Taijiquan, Baguazhang and Xingyiquan people

Li Cunyi 1874-1921 - 47
Cheng Ting Hua 1848-1900 - 52
Chen Youlong 1875-1928 - 53
Yang Chengfu 1883-1936 - 53
Yang Banhou 1837-1892 - 55
Dong Xiusheng 1882-1939 - 57
Tung Ying Chieh 1896-1961 - 65
Yang Shaohou 1862-1930 - 68
Liang Zhen Pu 1863-1932 - 69
Yin Fu 1840-1909 - 69
Chen Fake 1887-1957 - 70
liu qilan 1819-1889 - 70
Wu Kung-i 1900-1970 - 70
shang yunxiang 1864-1937 - 73
Yang Luchan 1799-1872 - 73
Sun Lutang 1860-1933 - 73
Yang Shou Zhong 1911-1986 - 75
Zhu Guofu 1891-1968 - 77
Ji Jike 1602-1680 - 78
Yang Jianhou 1839-1917 - 78
Chen Zhaopi 1893-1972 - 79
Chen Wangting 1600-1680 - 80
Fu Zhensong 1872-1953 - 81
Jiang Rong Qiao 1890-1971 - 81
li feiyu 1809-1890 - 81
guo yunshen 1820-1901 - 81
Chen Changxing 1771-1853 - 82
Liu Yunqiao 1909-1992 - 83
Lu Shuitian 1894-1978 - 84
Dong Haichuan 1797-1882 - 85
Gao Yisheng 1866-1951 - 85
Zhang Zhaodong 1853-1938 - 85
Zheng Huaixian 1896-1981 - 85
Liang Kequan 1918-2003 - 85
Yang Zhen Ji 1921-2008 - 87
Wang Fu 1919-2007 - 88
dai longbang 1713-1802 - 89
Fu Zhongwen 1903-1994 - 91
Wu Dianke 1911-2003 - 92
Li Ziming 1900-1993 - 93
Wang Ji Wu 1891-1991 - 100

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I think the average age of Taiji,Bagua,Xingyi is:76(based on Xue's list)

I think average for Karate is:76 as well(based on 21 Karateka)

Judo I think is:78(based on 19 Judoka)

Aikido: 84.(based on 8 Aikidoka)

Jujutsu: 73(based on 8 Jujutsuka)
If there were more numbers with Aikido,Judo,Karate maybe it would round out closer to 76. But it seems to be an average of the mid 70's for martial arts both external and internal.

 

[geezer]

... it seems to be an average of the mid 70's for martial arts both external and internal.

Is that the age of the average "Grandmaster" or head of a system still teaching and practicing their art, or the age at which they kick the bucket?

If it's the latter, it doesn't speak too well of the MAs as a means of sustaining health and achieving longevity. My grandparents all lived a lot longer than that without doing anything unusual.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Is that the age of the average "Grandmaster" or head of a system still teaching and practicing their art, or the age at which they kick the bucket?

It is the average I found when figuring not only founders but also top students. Aikido still has top students alive so I did not figure them into it.
If there were more to work with then maybe the averages would be more accurate because I only spent about 30mins on it lol. But I think if more Aikidoka were factored in the average might come down in the mid 70's
And if more Jujutsuka were factored it might bring up the average to mid 70's.

If it's the latter, it doesn't speak too well of the MAs as a means of sustaining health and achieving longevity. My grandparents all lived a lot longer than that without doing anything unusual.

Looking at people with long life most did not do anything special a good amount of them smoked!!. Most did not take supplements,did not do exercise. The factor that most have in common is diet,stress coping methods,strong religious/friendship network,sense of humor.

Life expectancy in the 1800-1900 on average was about 40 we can say that Martial artist most likely lived longer than the average person due to exercise,mediation,diet were the average person most likey did not practice these methods.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Is that the age of the average "Grandmaster" or head of a system still teaching and practicing their art, or the age at which they kick the bucket?

If it's the latter, it doesn't speak too well of the MAs as a means of sustaining health and achieving longevity. My grandparents all lived a lot longer than that without doing anything unusual.

Some things to consider; The ages that I gave are the ages they died but not the reasons they died and you also need to look at the era in which they lived and the living conditions of the time and in the case of Cheng Ting Hua, who was a rather skilled Bagua person and was apparently proving it right up to the end when the German soldiers shot him because the couldn't defeat him otherwise. This was during the boxer rebellion so he obviously died much sooner than he would have naturally and with that in mind it is possible that more than just Cheng Ting Hua died an unnatural death.

Also these are just a few of the thousands of Neijia practitioners that lived in China and I have not yet got into the waijia people and that is the goal of what I was doing which was to compare the two. There were many others in China to actually know how much difference it makes. To really know that you have to compare the average life span of a martial artist of the time to the average life span of non-martial artists of the time. Look at Ip Man (1893 - 1972) he died at 79 when the average life expectancy in the US (not Hong Kong) was 65. Now what was the average life expectancy for a person in South China in the 1930s? I have no idea but I am guessing it is less than 70 and with all that in mind now look at the dates I posted

I do not believe that martial art training all by it self is a magic bullet to longevity. You also need to eat right, live a healthy life style and most of all have good genes.

 

[yak sao]

Is that the age of the average "Grandmaster" or head of a system still teaching and practicing their art, or the age at which they kick the bucket?

If it's the latter, it doesn't speak too well of the MAs as a means of sustaining health and achieving longevity. My grandparents all lived a lot longer than that without doing anything unusual.

George Burns was asked the secret to his long life. His answer : "If I knew I was going to live this long I would have taken better care of myself"

 

[ceaer]

I saw an interesting article adressing this question-- well not specifically in the MAs, but when does "old age" begin?
A survey of 3000 adults revealed that those 30 or younger thought you were old at 60; the overall average perception of "old age" was 68-- except among those 65 and older, who declared "old age" to start at 75.
That saying about "you're only as old as you feel" seems to be holding up, and the older people get, the greater the perception gap (a 50 year old on average feels 10 years younger than they are; a 75 year old on average feels 20 years younger).
The survey found that "Old age is always a little older than you are"-- most people, no matter their age, did not think that they were "old".
So, extrapolating that to this thread, as long as you're still physical capable of practicing the MAs, there is no old.

Link to the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/30/health/30aging.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

Hmmm... I'm gonna' take a guess and say dead is old in MAs, but then again I've never been able to train with someone that has died, so I maybe I'm wrong... I may die and find Odo Seikichi Sensei engaged in a friendly debate about cat stance vs. back stance with Funikoshi Sensei...