Revealing Fake Martial Arts

[Midnight-shadow]

Do you want to cite your sources for these 'histories'?

I wouldn't call them sources, just stuff I read on the internet from various websites. That's the problem with History, you can never really know what happened unless you saw it for yourself.

 

[Tez3]

I wouldn't call them sources, just stuff I read on the internet from various websites. That's the problem with History, you can never really know what happened unless you saw it for yourself.

No, not really, depending on the site you got it from there will most likely be an agenda to spin things or even make things up. If you have ever had to take witness statements you will know that even being there doesn't guarantee that you will find out what actually happened.
Many people will make up histories for their martial arts, if you are a serious historian like Chris Parker you will research, cross reference and go to sources that are contemporaneous that you know will give you as close an account as is possible. Reading on various random websites will not likely produce any true account or history. You have to look at sources in the original language, look at serious, respected in their field historians and martial artists in this case rather than believe tourist stories or 'click bait'
I can't verify this is the truth about MT but this is on one website Muay Thai History. This is on another Learn Muay Thai: Muay Thai History (Complete Version) as well as this History. Obviously people are just copying from other sites.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I wouldn't call them sources, just stuff I read on the internet from various websites. That's the problem with History, you can never really know what happened unless you saw it for yourself.

No, you cannot. However, there are sources and there are "sources"...

 

[mograph]

This was a reputable print source, if I recall. But, I suppose, like all reputable journals, we have to pay for it. Such is life.

Journal of Asian Martial Arts - Martial Arts Articles on Chinese, Japanese, Korean Martial Arts

 

[Steve]

For me, I don't care whether it's true or not, my criteria quite honestly is simple, can you fight? I don't care much for lineages, for me the proof is in the pudding so it's always going to be 'can you fight'?

I mostly agree with this, but would make it a little less specific. It isn't just fighting. Is there a clean line between what you think you're learning and what you are actually able to do? And further, can you demonstrate proficiency?

It's very easy for someone who trains in MMA to demonstrate that their training is effective. They are training for a specific goal: success in an MMA style format. They are able to test their proficiency: fighting in an MMA style format. In order to succeed in MMA, there are some pretty specific skills you will need. If you are not proficient with these skills, you will not be successful. There is a clear, direct path from training to application.

This clear, direct path is present in pretty much every other human activity, except "self defense" training or reality based MA. Proficiency is measured in application. Can you do it?

In self defense training or any MA training model that eschews competition, this goes out the window, and so things get complicated and murky. Because there is no actual application, there is no clear, direct path from training to application. Instead, we see attempts to measure the success of the process. We end up with essays and dissertations on the subject that talk about theory and try to overcome our intuitive mistrust in the training model. We start seeing threads that discuss words like faith and trust.

 

[pgsmith]

It's the highest enlisted rate in the US Navy, so there's lots of folks running around calling themselves Master Chief.

Sorry, but there is no way the fellow referred to in the OP is old enough to be a Navy E-9. Based on his posts in defense of what he's trying to do, he has not learned enough from his life experiences to be a Master Chief either.

Just my "fake" thoughts again.

 

[Flying Crane]

Chinese Martial Arts have a very interesting history. It Basically started out as a set of exercises used for fitness by Buddhist monks so that they could meditate for longer periods of time without their bodies suffering too much. Then after the Northern Shaolin monastery was ransacked by bandits, the monks turned those exercises into a fighting system, while at the same time learning how to use weapons in order to defend against them. Then in the 1900s, Martial Arts were banned in China and performance Wushu was developed. Now it is primarily used for fitness and performance, which is what it was originally used for.

First, Chinese martial arts did not originate at shaolin. The Chinese have been practicing martial methods way way before the Shaolin legend began, and all over China including in areas well distant from shaolin.

Second, the Damo legend of bringing exercises/martial arts to shaolin may, and definitely may NOT, have any historical accuracy.

Best to not cite any of that as gospel.

 

[Xue Sheng]

According to my research,......

Chinese Martial Arts have a very interesting history. It Basically started out as a set of exercises used for fitness by Buddhist monks so that they could meditate for longer periods of time without their bodies suffering too much. Then after the Northern Shaolin monastery was ransacked by bandits, the monks turned those exercises into a fighting system, while at the same time learning how to use weapons in order to defend against them. Then in the 1900s, Martial Arts were banned in China and performance Wushu was developed. Now it is primarily used for fitness and performance, which is what it was originally used for.

According to my research on Chinese Martial Arts your research is mostly wrong.

First, Chinese martial arts did not originate at shaolin. The Chinese have been practicing martial methods way way before the Shaolin legend began, and all over China including in areas well distant from shaolin.

Second, the Damo legend of bringing exercises/martial arts to shaolin may, and definitely may NOT, have any historical accuracy.

Best to not cite any of that as gospel.

Agreed

 

[Midnight-shadow]

According to my research on Chinese Martial Arts your research is mostly wrong.



Agreed

So, I have the word of one complete stranger on the internet (you) against another complete stranger on the internet (whoever wrote the websites I read the "false" information I am getting). Who do I trust? Now I remember why I stopped studying history in school, because nobody can agree on anything and you don't know who to trust.

 

[Steve]

So, I have the word of one complete stranger on the internet (you) against another complete stranger on the internet (whoever wrote the websites I read the "false" information I am getting). Who do I trust? Now I remember why I stopped studying history in school, because nobody can agree on anything and you don't know who to trust.

It's a pickle. But I think giving up is a bad option. Instead, why not do your own research?

 

[Midnight-shadow]

It's a pickle. But I think giving up is a bad option. Instead, why not do your own research?

I have been, but it seems that I've been reading the wrong sources.

History of Chinese martial arts - China culture
Perhaps this is a more accurate depiction of the history than I previously read?

 

[Tez3]

So, I have the word of one complete stranger on the internet (you) against another complete stranger on the internet (whoever wrote the websites I read the "false" information I am getting). Who do I trust? Now I remember why I stopped studying history in school, because nobody can agree on anything and you don't know who to trust.

I suppose that's better than believing everything but it's also extreme, you cannot stop studying something just because you think you can't believe it, that's just sheer laziness. Instead research properly and learn critical thinking. How to Study and Learn (Part One)

 

[RTKDCMB]

So, I have the word of one complete stranger on the internet (you) against another complete stranger on the internet (whoever wrote the websites I read the "false" information I am getting). Who do I trust? Now I remember why I stopped studying history in school, because nobody can agree on anything and you don't know who to trust.

Look for corroboration and check the facts. If what someone says is not supported by the facts then you know not to trust them completely.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So, I have the word of one complete stranger on the internet (you) against another complete stranger on the internet (whoever wrote the websites I read the "false" information I am getting). Who do I trust? Now I remember why I stopped studying history in school, because nobody can agree on anything and you don't know who to trust.

History of what?

As for your other link, I have not had time to read it, I will and respond.

But if it says all martial arts came from Shaolin then the article is also wrong.

Look at the history of Shuaijiao is all you need to prove that clam wrong

 

[mograph]

I've heard enough modern fabrications to realize how easy it is to blow things out of proportion, so when it comes to Martial Arts history, I look at it all as a collection of interesting stories. Maybe some of it is true, some of it isn't.

Personally, I'm more interested in the old instructional materials rather than the Feats of Strength or Ancient Lineage stuff. (shrug)

 

[Dirty Dog]

History of what?

As for your other link, I have not had time to read it, I will and respond.

But if it says all martial arts came from Shaolin then the article is also wrong.

Look at the history of Shuaijiao is all you need to prove that clam wrong

There' so much wrong or silliness out there...

One of our security guards informed me that he has a "first black" in Shaolin Kung Fu, and regaled me with an origin myth about how their founder was an orphan, abandoned by his parents because he was 'covered in hair, like a bear', adopted by Monks, but never "really" a monk. And how this allowed him to travel from one monastery to another and learn all different sorts of Kung Fu secrets, which he passed on to our guards instructor.
He seemed annoyed when I pointed out that TCMA doesn't have belt ranks. He got offended when I expressed skepticism about the "history" he reported.

 

[mograph]

When I was with a different group, I was told that the founder (a guy who died in the 1990s) could move his heart around inside the chest cavity!

As the story goes, he told doctors he could stop his heart. They listened with stethoscopes, and found they could no longer hear his heart! What did he do? He laughed, and said that nobody can stop their heart -- he just moved it out of the way so the scopes couldn't hear it beat!

Yup.

(By the way, if you put your ear anywhere on a person's torso, you can hear the heartbeat. I tested this with my wife.)

 

[Tez3]

(By the way, if you put your ear anywhere on a person's torso, you can hear the heartbeat. I tested this with my wife.)

Politicians excepted, they really don't have hearts nor do bankers, lawyers, tabloid journalists, Rupert Murdoch, Piers Morgan and estate agents.

 

[Xue Sheng]

When I was with a different group, I was told that the founder (a guy who died in the 1990s) could move his heart around inside the chest cavity!

As the story goes, he told doctors he could stop his heart. They listened with stethoscopes, and found they could no longer hear his heart! What did he do? He laughed, and said that nobody can stop their heart -- he just moved it out of the way so the scopes couldn't hear it beat!

Yup.

(By the way, if you put your ear anywhere on a person's torso, you can hear the heartbeat. I tested this with my wife.)

Could be why he died in 1990..moved his heart a little to much

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have been, but it seems that I've been reading the wrong sources.

History of Chinese martial arts - China culture
Perhaps this is a more accurate depiction of the history than I previously read?

Your Historical link

Much of this somewhat disjointed article is historically correctm but has little to do with your original post.

jiao di became juélì or jiǎolì which became Shuaijiao, none of that from Shaolin by the way

Kung Fu was never practiced in China until westerners miss understood what was being said. Wushu was practiced in China and Kung Fu is the "Hard Work" it takes to be good a Wushu

This bit is pure speculation as it applies to Tao Yin being a progenitor of Taijiquan, there is no historical proof of this and there is more than one historian in China that would be interested in this if it could be proven. But so far they cannot go much past the Chen family and the rest is speculation

Daoist practitioners have been practicing Tao Yin, physical exercises similar to Qigong that was one of the progenitors to Tai Chi Chuan, at least since as early as 500 BCE. In 39–92 CE

The date is actually 1899 to 1901 Boxer Rebellion and there is a bit more to it than this

In 1900-01, the Righteous and Harmonious Fists rose against foreign occupiers and Christian missionaries in China. Although this uprising, known in the West as the Boxer Rebellion due to the martial arts and calisthenics practiced by the rebels, originally opposed the Manchu Qing Dynasty, the Empress Dowager Cixi gained control of the rebellion and tried to use it against the foreign powers.

The following did happen, but...

Within China, the practice of traditional martial arts was discouraged during the turbulent years of the Chinese Cultural Revolution (1969–1976). Like many other aspects of traditional Chinese life, martial arts was subjected to a radical transformation by the People's Republic of China in order to align it with Maoist revolutionary doctrine. The PRC promoted the committee-regulated sport of Wushu as a replacement to independent schools of martial arts. This new competition sport was disassociated from what was seen as the potentially subversive self-defense aspects and family lineages of Chinese martial arts. Rhetorically, they also encouraged the use of the term "Kuoshu" (or Guoshu meaning "the arts of the nation"), rather than the colloquial term gongfu, in an effort to more closely

independent teachers of various arts still existed and taught throughout this time, it is just that they did not teach publically. So the lineages stayed intact. Also Sanda/Sanshou was developed by the PRC and many of the compition forms came from people who were traditionally trained . And lastly much of Modern Wushu is based on Changquan, but unlike traditional Changquan (which still exist on Mainland China) Modern Wushu is for performance and acrobatics and not so much for fighting. Many of the Modern Wushu folks in China are also trained in Sanda for fighting.

Lastly the term Gongfu or Kungfu was never used on mainland China by the Chinese prior to western involvement, It was Wushu. Kungfu means hard work, not martial arts