Kenpoguy123
Purple Belt
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2015
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No such thing as a fake martial art just a fake teacher
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What I'm saying is that this guy would do more good by helping people to identify the Martial art that will be best for a person by actually understanding the goal of the person. For example, If a parent who wants their child to get a black belt as fast as possible, then a "McDojo" school may be solution. From this perspective of getting a black belt as fast as possible, the "McDojo," may be an excellent fit for this parent and if it is, then that school isn't a fraud no matter how bad they teach or how many worthless techniques they have. The goal of the parent was to get a black belt as soon as possible and the McDojo was able to make that happen. If you send this parent to a school where the child is going to take 10 years before they get a black belt then parent isn't going to be happy, because the school isn't doing what the parent wanted.Okay… so you're saying that if the topic wasn't the topic, it'd be better? So… isn't that like saying you would love this salad if it was ice cream?
I don't know. I just know that Fraud is not a straight forward concept in terms of Martial Arts. A martial art school can be really horrible and still not be a fraud. The concept of fraud takes into consideration that a school initiated wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain. If the student got what they wanted then it's not a fraud. If a student thought that what they were learning would be useful in a real fight, but then found out later on that it wasn't, then maybe the first question that should have been asked by the students during the research phase was. How can I tell if a school is actually training students how to use techniques to fight?Only if they actually had the ability to be able to answer such questions. Sadly, I feel the answer would not be in their favour.
No it's not a back hand comment. it's a reality. Belted systems do have cool uniforms my schools uniform is a T-shirt and Kung Fu pants which is the dress code for Jow Ga. So if someone is looking for a cool uniform then Jow Ga is the wrong school. My school doesn't have awesome martial arts moves. Part of my attraction to Jow Ga was that it didn't have any of those flashy kicks and board breaks. I just wanted something that was practical and Jow Ga is very practical, do I think Jow Ga is cool, but I have always described Jow Ga as being very practical and not very flashy at all. I'll put it this way. The Jow Ga schools that do have flashy kicks only have flashy kicks because they included Wushu (non-Jow Ga) techniques into the system. So if someone is looking for cool TKD and Karate type kicks then Jow Ga isn't going to have it.Hmm… is that a back-handed comment about other arts, by any chance?
I'm referring to extreme martial arts where they do flips, tricking, and moves and techniques that were meant to be visually pleasing but lack real fighting application.That will depend entirely on your definition of "martial arts for entertainment"… as MMA competition is very much "martial arts for entertainment"… so BJJ, Judo, and many others are very well suited there
I'm saying that not every TKD or Karate school is a tricking school, some do it while others don't. Just because TKD or Karate is on sign, doesn't mean they teach tricking techniques by default.And? Are you suggesting that a school that features "tricking" as part of it's syllabus (and likely competitive format) can't also cover other areas and interests? Or that the abilities and attributes used for tricking, while not overtly combatively pertinent, offer a fair amount of tangental benefits to the students in the other areas?
The point is that many (most, most likely) schools can, and do, cater for a large range of interests and personal requirements… it's simply nowhere near as cut and dried, nor as black and white as you're implying.
I thought the same thing, but that may not work either because some people don't care if a technique works or not. In addition, a technique may appear to be bogus due to not understanding the technique in the first place.Maybe a good thing to show would be the opposite of fraud-busting: "here's a technique that some people think is bogus, but actually works."
That the definition that I was using too. But if I say that you can get a black belt within 5 years and I teach you bad skills, but give you a black belt on year 5, then is that fraud? . If my school claims to teach self confidence, respect, and discipline, then it would be possible to fail on everything else except what I claim and my school wouldn't be considered fraud. Even if the parents thought that I would make their child a better fighter, I would only have to show that I accomplished what I claim the student will learn, and that I never claimed the student would be a better fighter. I look at the big Martial Arts schools because they word their statements in a way that provides maximum legal protection against claims of fraud.I'm stuck of course in the police/legal definition of fraud, which mean to gain pecuniary advantage or services by deception ( there are nuances to this but that it in general). Lying about your experience but still providing a good service ie good instruction isn't fraud whereas teaching with bad skills, knowing that and taking money for that instruction could well be fraud.
I'm stuck of course in the police/legal definition of fraud, which mean to gain pecuniary advantage or services by deception ( there are nuances to this but that it in general). Lying about your experience but still providing a good service ie good instruction isn't fraud whereas teaching with bad skills, knowing that and taking money for that instruction could well be fraud.
What about the people who think they are teaching good skills when actually they aren't. This seems to be more likely in the MA community. Is it fraud if the person teaching believes they are teaching good skills? As for the person who provides good instruction but lies about their past experience, I guess it comes down to how much do you care about lineage or fighting experience when training under someone? Some people think that's the be-all and end-all of their art in terms of its validity, personally I don't. I like knowing the lineage of my art but purely from a curiosity standpoint, and that doesn't affect which art I choose.
I'm stuck of course in the police/legal definition of fraud, which mean to gain pecuniary advantage or services by deception ( there are nuances to this but that it in general). Lying about your experience but still providing a good service ie good instruction isn't fraud whereas teaching with bad skills, knowing that and taking money for that instruction could well be fraud.
No such thing as a fake martial art just a fake teacher
What I'm saying is that this guy would do more good by helping people to identify the Martial art that will be best for a person by actually understanding the goal of the person. For example, If a parent who wants their child to get a black belt as fast as possible, then a "McDojo" school may be solution. From this perspective of getting a black belt as fast as possible, the "McDojo," may be an excellent fit for this parent and if it is, then that school isn't a fraud no matter how bad they teach or how many worthless techniques they have. The goal of the parent was to get a black belt as soon as possible and the McDojo was able to make that happen. If you send this parent to a school where the child is going to take 10 years before they get a black belt then parent isn't going to be happy, because the school isn't doing what the parent wanted.
So instead of trying to tell people what is fraud and what isn't, people should help others on how to identify schools and systems that will deliver what the person wants. If a parent wants a black belt and they want a school that works hard and teaches effective techniques then don't send that parent to my school, because my school doesn't have what the parent wants.
I don't know. I just know that Fraud is not a straight forward concept in terms of Martial Arts. A martial art school can be really horrible and still not be a fraud. The concept of fraud takes into consideration that a school initiated wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
If the student got what they wanted then it's not a fraud.
If a student thought that what they were learning would be useful in a real fight, but then found out later on that it wasn't, then maybe the first question that should have been asked by the students during the research phase was. How can I tell if a school is actually training students how to use techniques to fight?
No it's not a back hand comment. it's a reality. Belted systems do have cool uniforms my schools uniform is a T-shirt and Kung Fu pants which is the dress code for Jow Ga. So if someone is looking for a cool uniform then Jow Ga is the wrong school. My school doesn't have awesome martial arts moves. Part of my attraction to Jow Ga was that it didn't have any of those flashy kicks and board breaks. I just wanted something that was practical and Jow Ga is very practical, do I think Jow Ga is cool, but I have always described Jow Ga as being very practical and not very flashy at all. I'll put it this way. The Jow Ga schools that do have flashy kicks only have flashy kicks because they included Wushu (non-Jow Ga) techniques into the system. So if someone is looking for cool TKD and Karate type kicks then Jow Ga isn't going to have it.
I'm referring to extreme martial arts where they do flips, tricking, and moves and techniques that were meant to be visually pleasing but lack real fighting application.
I'm saying that not every TKD or Karate school is a tricking school, some do it while others don't. Just because TKD or Karate is on sign, doesn't mean they teach tricking techniques by default.
That the definition that I was using too. But if I say that you can get a black belt within 5 years and I teach you bad skills, but give you a black belt on year 5, then is that fraud? . If my school claims to teach self confidence, respect, and discipline, then it would be possible to fail on everything else except what I claim and my school wouldn't be considered fraud. Even if the parents thought that I would make their child a better fighter, I would only have to show that I accomplished what I claim the student will learn, and that I never claimed the student would be a better fighter. I look at the big Martial Arts schools because they word their statements in a way that provides maximum legal protection against claims of fraud.
I could literally make up a fake martial arts and claim that the students learn self-defense (which we know isn't always physical), that they will lose weight (which we know doesn't require fighting), learn discipline and respect, while learning my martial arts. In my fake martial arts I would have Chi balls, incredible moves and acrobatics, and awesome demos of students catching chi balls and then eating chi balls to power up. And I would tell students that my Martial Arts isn't for fighting. I could take all of the money in the world and still not be a fraud so long as I deliver on my claim that students will learn self-defense, lose weight, and learn discipline and respect. The fact that I say that my Martial arts isn't for fighting also clears me. If someone wanted to sue me for Chi Balls, on what grounds would they sue me for? The only claim that I made were the realistic ones. I may look silly but there's no fraud.
What about the people who think they are teaching good skills when actually they aren't. This seems to be more likely in the MA community.
Is it fraud if the person teaching believes they are teaching good skills?
As for the person who provides good instruction but lies about their past experience, I guess it comes down to how much do you care about lineage or fighting experience when training under someone?
Some people think that's the be-all and end-all of their art in terms of its validity, personally I don't. I like knowing the lineage of my art but purely from a curiosity standpoint, and that doesn't affect which art I choose.
I'd say that it's more to do with the intent
??? Ok. I literally just told you what I was talking about and then you are going to that I was trying to suggest something else?No, you missed what I was saying. My point was that you were suggesting that the topic of the thread be something other than the actual topic… not what you were suggesting the topic be. And, for the record, neither the OP, nor Jermaine Andre strike me as being able to offer much informed opinion or insight either way.
His efforts reminds me of an MMA guy that used to train with our school. He would come to the school to pick up pieces of various techniques that he thought he could use in his MMA. The problem was that there is usually more to a technique than just swinging the arms a certain way. A detailed understanding of a technique is often required in order to effectively deploy a technique at the right time and in the right situation. I wonder if this guy is doing the same thing while trying to answer questions about what's fake or not.
I think a conversations like this should be based on what goals people may have. Not everyone takes a martial arts to learn how to fight.
I think if the topic was centered around goals such as:
1. If you want to learn how to fight using martial arts then look for this type of training which will get you half way there, the rest is up to you
2. If you want to learn how to martial arts for entertainment then look for this type of training which will get you half way there, the rest is up to you.
3. If you want to learn how to a martial arts for self-improvement then these systems directly focuses on that while these other systems achieve self-improvement as a by product.
4. etc.
I think if the OP and MC Jermaine were to take this type of approach then their efforts would actually help more people.
There is a difference in "feeling that you are getting what you want" and actually "getting what you want."Not necessarily, no. To take the example again of my friends school, the students there all feel they're getting what they want… but that doesn't change the fact that it's not a Japanese art (it's presented as one), it's not a traditional Japanese methodology (it's presented as one), it's not authentic weapon usage (it's presented as such), it's not an accurate representation of Japanese classical traditions (it's presented as such). But they enjoy it, and get the feeling that they're getting all of that, as it matches what they think such things are like…
Oh, how I wish that were true… but sadly, no, it's not. There are absolutely such a thing as fake martial arts. In fact, all fake teachers are only so because they're teaching fake arts…
You're still mixing up different aspects… if you make up a fake martial art (which is not saying what you'll get out of it, it's saying what it is in the first place… in other words, if you say it's a secret Chinese art passed down by a hidden sect of Jesuit monks, to the only teacher left, who you met in a park when you were three, and he named you the only grandmaster of said art… that would be a fake system), it's a fake martial art. If you make claims about what you'll get out of the art, but it doesn't live up to that, it's a bad martial art. These are not the same thing.
How do you prove that someone studied under a person that you never heard of?in other words, if you say it's a secret Chinese art passed down by a hidden sect of Jesuit monks, to the only teacher left, who you met in a park when you were three, and he named you the only grandmaster of said art… that would be a fake system), it's a fake martial art.
I studied under a Sifu who had a fight against 3 people and broke the arm of one of the attackers and beat the other 2 within 30 seconds. Now how you are going to prove that what I just said is false?
It's the highest enlisted rate in the US Navy, so there's lots of folks running around calling themselves Master Chief.Why would someone call themselves Master Chief? This is the only Master Chief I know.
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there are martial arts, which have it all. when i think of my karate back then, there was "art" = kata; there was "combat sport" = kumite and there was specific self-defense training, too. well i wouldn't say that their kind of combat and every of their self-defense techniques would be good, but basically, its all in. and it isn't the only martial art that does so.I've been thinking about this topic a lot recently, and specifically those closed-minded people who think that a true Martial Art is one that works in real combat. The thing is that most Martial Arts that are practiced today have either been specifically designed for sport (e.g. Boxing, Judo, BJJ, etc) or have been watered down and altered for sport (Wushu, Muay Thai, Karate, etc). So, going by that distinction that the only true Martial Arts are those designed for real world combat, there are only 2 "true Martial Arts" that I can think of, those being Krav Maga and Sistema. These 2, unlike all the others, were designed for the the military for real world combat. All the others, while they can work in real combat, are not specifically designed for it. They are designed to be used in a fighting ring under strict rules, or as performances.
I've been thinking about this topic a lot recently, and specifically those closed-minded people who think that a true Martial Art is one that works in real combat. The thing is that most Martial Arts that are practiced today have either been specifically designed for sport (e.g. Boxing, Judo, BJJ, etc) or have been watered down and altered for sport (Wushu, Muay Thai, Karate, etc). So, going by that distinction that the only true Martial Arts are those designed for real world combat, there are only 2 "true Martial Arts" that I can think of, those being Krav Maga and Sistema. These 2, unlike all the others, were designed for the the military for real world combat. All the others, while they can work in real combat, are not specifically designed for it. They are designed to be used in a fighting ring under strict rules, or as performances.
Maybe he meant to say Master chef?Why would someone call themselves Master Chief? This is the only Master Chief I know.
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Most of what you said was all backwards. BJJ and judo were not designed for sport. They both grew sport variants over time, Muay Thai, like boxing, was specifically designed for sport. MT was designed specifically for the ring (two of its ancestors being judo and boxing... Along with native Thai martial arts). You have Krav Maga competitions (sport) and KM fitness classes. It's another art, like BJJ and judo, which have turned into sports. Modern wushu was designed to be for fitness and not as a martial art. It was a stifling of the actual martial arts by the Chinese government. I think the only one you had right was karate.