Revealing Fake Martial Arts

[mograph]

The list of things I do not give a rat's ash about seems to grow with every passing year.

No attachments! So Buddhist!

 

[mograph]

I know the title "Revealing Fake Martial Arts" may ruffle some feather but don't judge a book by the cover. The title is simply there to do as it did... Get your attention!

Umm ... really?
Clickbait - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ironbear24]

Not those guys again.

Lol they really get around don't they?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just a reminder...

Fraudbusting is against the rules here. If this thread turns into fraudbusting (and there seems a strong possibility that it will), it will be shut down immediately and points infractions may be issued to individuals involved.

Consider yourselves warned...

I think a conversations like this should be based on what goals people may have. Not everyone takes a martial arts to learn how to fight.
I think if the topic was centered around goals such as:
1. If you want to learn how to fight using martial arts then look for this type of training which will get you half way there, the rest is up to you
2. If you want to learn how to martial arts for entertainment then look for this type of training which will get you half way there, the rest is up to you.
3. If you want to learn how to a martial arts for self-improvement then these systems directly focuses on that while these other systems achieve self-improvement as a by product.
4. etc.

I think if the OP and MC Jermaine were to take this type of approach then their efforts would actually help more people. Like I would never recommend Jow Ga if someone wants a cool uniform, a belt, and awesome martial arts moves. Jow Ga schools don't do any of the fancy choreographed demos. So I would be doing an injustice in telling someone who is looking to take Martial Arts for the entertainment value to take Jow Ga, or BJJ, or Judo. TKD and Karate has some awesome moves but even then, only certain schools within that system focus on tricking.

I think helping people find what they want is better than fraud busting. Fraud busting makes the assumption that everyone wants the "real thing" in the first place. People buy bootleg and fake items all the time so I don't see why Martial Arts would be any different.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Alright Tez lay it on me.

 

[Tez3]

Alright Tez lay it on me.

Pardon? I've no idea what that means.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Pardon? I've no idea what that means.

You disagreed with something in my comment and I just want to hear your side of what you disagreed with. You may have perspective that I didn't think about.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I am the Martial Arts Police. Gotta badge and ever thang.

 

[Tez3]

You disagreed with something in my comment and I just want to hear your side of what you disagreed with. You may have perspective that I didn't think about.

Fraud busting is against the rules here as is slagging other styles off, it's as simple as that. You can't do those things and dress it up as something else.

 

[Jermaine Andre]

Television has pretty much ruined the effectiveness of martial arts. That's a rather sweeping, not to mention inaccurate, statement.

 

[Jermaine Andre]

Hmm...



Hi Jayson.

First off, I want to say that I'm going to be addressing Jermaine himself, rather than you… I'm figuring you're simply trying to bring some attention to your coach's videos and "request", and simply don't know any better than to believe what he's saying. Sadly, this is a little more complex than you may realise…

Secondly, you may have misread the forum if you think such ideas are particularly suited to this forum, as there is a rather strict "no fraud busting" policy in place here. In other words, you can't simply go around saying "so and so is fake", no matter how you feel about it, or how obvious it may be to you and others… while that can get difficult at times, especially when dealing with certain notorious members of the martial arts world, it really is a policy set for good reasons… so this will attempt to stay within those lines as much as possible.



Okay, so I'm pretty well known here for being less than subtle in my commentaries… but I'll simply say that this video gives me no indication that Jermaine is in any way suited to talk on this topic. Frankly, his grasp of even what separate martial arts are is incredibly basic, and amateuristic in his understanding of pretty much everything… including histories and methodologies.



Yeah… he needs to understand the difference between "fake" and "applicable to the context being discussed or intended"… they're not the same thing… before anyone helps him in "revealing fake martial arts"… cause he doesn't know what "fake martial arts" are.



Look, to be charitable here, all I got out of that is that Jermaine Andre is eminently lacking in ability to discuss, or more over, "reveal" what he's classing as "fake martial arts"… he has shown no evidence or indication of how he would even be able to quantify what is or is not "fake" (leaving off for the moment that what is being discussed isn't actually "fake martial arts", but more a question of valid application of the least of all aspects, the individual techniques). His comment that he has "used most of the martial arts that are out there" is patently absurd… frankly, I'd be rather amazed if Jermaine was even aware of as much as 5% of the range of martial arts that are out there… with many falling well outside his ken.



Okay… why would you think that would happen here? More importantly, how did you think that would happen? The "moves" aren't the important thing… nor do that make the "art"…



Hi Jermaine, welcome aboard. Skepticism? Hmm… maybe. More realistically an upfront appraisal of whether or not there is any merit to making the claims that you do in your videos (to be able to even identify, let alone quantify and appraise aspects of things you obviously are lacking in awareness of).



I watched the videos. I researched you. And, honestly, if you're going to start talking about "fake martial arts", I'd suggest a "glass houses" mindset here…



Your accomplishments, for the record, mean absolutely nothing when it comes to assessing the technical methods of systems you so clearly have little to no awareness of, particularly when it comes to their usage in an ill-defined context (which is all it can ever be in these situations).



Oh, you're fine saying what you feel is correct… but temper that with the understanding that you're coming from a rather limited, narrow, and skewed perspective. If you want to know who can voice their thoughts (if you, with your "accomplishments" are questioned on it), I'd suggest someone with a hoplological background, an academically honed grasp of combative methods through multiple contexts, cultures, and the development and implementation of such… you know… someone who actually knows the topic at hand.



So… I looked you up.

It seems that you're someone who got in trouble with the law early on (simply a statement, there is no judgement here), and, while you were there, managed to increase your sentence by a couple of years (or, at least, delay your release on essentially the eve of your parole… getting put in solitary instead). When back in general population, you started a group to train in martial arts techniques, as you'd been shown "a couple of moves from your brother and uncles, picking up others from movies and books… the majority, though, from trial and error in street fights" (paraphrasing)… you insisted, despite no real training, no real background, a highly romanticised and misguided fascination with "living your life by the Code of the Samurai" (to the point that you wear your hair up in a ponytail in fights because "that's how the samurai wore it"… uh, no, chonmage is very, very, VERY different to your imagination) you insisted that the other guys training with you all call you "sensei" (quick question, do you know what the word actually means?). Once out of prison, you embarked on your combat sports career, and were noted for your explosive aggression, as well as a rather unorthodox (mainly as it's largely unschooled) approach. Your fights tended to be either you beating the opponent early by overwhelming them (showing little of the restraint required to last longer rounds, which your opponent's were employing), or, if they went longer, losing to technically superior athletes. I do like the way you call yourself a "UFC Vet" at the end of your video… you had one UFC fight, which you lost… still, that's one more than me, so kudos to you for getting there in the first place. There is, however, little to nothing on any formal training you've ever had, save some mention of a kickboxing coach who started working with you after you'd begun your career…

(EDIT: For reference, here is the source of the majority of the above: Jermaine Andre brings the Code of the Samurai to cage fighting.)

So why is this important? Well, your topic is "fake martial arts"… although you've managed to mis-apply the term completely. There is nothing at all about "fake martial arts" in anything associated with the videos you posted, or the (so far) only two video "questions" on your Facebook page (one on board breaking, one on hand wrapping… hmm). What you're actually trying to address is the concept of effective martial arts methodologies and techniques… which is very different from "fake". "Fake" martial arts are systems whose history and claims have been fabricated… people claiming to have learnt from some mysterious foreign person, whose name sounds suspiciously like an item from a menu in a Chinese restaurant (although it's said he's Japanese… or Korean…)… someone like Ashida Kim. Kim (real name Chris Hunter, although he has a number of other alias') claims to teach a school of Koga Ryu Ninjitsu… but, of course, his background in martial arts is even less legitimate than my cats. His videos are hysterically funny… even more so when you consider that he is completely sincere in his delusions.

But, to bring this back to you… you've presented yourself (in your videos, and on this forum) as being someone who has the insight to tell the "real" from the "fake" when it comes to martial techniques… you also have claimed to have trained in multiple systems (in your second video), saying "You know, I've had some experience in everything, from striking, uh, takedowns and throws, grappling, even wresting and boxing", then even more fleshed out in your first video, saying: "You know, as a practitioner of traditional martial arts, karate, kung fu (quick question, as there's no such single art as "kung fu", what system did you mean there? Choy Lay Fut? Wing Chun? Bagua? Xingi? Hung Gar? Just curious…), tae kwon do, Jeet Kune Do (sorry, just another question… you're classifying JKD as a "traditional" martial art? Really? As opposed to, well, every actual practitioner of the system, including it's founder, who created JKD as an answer to what he saw as "the classical mess"? Just checking…) and as a practitioner of MMA Mixed Martial Arts, as a practitioner of muay Thai kickboxing, boxing, umm… jujitsu, Russian sambo, Judo (Judo isn't traditional? Hmm… can you explain the kata then? Is the Koshiki no Kata a modern thing, what with the armour and all? How about the sword defences in the Kime no Kata?)… you know, I wrestled in High School… as a practitioner of all of these fighting styles…"

So… the question is, to what level did you train in any of these systems? What rank do you hold? How long did you study, say, karate? What system? How about Judo? What Dan grade are you from the Kodokan? Or is all of this from reading books and watching movies?

This is where we start to get into the issues of "fake martial arts", or, more realistically, fraudulent claims in the martial arts… you continue to talk about how, with all these systems, you can use a move from any one of them when you need it… which, honestly, simply compounds the idea (in my head) that you simply haven't actually studied (officially and formally) most of these arts… or, if you did (it would be for a very short time), you missed entirely the idea of training a system, and focused only on learning moves… which is about as beginner an approach as you can have.



I went there. There were two questions. Neither had anything to do with "fake martial arts", or anything else other than asking about some practices that you had little insight to offer on. You were a bit better on the hand wraps, but honestly, I wasn't really sold on your answer for a few reasons… mainly based around a lack of understanding of the differing contexts.



No, it's your intention to put yourself forward, with minimal actual education, as some kind of knowledgeable source.



That's the problem, Jermaine… you're far from "expert".



Sadly, all I can see happening is that some poor, clueless people who like the idea of talking with a real "UFC Vet" to get their information, get the impression that you know what you're talking about, and are a credible source. All that does is further the misunderstandings and poor appreciation of the practices of many systems… free or not.

Look, Jermaine, you're a talented guy when it comes to violence… you have a real natural flair for it, which you exploited well during your career. Well done to you for that. And huge kudos for getting your life turned around from the mid-late 90's… it's a testament to the drive you have. Your passion is also not to be underestimated… however, frankly, your experience is largely in the small arena of combat sports (as well as some experience in what we may call "street level violence"… on both ends, it seems). And the martial arts (as an area of study) are a much larger one than you seem to be able to speak on with any authority. I would, if I was to offer advice, suggest rethinking exactly what you can offer… your story can be quite inspirational, so your ability to act as a motivational role model would be great (and, it seems, is a role you are very well suited to, and apply with great success at your gym, based on your Facebook page)… and, if you were to want to present a series of videos offering advice on combat sports, training for the ring, and so on, I can see that having a fair amount of value. Here, I feel you've over-reached your knowledge base, though…

Lol! Are you serious!? You're hilarious and so is your lengthy breakdown. You must really feel threatened by that title! Everyone who is interested in "testing" out my offer be sure to shoot me a video and I will gladly answer your questions. I'm sorry but I don't have time to respond to keyboard warriors regardless of how lengthy they try to make their comments to seem accurate. So in summation... You can go with this guy who is doing all that he can to discredit a world traveled & known multiple world know champion (from different fight leagues) and Hall of Famer, (I guess all of the people who named me a champion, Hall of Famer were all wrong and this guy just figured everything out about me in 1 day from behind his computer scree) or ask me a question and see if you agree with my response. Thanks everyone.

 

[Jermaine Andre]

My reasons for saying that is due to the confusion caused by movies of what techniques really do and don't work. Trick wires, gymnastics experts, special effects etc... make many people think that the Martial Arts is only good for entertainment and not real combat. I love Martial Arts movies and I get questioned all of the time, "Would that really work?" And even when I say, "Yea. It probably could depending on the situation and people involved." ...I still get looked at weird.

 

[Tez3]

make many people think that the Martial Arts is only good for entertainment and not real combat.

I've found the opposite to be true and that's echoed by some posts on this site. Many people believe what they see on screen and think it is real combat

 

[Chris Parker]

I think a conversations like this should be based on what goals people may have. Not everyone takes a martial arts to learn how to fight.
I think if the topic was centered around goals such as:
1. If you want to learn how to fight using martial arts then look for this type of training which will get you half way there, the rest is up to you
2. If you want to learn how to martial arts for entertainment then look for this type of training which will get you half way there, the rest is up to you.
3. If you want to learn how to a martial arts for self-improvement then these systems directly focuses on that while these other systems achieve self-improvement as a by product.
4. etc.

Okay… so you're saying that if the topic wasn't the topic, it'd be better? So… isn't that like saying you would love this salad if it was ice cream?

I think if the OP and MC Jermaine were to take this type of approach then their efforts would actually help more people.

Only if they actually had the ability to be able to answer such questions. Sadly, I feel the answer would not be in their favour.

Like I would never recommend Jow Ga if someone wants a cool uniform, a belt, and awesome martial arts moves. Jow Ga schools don't do any of the fancy choreographed demos.

Hmm… is that a back-handed comment about other arts, by any chance?

So I would be doing an injustice in telling someone who is looking to take Martial Arts for the entertainment value to take Jow Ga, or BJJ, or Judo.

That will depend entirely on your definition of "martial arts for entertainment"… as MMA competition is very much "martial arts for entertainment"… so BJJ, Judo, and many others are very well suited there…

TKD and Karate has some awesome moves but even then, only certain schools within that system focus on tricking.

And? Are you suggesting that a school that features "tricking" as part of it's syllabus (and likely competitive format) can't also cover other areas and interests? Or that the abilities and attributes used for tricking, while not overtly combatively pertinent, offer a fair amount of tangental benefits to the students in the other areas?

The point is that many (most, most likely) schools can, and do, cater for a large range of interests and personal requirements… it's simply nowhere near as cut and dried, nor as black and white as you're implying.

I think helping people find what they want is better than fraud busting. Fraud busting makes the assumption that everyone wants the "real thing" in the first place. People buy bootleg and fake items all the time so I don't see why Martial Arts would be any different.

I think this thread would be served by explaining exactly what "fraud busting" is… it has absolutely nothing to do with what is "good or bad", it's nothing to do with "that won't work", or anything of the kind. It's saying "you're a fake, you had no real teacher, you've made up your ranking, you've invented your art by claiming to have been taught it by someone who didn't exist", and so on. It's about identifying and naming fraudulent persons, not ones who are simply poorly skilled, nor identifying arts that don't suit what you think is "effective" or "realistic".

I gave the example of Ashida Kim earlier… sure, he's utterly terrible, but that's not the point. Another example would be a system a friend of mine teaches… it's currently headed by his father, and was founded in the UK in the 50's by his godfather… it's an entirely Western invention, based in some fairly basic forms of modern Asian arts (specifically karate and judo), extrapolated out, with many invented elements added in (including quite an array of weaponry systems, all of which show the hallmarks of their illegitimate heritage if you know what you're looking at). This system is really little more than a cobbled together modern (bastardised) version of Asian systems, most of which are modern themselves… however the founder of the system claimed to have studied a number of systems in Japan (with no evidence at all… and some of the claimed arts, let's just say, no, not a chance). As a result, the (modern, Western) system is presented as being a way of training in traditional Japanese martial arts… it's simply not. It apes Japanese martial arts… it mimics (frankly, hollowly) what they think Japanese martial arts are about… they have a number of "traditions from feudal Japan" that have no basis in anything historical, accurate, or realistic… many training practices that flat out betray the lack of classical Japanese arts in the make-up… and more issues beside.

With all that, however, the school is very successful… my friend has a large number of students (of all ages), all of whom get a lot out of the lessons, and they all train hard with dedication and passion. My friend in particular is very interested in researching Japanese arts, and has been to Japan to pursue his search of his arts claimed history a few times (sadly, he's simply never going to find something that doesn't exist), and he is a very serious student first and foremost. The skills of the students aren't bad, by any stretch of the imagination… so quality (in and of itself) isn't a problem. In fact, like many similar fake Japanese systems, it looks very much like what many people believe Japanese martial arts should look like… to the point that the system, my friend and his father, are quite well respected, and are regularly asked to be part of seminars, or put on demos at fitness shows, martial art shows, and the like.

All in all, it's a good quality, serious, fake Japanese martial art school.

The problem is that, well, it's not based in anything authentic. It's based in imagination and guesswork. It's based in fantasy and desires. And that leads to a range of misunderstanding and misrepresentations of what Japanese arts actually are… as well as having a degree of material in the system, not based on anything tangible, but on "I think this is how this would work"… the very lack of a genuine pedigree means that some things taught there will simply not work the way they're intended… some will be incredibly dangerous if tried in reality (much of this in the weaponry, so thankfully they won't have to test it)… or worse.

Now, if I was to name the school, and point out these issues with it, that would be "fraud busting"… I would, quite literally, be "busting a fraud" on the site. And, as mentioned, that's not allowed here… mainly as the site itself does not position itself as an arbiter of what is genuine or not… the specialist knowledge to determine fraud is not as common as some seem to think… I can spot the vast majority of Japanese-inspired ones fairly easily, but an Indian or many Chinese ones would possibly get past me… and the simple fact of the matter is that many of the more ego-driven frauds out there can be rather litigious when they feel their claims are being questioned. As this is not a company website, it has been a largely personally run one for most of it's existence, the idea of fighting off lawsuits from disgruntled malcontents, upset that their lies were being called on, simply wasn't something that we were interested in.

My reasons for saying that is due to the confusion caused by movies of what techniques really do and don't work. Trick wires, gymnastics experts, special effects etc... make many people think that the Martial Arts is only good for entertainment and not real combat. I love Martial Arts movies and I get questioned all of the time, "Would that really work?" And even when I say, "Yea. It probably could depending on the situation and people involved." ...I still get looked at weird.

Er… no… I don't think people are particularly confused when watching wire-fu… to the point that they think it's real. The cat's kinda out of the bag there… honestly, if someone asked me if something like that "really worked", I'd be concerned for their mental faculties… and your answer of "yeah, it probably could…" would get an odd look from me as well… mainly as, well, you'd need a hell of a lot to back that kinda statement up. Of course, you're talking in such a vague sense here that it's a little unclear exactly what you're saying "probably could work"… the examples you gave would not be a high likelihood… and there's no real context or any real qualifiers to take your comment in any serious way.

 

[mograph]

Maybe a good thing to show would be the opposite of fraud-busting: "here's a technique that some people think is bogus, but actually works."

 

[Chris Parker]

Again… not actually fraud busting… it's not about the techniques… that's a completely different topic, which is more about art bashing (still not allowed here, of course)…

 

[mograph]

Again… not actually fraud busting… it's not about the techniques… that's a completely different topic, which is more about art bashing (still not allowed here, of course)…

Ah -- got it. Fraud-busting disses clubs and individuals; art-busting disses arts, styles and/or techniques without being attached to specific individuals or clubs?

 

[Flying Crane]

Ah -- got it. Fraud-busting disses clubs and individuals; art-busting disses arts, styles and/or techniques without being attached to specific individuals or clubs?

I think the difference really is between lousy skills vs. lies about ones training or the history of the system. If someone is telling lies then they are fraudulent, even if their skills could be quite good. But someone telling the truth is not fraudulent, even if their skills suck.

 

[Tez3]

I'm stuck of course in the police/legal definition of fraud, which mean to gain pecuniary advantage or services by deception ( there are nuances to this but that it in general). Lying about your experience but still providing a good service ie good instruction isn't fraud whereas teaching with bad skills, knowing that and taking money for that instruction could well be fraud.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Fraud busting is against the rules here as is slagging other styles off, it's as simple as that. You can't do those things and dress it up as something else.

???

I think you misread what I wrote. Everything that I put in my statement is what everyone does when someone asks what martial arts to take

I think helping people find what they want is better than fraud busting. Fraud busting makes the assumption that everyone wants the "real thing" in the first place. People buy bootleg and fake items all the time so I don't see why Martial Arts would be any different.

I think a conversations like this should be based on what goals people may have. Not everyone takes a martial arts to learn how to fight.
I think if the topic was centered around goals such as:
1. If you want to learn how to fight using martial arts then look for this type of training which will get you half way there, the rest is up to you
2. If you want to learn how to martial arts for entertainment then look for this type of training which will get you half way there, the rest is up to you.
3. If you want to learn how to a martial arts for self-improvement then these systems directly focuses on that while these other systems achieve self-improvement as a by product.

I can literally find where #1 to #3 are done by people of martial Talk. Nothing about what I stated has anything to do with Fraud. Even in my statement I say. I think helping people find what they want is better than fraud busting. That's not dressing up fraud busting.