Rethinking 9/11

[arnisador]

And a perfect example of those "wrong people" to listen to, as he is neither a structural engineer, nor an expert on demolition.

I work with a Ph.D. mechanical engineer and former AF officer who doesn't believe in evolution or a 4 billion year old earth.

 

[Big Don]

Here is a direct link to the people who have signed the petition. Please feel free to contact one of the several structural engineers listed ~ PETITION

Why would anyone want to contact nutjobs?

 

[elder999]

I work with a Ph.D. mechanical engineer and former AF officer who doesn't believe in evolution or a 4 billion year old earth.

Yeah, there was one of those at the lab.......Dr. Baumgartner was probably an altogether brilliant guy, except when it came to talking about teaching evolution in schools, and things he knew nothing about, like geology....:lfao:

 

[crushing]

When I first saw this thread titled Rethinking 9-11, I thought it might be a discussion and analysis of why the US was attacked and that perhaps that it perhaps wasn't because of the claims by politicians and their friends in the media that they attacked us because we imbibe some alcohol and have swimsuit competitions.

 

[Makalakumu]

At the end of the day...

You've seen about as much evidence as anyone else has here. Your opinion is still based on your bias, which you described above, and you don't really know what happened either.

Period. Full stop.

That said, I think millions of people around the world owe their lives to Truthers. Governments, including the US, have used false flag operations to start wars and kill people for thousands of years and now that term is in the public lexicon. Now that word is common knowledge and enough people have looked into this to understand it's historical significance. So many in fact, that the NYT can print an Op Ed from Vladimir Putin where he describes how the rebels gassed the Syrians and everyone knows it's a false flag. It's so common that Patrick Buchanan and Rush Limbaugh use it to describe what's going on in Syria. False flag, Qui bono, left right paradigm, etc.

The other thing that the Truthers have done is that they have unearthed the history of Al Qaeda. Everyone knows these guys were created and funded to fight the soviets in Afghanistan. Everyone knows that these groups are still being run right now by the CIA in Syria, Egypt, Libya, etc. people are making the connection right now that everything that the government claims about Al Qaeda is a lie. It will be interesting to see how this turns out.

Anyway, Obama said recently in regards to Syria, that it was unfortunate that people had access to certain information and certain opinions. He's talking about Truthers...and in this climate, with so many lies and so many secrets, anyone who is concerned is eventually going to be a Truther.

 

[elder999]

You've seen about as much evidence as anyone else has here. Your opinion is still based on your bias, which you described above, and you don't really know what happened either.

Period. Full stop..

Nah.

I know planes flew into those buildings.

I know that they fell.

Knowing what goes into a "controlled demolition," and, having watched film-some of which I'd wager no one else here has seen-over, and over, and over again, John, I know one more thing:

This was not a controlled demolition.

Want to argue about the complicity of our government, or how the Bush administration ignored 18 months of warnings, chatter and various red flags? I'm all over that. The minute you start talking about the entirely unfeasible and unwieldly proposition that is a controlled demolition of all three buildings, and, as far as I'm concerned, you've just bought proven that:



(and, don't get me wrong-there's a way that it could have been done that way, but there'd be some stories of what had taken place beforehand among the 52,000 odd people who escaped, and there isn't one hint that those activities taking place)

 

[jks9199]

I posted this sometime ago. I guess it's time to repost:

The thing about 9/11 is that we want a better explanation than a group of "3rd World terrorists" pulled one over on the "mightiest nation on the planet." We want a "truth" that reinforces our view that the US is the strongest, best nation on the planet, and has no need to fear anyone else. The only people strong enough to take us down are "evil us."

Sorry. The truth is that Al Queda and Osama Bin Laden aren't "3rd World Terrorists." They're just plain terrorists, educated in more than few cases by our own military, intellegence and colleges, trained and hardened by decades of war. They think long term, and they plan meticulously. 9/11 wasn't the result of a few weeks of planning, or a "hey, let's try this." I'd have to look up -- but some of the perpetrators had been in the US for years. They had studied and planned, working around our vulnerabilities. They exploited our ignorance, our complacency, and our reactions to prior hijackings.

That's important to understand. Until 9/11, the routine response to a hijacking situation was to sit tight, and wait for the plane to land. Then, the options were either wait 'em out or storm the plane. The hijackers on 9/11 exploited that: They took control of the planes, and on 3 out of the 4, the passengers didn't expect anything but the usual scenario.

We all aided and abetted the terrorists. We assumed that "terrorism happened somewhere else", to other people. We carefully avoided labeling terrorist activities that had happened here as terrorism. We refused to acknowledge how terrorists work, and we still refuse to acknowledge that we DO NOT make friends in a lot of the ways we try to help other countries and people. Especially when we stomp roughshod over their cultures and try to make them like us. Or when we assume that we're the best and our ways are the best. (Just look at some of the heat on this forum across national lines... And that's with fairly reasonable folks.)

There was a conspiracy involved in 9/11; in fact, I'll say there were two. The first, clearly and obviously, was the terrorists. That one involved at least 20 people, probably many more. The other? That was all of us who conspired to live out a myth without accepting the reality of terrorism, and of the people out there who don't like us.

 

[grumpywolfman]

Brains are falling out....

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Try sitting down.

 

[grumpywolfman]

[video=youtube_share;hZEvA8BCoBw]http://youtu.be/hZEvA8BCoBw[/video]

 

[punisher73]

Come on now. We see two planes hit the towers. Yet, the same "truthers" say that there were no planes that it was a missle or a drone.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/...ec/13/moon-landings-faked-science-confessions

Interesting read about how you can find "scientists" who still claim that the moon landing was faked and how the programs never give counter points to their argument and give it weight as if it is true even though actual experts in the field repeatedly debunk it.

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that our government isn't capable of shady things, but in this case the simplest explanation is the right explanation. Two planes crashing into the buildings at a high speed caused it to collapse under it's own weight.

 

[grumpywolfman]

Punisher73,

I would like to hear your explanation of this BBC news report telling that the Salomon Brothers building (WTC 7) has collapsed, while its still standing in the background behind the reporter as she is reporting live that it had already collapsed. While its being reported somebody realizes the mistake, and cuts the video during the report.

[video=youtube_share;C7SwOT29gbc]http://youtu.be/C7SwOT29gbc[/video]

 

[Sukerkin]

Can I just register my approval of that Grauniad article? :lol:.

{Note: the deliberate misspelling of the Guardians name is a joke referencing the fact that at one time their proof reading was less than stellar }.

 

[Sukerkin]

To the brave Repper who asked the question "WTF are you talking about?" but hadn't the courtesy to say who they were, making it impossible to answer their polite enquiry, I was talking about the Guardian article linked in post#30 ... as I said, most entertaining.

No need to get all secretly shirty about it.

 

[elder999]

Punisher73, I would like to hear your explanation of this BBC news report telling that the Salomon Brothers building (WTC 7) has collapsed, while its still standing in the background behind the reporter as she is reporting live that it had already collapsed. While its being reported somebody realizes the mistake, and cuts the video during the report. [video=youtube_share;C7SwOT29gbc]http://youtu.be/C7SwOT29gbc[/video]

THe aforementioned emergency operations center that I was involved in planning back in 1993/94, finally-to much ridicule- opened in 1999, on the 23rd floor of WTC#7. It was occupied during the attack and fully staffed 0during the tower's collapse in the morning, and remained so during rescue efforts until about 1000, when it was evacuated. It was evacuated due to its anticipated collapse, and this is what the reporter is speaking about-its anticipated collapse.

Really-all of this has been thoroughly debunked, and I'm sick of doing your homework for you. Run along.

 

[Tgace]

People who think this was controlled demo need to step away from the Hollywood for a while. Y'all know squat about what preparing a building for demo would entail...

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[elder999]

People who think this was controlled demo need to step away from the Hollywood for a while. Y'all know squat about what preparing a building for demo would entail...

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And even less about what that would entail for three buildings that were nearly fully occupied-not that it couldn't be done, but what it would have taken would amount to years, and too many people telling the story.....

 

[Tgace]

And even less about what that would entail for three buildings that were nearly fully occupied-not that it couldn't be done, but what it would have taken would amount to years, and too many people telling the story.....

It would have taken at least a year or more to prep all those buildings openly....in secret? Hell..decades.

Not to mention all the HUGE and LOUD explosions you would have heard as the charges went off....or all of the debris the prep would have left behind. Of all the wingnut theories out there controlled demo is the one I have the least open mind about.

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[Big Don]

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that our government isn't capable of shady things, but in this case the simplest explanation is the right explanation. Two planes crashing into the buildings at a high speed caused it to collapse under it's own weight.

Each plane was carrying nearly a full load of fuel.

 

[grumpywolfman]

People who think this was controlled demo need to step away from the Hollywood for a while. Y'all know squat about what preparing a building for demo would entail...

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You mean guys like Danny Jowenko who had over 30 years in building demolition experience?

 

[arnisador]

You mean guys like Danny Jowenko who had over 30 years in building demolition experience?

If expertise matters--doesn't it sway you that the overwhelming majority of experts think things happened just as the mainstream version has it?