Requiring Patience For The Black Belt And For Rank Advancement In General

No you also need skill, but that's what the test is for, to see if you've got the skill. So what Im saying is it's the test and whether or not you pass or fail that determines whether or not you've got adequate skill to grade up.
Totally, completely, 100% disagree. With the exception of when a person is really, really green, it is up to the person to train at a high level. This includes finding a school/gym that meets their needs. It isn't the 1970's; it is very easy for a person to know and understand 'high level' training. If they live in denial, that is on them and will usually be fleshed out quick enough.

To be clear, this does not include people who cannot or do not want to train for peak performance. Some people see a dojo/dojang as a social club. And while I do not fully subscribe to this, there is something to be said about a strong brotherhood in a school. It is what keeps most schools alive and thriving.
 
I’ve discussed this before about somebody who posted on a martial arts Internet forum, not this one, who said his instructor required patience to get a black belt and for rank advancement in general. He didn’t really get into detail about the system that his instructor used for rank advancement except to say that the instructor tells the student when they will test because patience was a requirement. So for instance lets say there’s a brown belt student at his dojo and the next time the student gets promoted it will be to that of first degree black belt. Even if the student is skilled enough to pass the test the instructor might not tell the student they can test because he wants the student to be patient. So when I posted about this before some people said that this was a good idea but I don’t entirely agree, I think if somebody is skilled enough they should be allowed to promote because, number one, time is precious, and number two, if a student has skill that means they’ve got patience simply because it takes patience to develop skill, that’s just my position on it.
Does the trainer want you to be patient or obedient? Normally there are some rules that provide a framework as to when you can take the next belt test. That‘s transparent and fair.

Basically, if the trainer wants to postpone the test (for more than technical reasons like tests are next month for all so wait till then) although the student has the skills, I think the trainer is on a power trip. Just like those drill sergeants in movies (don’t know if it’s like that in real life) abusing their power and screaming in the face of new recruits „I get to decide when you crap and when you take a piss, clear? / Siryessir!!! / Whaaat dumbhead? I didn’t hear you. Etc.“
 
Totally, completely, 100% disagree. With the exception of when a person is really, really green, it is up to the person to train at a high level. This includes finding a school/gym that meets their needs. It isn't the 1970's; it is very easy for a person to know and understand 'high level' training. If they live in denial, that is on them and will usually be fleshed out quick enough.

To be clear, this does not include people who cannot or do not want to train for peak performance. Some people see a dojo/dojang as a social club. And while I do not fully subscribe to this, there is something to be said about a strong brotherhood in a school. It is what keeps most schools alive and thriving.
So what do you disagree with? Do you think students shouldn't be formally tested? Do you think that tests shouldn't measure skill? If they don't then they aren't tests because the very definition of a test means that it measures skill.

You're right that it is up to the person to train at a high level or whatever level they train at. People take up the martial arts for different reasons and have different goals, motivations and wanted results, but exactly what about my post do you disagree with?
 
Does the trainer want you to be patient or obedient? Normally there are some rules that provide a framework as to when you can take the next belt test. That‘s transparent and fair.

Basically, if the trainer wants to postpone the test (for more than technical reasons like tests are next month for all so wait till then) although the student has the skills, I think the trainer is on a power trip. Just like those drill sergeants in movies (don’t know if it’s like that in real life) abusing their power and screaming in the face of new recruits „I get to decide when you crap and when you take a piss, clear? / Siryessir!!! / Whaaat dumbhead? I didn’t hear you. Etc.“
Practically all dojos are going to have a framework about when you can test, at my first dojo tests were run about every four months so if you wanted to test for your next rank you had to do it four months after the last test was held.

For an instructor to postpone a test for a student beyond that, beyond the framework of when tests are held as you point out, it isn't necessarily because the instructor is on a power trip, it could be because of the bet the student would be testing for, some of the higher belts might have longer minimum time requirements so maybe a student hasn't had their current rank long enough to be eligible to test for their next rank if its a high rank, when the testing date rolls around. For example, at my current dojo there is a five year minimum time requirement to get a black belt, to be eligible for the black belt you have to be a student there for at least five years.
 
I’ve discussed this before about somebody who posted on a martial arts Internet forum, not this one, who said his instructor required patience to get a black belt and for rank advancement in general. He didn’t really get into detail about the system that his instructor used for rank advancement except to say that the instructor tells the student when they will test because patience was a requirement. So for instance lets say there’s a brown belt student at his dojo and the next time the student gets promoted it will be to that of first degree black belt. Even if the student is skilled enough to pass the test the instructor might not tell the student they can test because he wants the student to be patient. So when I posted about this before some people said that this was a good idea but I don’t entirely agree, I think if somebody is skilled enough they should be allowed to promote because, number one, time is precious, and number two, if a student has skill that means they’ve got patience simply because it takes patience to develop skill, that’s just my position on it.

I can't talk of general MAs, but in Shotokan karate, for example - and I suspect most of his derivatives - this is exactly the point. The whole knowledge of the "skill" in the sense of combat skill is left very superficial, on purpose. Funakoshi writes that himself - in the past one went for depth, he was going for broadness and fast pace of progression. Because he had other objectives.

You can compare getting a black belt with getting a driving license: you know how to move a car from A to B (hopefully) without doing any damage, but you aren't necessarily a racing driver; indeed, most people having a driving license aren't and never will be.

Karate-do is a -do: a way to betterment, according to a specific definition of "better". Aside of fitness and health, the qualities it is designed to instill are grit, patience, respect for the elders, courtesy, obedience to the authority and so on. These are the ones required to advance in the game, as much (actually: much more) than any real combat or technical skill.

It actually works well, for the most part. Patience is a skill, and it makes sense to train it - either when you wait in seiza for your sensei to give the ok to move, or when you wait for him to decide on your grading. You are training the -do.

On the other hand: the kind of skill I suspect you have in mind does not care about belts at all. If you're a racing driver, you know how to drive from A to be faster and safer than most, whether you have a driving license or not. Actually, loads of teenage racing drivers can't drive yet on public roads but have far more control of their vehicle than most grown ups. That doesn't make them grown up. It's just a different skill.

For that kind of skill, nobody can promote you because you promote yourself by surviving every encounter where you have to use it. There were no belts in karate before it became an hobby (or a job), because the whole idea was meaningless.

So there's no contradiction. You may physically ready but not yet ready with your character; or the opposite. You will be given your license only when you're ready on both.

Obviously none of this is fun if what you care for is the combat skill. But then again, in that case, why caring about the belt?
 
So what do you disagree with? Do you think students shouldn't be formally tested? Do you think that tests shouldn't measure skill? If they don't then they aren't tests because the very definition of a test means that it measures skill.

You're right that it is up to the person to train at a high level or whatever level they train at. People take up the martial arts for different reasons and have different goals, motivations and wanted results, but exactly what about my post do you disagree with?
You said: "No you also need skill, but that's what the test is for, to see if you've got the skill."

Acquiring skill have zero to do with the test itself. A test is simply confirmation that you know certain skills and can demonstrate to a certain level.
In a good program, you are 'testing' every workout. This is where skill is acquired.
So, to be clear, at formal test has zero to do with learning a skill.
 
You said: "No you also need skill, but that's what the test is for, to see if you've got the skill."

Acquiring skill have zero to do with the test itself. A test is simply confirmation that you know certain skills and can demonstrate to a certain level.
In a good program, you are 'testing' every workout. This is where skill is acquired.
So, to be clear, at formal test has zero to do with learning a skill.
I never said you did acquire skill by formal testing and I don't know how you got the impression that that's what I said, you acquire skill by practicing not by testing. When you do drill work and practice your techniques and practice your katas, that's how you acquire skill.

The purpose of the formal test is to see if you've acquired enough skill from the practice that you've done, to promote to your next rank.
 
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