HighKick
Master Black Belt
Most schools do exactly that.
Requiring Patience For The Black Belt And For Rank Advancement In General
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
- Start date
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
From white to black belt the emphasis is on technical execution (90% with 10% effort, attitude, etc.). I see no reason to keep a student from progressing as fast as his ability allows. A large school may find it necessary to have set times for testing, every three months for example. In this case I would recognize the quicker students by skipping them a grade (or two) during their journey to black belt. No reason they should be held back.
After black belt a new phase arises where the emphasis starts on the more non-technical aspects of the art. These aspects often require depth of understanding, self-exploration, internalization, maturation and "enlightenment" that cannot be accelerated simply by physical ability or even experience. Like a good wine or Scotch, aging is required. (Drinkers of Coors or Budweiser may not appreciate this fact.) At the black belt level increasing lengths of time between degrees I think are needed for this to happen.
Time in grade requirements after black belt also helps the student take his mind off the next promotion, the goal, and allows him to concentrate on the process. If the student does not have the discipline and patience for this, he will not be able to develop the attributes of a higher-grade black belt anyway, and so his quitting will do no one any harm.
Yes I am training at a Goju Ryu dojo, my instructor does have a five year time requirement to get a black belt, you have to be a student at his dojo for at least five years before you're eligible for the first degree black belt but aside from that I don't know of any other time requirements he has.
Well the way the guy described it, and I don't know details or anything, is that his sensei would tell you when you were going to test for the black belt. Brown belt students would have to be told before they could test for the black belt because his sensei required patience in addition to skill, so even if a brown belt student was skilled enough for the black belt the sensei might not let him test for it yet because he wanted the student to be patient. Again I don't know details and I could be wrong with my assumption but the way it sounded to me was that a brown belt student would have to wait indefinitely, just because the sensei wanted him to be patient.
HighKick
Master Black Belt
This is also true at most schools. There is no static timeline and some degree of instructor subjectivity as to when a person tests for any belt.
It is never on automatic.
ap Oweyn
Black Belt
And are you okay with that arrangement? Are you happy with the style and your instructor? If so, it sounds like you're all set.
Well I can see about having a minimum time requirement, before you can be a black belt you have to be a brown belt for a certain length of time and only after you've been a brown belt for that length of time can you test for the black belt, but why wouldn't a student be eligible to test after they've fulfilled that time requirement? If they've fulfilled the time requirement that shows they've got patience so they should be eligible to test.
My position and viewpoints that I've mentioned in this thread I do not hold because of my current style and instructor but rather because of my experiences with a past instructor and also experiences with other people in the martial arts world. To describe my past experiences with my past style and instructor I would start a new thread for that.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
It has some merit.
The counter argument is that black belts represent the club and so they should have the right kind of character.
But clubs that don't have the right sort of character turn that idea in to a pyramid scheme.
HighKick
Master Black Belt
Still too many unknowns. For all we know you met all but the last hour of requirements 10-years ago, then showed up, worked out for an hour and expected to test. And there are Several variables to this equation.
ap Oweyn
Black Belt
I think this discussion is mostly highlighting the highly subjective nature of the black belt as metric, which is why I haven't put much stock in them over the years. It's not that they're meaningless. It's just that their meaning is very difficult to discern without being immersed in the process by which they were earned. And if you're immersed in that process, you probably don't need the symbol in the first place. But I do get the value of symbols. It would nag at me if I'd never earned any black belt. Rightly or wrongly, it would have nagged at me a bit.
Again, I don't know the details. I didn't speak much with the fellow to know too much about how his sensei functioned in terms of rank advancement, all I know, based on what he said, was that the sensei tells you when you're going to test and it was because he required patience so for instance if the next belt for you was black belt, even if you were skilled enough for it he might not let you test for it yet because he wants you to be patient. As I said before, I don't see why a reasonable minimum time requirement wouldn't be adequate if you're going to require patience.
If a student has been going to the dojo consistently and they've met the minimum time requirements for their rank I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to test for their next rank, including the rank of black belt if that is their next rank. They've shown patience by meeting the time requirement so there would be no reason to hold them back from testing, so in the case of the fellow Im describing above, I see no reason why he would tell students when they're going to test instead of just requiring them to meet the minimum time requirements before they can sign up for their next test.
HighKick
Master Black Belt
I see nothing wrong with this. As an instructor you are required to teach people as best you can AND maintain the standards of your school. Even if a person has put the required time in, it should never be an automatic trigger to test. That would be akin to taking an advanced math class showing up for every class, doing poorly and still expecting to pass the final test. It just doesn't make sense.
Would you be okay with a mass of instructors out there trying to teach a martial art that "got their time in" but did poorly through their belt progression?
With math classes, or all academic classes in general, tests, including the final test, are mandatory, so if you do poorly in class it would show in the test.
As for the martial arts, obviously required time would not be the only requirement, you would also have to have adequate skill if you're going to promote and that's the purpose of the test, to see if you have adequate skill. If you don't have adequate skill it would show in the test and you would fail which means you would not promote, you would not get your next belt or rank. That's why it's called a test, you can pass but you can also fail.
As for your example of a mass of instructors who got their time in but did poorly through their belt progression, if they did poorly that means they would not've promoted which means they would've not progressed up the belts of rank which means they would not be instructors because to be an instructor you would have to hold a high rank, unless you're a fake.
So as I said, if an instructor is going to require patience I can understand having reasonable time requirements (before you can promote you have to be at your current rank for a minimal length of time, within reason) but it would make sense to also require skill in order to promote. To automatically promote just because you've been at your current rank for a certain length of time, regardless of how bad your skill might be, wouldn't make sense and I would not want to take classes as such a dojo.
As for requiring skill, that's where the tests come in. The purpose of the tests is to see whether or not you've got enough skill to promote. You have to do well enough on the test to pass and that's what makes it a test. That being said it makes sense for a student to be allowed to test once they've been at their current rank for the minimum length of time required. It doesn't mean they will pass but since they've fulfilled the time requirement they can now see if they can fulfill the skill requirement by taking the test.
Some people on this forum just don't seem to get it that taking a test and passing a test are two different things. Just because you take a test doesn't mean you will promote. It just means you might promote, if you fulfill the skill requirement by doing well enough on the test.
As for requiring skill, that's where the tests come in. The purpose of the tests is to see whether or not you've got enough skill to promote. You have to do well enough on the test to pass and that's what makes it a test. That being said it makes sense for a student to be allowed to test once they've been at their current rank for the minimum length of time required. It doesn't mean they will pass but since they've fulfilled the time requirement they can now see if they can fulfill the skill requirement by taking the test.
Some people on this forum just don't seem to get it that taking a test and passing a test are two different things. Just because you take a test doesn't mean you will promote. It just means you might promote, if you fulfill the skill requirement by doing well enough on the test.
ap Oweyn
Black Belt
I'm not sure that anyone is suggesting that a test shouldn't be an evaluation of a person's understanding and performance of the material. I'm certainly not. It's pretty well baked into the word "test."
What I might say is that you're screaming into the wind a bit. Which you have a right to do. It's a discussion forum and you've started a discussion. But what I'd say is that there's not much policing this sort of thing. What you control is whether or not to participate in a given system. (And I don't mean martial arts system here.) You vote with your feet. I agree that belts (or whatever metric a school uses) shouldn't be handed out on a regular schedule and that tests should be... tests. But I just wouldn't go to a teacher who did that. And that's all I really could do.
I think we have to accept that martial arts are a broad and varied landscape. We can't change that whole landscape. We can only tend to our little patch. And I think that's probably enough.
An instructor is going to run their dojo the way they want but what Im saying is that, if an instructor is going to require patience as one of their requirements for belt advancement, why not just require a minimal length of time, within reason of course, that the student has to have their current belt before they can get their next belt, and after they've fulfilled that minimal time requirement, let the student test for their next belt? Now, if an instructor is going to require not only time but also skill in order to promote, as most instructors from my observations do, that's what the test is for, to see if the student is skilled enough for the next belt. Taking a test doesn't guarantee you will pass otherwise it wouldn't be a test. So that's what the test is for, to see if the student has the skill.
In my original post I was talking about a brief message board chat I had with a martial arts student on a martial arts forum that wasn't this one. From what little I learned from our brief chat, his instructor told you when you would test because he required patience to promote, not just skill, so even if you were skilled enough to test he might not tell you that you could test because he wants you to be patient. What I don't get is why an instructor would do that instead of just setting up a minimum time requirement, and that after you fulfilled the time requirement you could then test.
HighKick
Master Black Belt
To be clear, are you saying the only important variable to rank up it time in grade?
