Religion in the MA's

[Laeticia]

That being said, there are exclusivistic elements in some Eastern religions, as well. One need not look further than "Pure Land" Buddhism in Japan for proof of this.

I'd still say that depends on the sect you're looking at... The Nichiren sect has been likened to Jehovas Witnesses, known for their aggressive proselytizing work. The founder of True sect of Pure Land, Shinran, told that if one wishes to follow his way, one should throw all other prayers etc away and concentrate on the practise of nembutsu. The same with Dôgen's writings about his zen sect.

What seems to be missing from the doctrine (except from the Nichiren sect) is the "we're the only RIGHT religion" line that can be found from some western religions. What they're saying is basically "If you want to practise with us, you follow our rules. Otherwise you're free to leave and choose another Way."

In real life "Pure Land" buddhism has always been a very relative phenomena, including all sorts of buddhas and kami. "Kannon and her pure land" seems to have been a very popular thought, even though the 2 have nothing to do with each other...

All this being said, there's numerous research articles comparing the teachings of Shinran and christianism (particularly lutheran teachings). Even to the point that when I was doing research on him I started to get really pissed off trying to find something on his philosophy with no christian remarks.

Cheers,
Laeticia

 

[heretic888]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the mythology of "Pure Land" Buddhism hold that those who do not follow the teachings of the Amida Buddha will face some type of hell as a punishment??

In any event, what people are trying to pass off as "Western" religion would actually be best characterized as "Abrahamanic" (i.e., the mainstream versions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). The Hellenistic philosophy of the Greco-Roman world actually advocated a large degree of religious tolerance and pluralism, with the underlying belief that the same god (pantheus or "all-god") is represented with different names in different cultures.

In fact, this was one of the reasons that the Jews and Christians of the period were accused of being "atheists". It was because they advocated the exclusive reverence of their own tribal god to the exclusion of other manifestations of the pantheus. That would have come across as bizarre to an educated citizen of the Greco-Roman empire.

Laterz.

 

[Laeticia]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the mythology of "Pure Land" Buddhism hold that those who do not follow the teachings of the Amida Buddha will face some type of hell as a punishment??

I'll start with saying that I know next to nothing about the modern pure land sects.

But in the original logic I didn't find any evidence of that. I wrote a short research paper last spring about how Shinran (and Dôgen) wrote about death and that which follows it, and even though the Jodo Shin sect is usually regarded as the strictest and "most dangerous" of the Pure Land sects in old Japan (even though this reputation is based mainly on the acts of his followers some hundred years later) I found no hints of "disbelievers will go to hell".

He was very straightforward: There's the "Hard Way", fit for sages and wise people who can meditate, do meritous deeds and gain enlightenment that way. Then there's the "Easy Way" that fits normal people like Shinran, who are weak and full of passions and doubts, and cannot follow the Hard Way. The Easy Way consists of trusting Amida's saving vow with all your heart. You can't follow them both.

In fact, the whole Pure Land logic doesn't seem to give way for that thought, because by praying/visualizing/invoking the Pure Land and Amida, he will come to you when you die and take you to his Pure Land where you can focus on getting enlightened, something which is difficult in the "normal" world. The different possibilities are either the Pure Land or to be reborn in the samsara. Samsara INCLUDES hells and heavens (rebirth as demons, ghosts or gods), right on side of "our" world, but it isn't a Pure Land or Hell kind of thing. Maybe hell as a punishment of the bad things you had done during your lifetime, but not as punishment for not choosing the Pure Land. If you have time/interest, I know there exists an english translation of his Tan'ishô (or Tannishô) and a commentary to it (with long and irritating prelude about how Jodo Shin and Christianity resemble each other). But I think in Tan'ishô (a book that's written by Shinran's closest disciple to set some things & misunderstandings straight) there's a passage about the problem of "going to hell". Can't say for sure, as I don't have my sources at hand (a month left before I move back to Finland! Yeay! I miss my books so much... )

Of course, too-ardent followers of ANY religion usually mess up the teachings...

/Laeticia

 

[heretic888]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. :asian:

 

[Brother John]

I personally think that religion plays NO role in the martial arts.
Often in Asia, the different aspects of their culture tend to meld together. That's not the way in the Western World. What would we be missing if we Didn't practice the "religion" that may or may not have been in the original mix of our art? IS there anything that a so called "Spiritual" Black Belt can do that a "non-Spiritual" Black Belt cannot??
Doubtful.
BUT I should also note that I really don't look at meditation, in and of itself, a 'religious' act. There IS religious meditation, in many or even Most of the world religions....but there's a great deal of it that is nothing more than a simple mental exercise. Very beneficial to the martial artist who must maintain their composure under stress...but it's not "relgious".

Your Brother
John

 

[Laeticia]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. :asian:

No prob, glad if I could help.

On the other hand though, the Nichiren sect (Lotus sutra sect) did use that kind of rhetoric - Nichiren's main point at the time of him founding the sect was "Follow me or the Mongols will destroy all Japan". This happened around the middle of 13th century when there was 2 attempts by the mongol forces to invade Japan, attemps that were countered by the original "kamikaze", divine winds (=typhoons).

Anyways, they are active still today, have their own political wing and -party called Sôka Gakkai that propagates buddhist love, peace and world dominion. They are also the only sect that to my knowledge is openly religiously intolerant and exclusive. From our japanese teacher's reactions and descriptions they are still being as pushy and irritating as they were at the time of the sect's foundation - Nichiren himself was chased from the country by the government after his threats and demands became too loud.

They have some good points, though, like an american site with a good online dictionary for buddhist terms... Unfortunately I've lost the link, but if you went to the main page and started to read some of their "mission statements", it kept you chuckling for the rest of the day...

Cheers,
Laeticia

 

[pstarr]

I don't believe that religion plays a role in any martial art. I've heard fundamentalist Christians argue that the Asian martial arts necessarily require their followers to devote themselves to Oriental deities and so forth.

Rubbish. I'm a Christian myself and these people give us a bad name.

You can train in a traditional martial art and progress to the highest levels without having to adhere to any particular theology.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't believe that religion plays a role in any martial art. I've heard fundamentalist Christians argue that the Asian martial arts necessarily require their followers to devote themselves to Oriental deities and so forth.

Rubbish. I'm a Christian myself and these people give us a bad name.

You can train in a traditional martial art and progress to the highest levels without having to adhere to any particular theology.

Bravo....

Thank You and I agree completely.