Religion?Sport?Hobby?or Way of Life?

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by lifewise



No this woman isn't nuts - just very opinionated and takes "neighbourhood watch" literally!

I did just that - I simply listened to her views, and wished her a good day. It wasn't that I didn't think of things I would have LIKED to say ... but I wasn't raised that way.

That is usually the best step, if she keeps nosing in, I would suggest trying to be-friend her, and maybe on down the road you can explain to her what exactly you are accomplishing with your martial arts.

Michael

 

[arnisador]

In this thread a news story is cited about a judoka contesting the requirement that she bow before competition as she objected to it on religious grounds. The judge ruled that she could be required to bow.

 

[Dronak]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

What does this hand over fist represent?
Is it a technique or some sort of other meaning?

Assuming we're all talking about the same basic gesture, I can give you a little information from _Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu_ by Yang Jwing-Ming and Jeffery A. Bolt. This is mentioned in the beginning section on Shaolin history. I'll quote the relevant section; it's most of one paragraph but you've got the reference for it.

Many of the monks, however, did more than teach Wu Su to ordinary people -- they and their disciples organized resistance movements against the Chin dynasty. The reestablishment of the previous Ming dynasty became the goal of many Chinese. To symbolize the wish to return to the glory of the Ming, Shao Lin disciples used a special hand signal -- this hand signal is seen in Figure 2. In Chinese the word _Ming_ means "bright" and is composed of the characters for the sun and the moon, the two great sources of light or brightness. The right hand in a fist symbolized the sun and the left open hand symbolized the moon; together the fist and open hand meant bright or Ming. When a person showed the hand signal he indicated two things: first, the Ming dynasty must return, and secondly, that the person showing the hand signal was himself "bright" and an agent for justice.

That seems to be a more historical meaning than a present day meaning. I kind of doubt most people consider using that as indicating a desire to return to the Ming dynasty. When we had an exam earlier this year, I asked our teacher about how to begin, if we should use that hand signal as we did for a recent demonstration or a plain bow or what. I think that's when he said that using the hand signal is a form of a bow, but a more formal one, and that for an exam like this we should use a regular bend forward from the waist bow because it's a more humble bow. As for use of the bow, we really only use it with our teacher. When he arrives, we bow to him and before class breaks up and we leave, we bow again. As our teacher stated in a handout he gave us, "whenever master arrives, everyone should stop what they are doing and show proper respect by facing him and bowing. After all, a master have demonstrated to the Grandmaster that he possess the necessary talent and knowledge to reach this high level." So I'd say we use it mainly as a sign of respect for our teacher and the art as a whole.

 

[lifewise]

WOW, leave you guys alone for a bit and look what comes out! It never ceases to amaze me how topics evolve here on MT....

 

[lifewise]

Originally posted by AvPKenpo



My first thought is to invite your nosey neighbor over, and use her to demonstrate dance of death to your daughter.

I can't help but laugh at the idea of this! :rofl:

 

[lifewise]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

But after the last exchange, I figure I will let those who are junior in the arts figure stuff out for themselves rather than help them in their pursuits...

They, after all, know far more than the rest of us...

As a "junior" in the arts I have respect for those "seniors" that TREAT "juniors" with respect. I believe your comment here however is unfair.

I personally enjoyed your contributions on the topic. However, if you really feel this way and are not simply venting your anger here, what good are your posts?

Respectfully,
:asian:

 

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by lifewise




I can't help but laugh at the idea of this! :rofl:

I think your daughter would learn a lot..............well, maybe not a lot, but it would sure be entertaining. You could always be like Ozzy's family and throw bricks in her windows, or was it a dead chicken...hmmm.......:angel:

Michael

 

[Klondike93]

When I was learning to be a bartender, there were 3 things I was told to never discuss with a customer :

1. Never discuss religon

2. Never discuss money

3. Never discuss politics

The reason was it would cause more arguments than anything else. This is what I see has somewhat happened here.

Well me I'm not religous so that has no bearing here for me, but it does for others, which is fine that's their right.
Sport, not really any more, but at one time it was.
Hobby, that would be my Mustang not my MA.
Way of life, that would best describe it now for me, after being in it for the better part of 28 years.

The nosy woman should be told to go on and mind her own buisness, but we know she won't do that.

it was obvious that changing her mind was not something that could be done. I really don't think it was my place to tell her she was wrong, just as it wasn't her place to tell me my practice of the martial arts was sinister.

So you won't change her mind, but you need to point out that it's also wrong for her to try and force her opinion on you and your daughter. It is your place to tell her she's got the wrong idea about it and to try and change it as best you can. That's what I would do, but I also wouldn't try endlessly to get the point across. Try once or twice and then let it go and go about your own buisness and let it go, as best you can I guess.

Aren't you the guy that was slinging mud my way in another thread and now you want me to be your "pal" and share some technique with you?I find that rather odd

I find it odd you need to bring this kind of thing up, what do you hope gain by it, embarrass the guy?

But rather than share it and get attacked as a "know it all," I'll just remain silent and keep it to myself...

This sounds really childish on your part. You make yourself look bad when acting like this. The man took offense to something you wrote, get over it. I'm sure someone will take offense to this post but it is after all, just my opinion.


:soapbox:

Stepping down now


:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

This sounds really childish on your part. You make yourself look bad when acting like this.

You are right on the money.

I deliberately baited Kirk, knowing that certain comments would elicit a certain response on his part.

Shame on me for doing that, and shame on Kirk for falling for it.

His comments pushed my buttons, and instead of responding in a more adult fashion, I gave in to my feelings and said some things that ought not to have been said...

Kirk, forgive me. What I did was childish, and made both of us look bad. I recommend we both act like the adults we think we are (sometimes I slip, I guess) and get on with our training and learning...

:asian: Gomen nasai :asian:

Gambarimasu.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




Sorry I have found the Internet a miserable tool for conveying how to do technique.............ya just have to see it and feel it to understand it.

Aren't you the guy that was slinging mud my way in another thread and now you want me to be your "pal" and share some technique with you?
I find that rather odd.........

I wasn't slinging mud. I was calling attention to the fact that
you're very crude and mean to others. That's all. The thing
about your posts is you seem to either share knowledge, or
put others down. I don't see you doing anything else. So if
you're looking to share, then I read what you have to say. If
you're looking to be a jerk, then I'll say that you're being mean.
If you go back and check the thread, YOU addressed me first.
So you came in a guise of cool and nice, and then you turned
it around and accused me of somehow desiring you as my "pal".
I find THAT rather odd. And I make the accusation sir that YOU
thrive on conflict, and being mean. This is as nicely as I can put
it. We wouldn't want your boy running off and telling daddy
again, now would we?

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kirk

.

 

[Sigung86]

Don't anybody hit me, Please!!!???

If you look at old 8mm film or video xferred, as it were, you will often time see SGM Parker, and some of the old timers standing in a neutral stance with their hands folded in the "left over right" waiting for the commencement of the attack.

From the basic salutation as used in Kenpo, as used in "kung fu", and as used as a variant in most Asian Arts, come many different implementations.

Now... Having said that ... I will say, regarding the nosy zealot ... It is often best to simply let them have their say, acknowledge their right to have their say, listen, then go on as you were.

Now ... I'm outta here before someone takes a verbal swing!
I'm thinking of Brothers Castillo, Conatser, and Broad!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan "Duckin', Dodgin', Exitin' rapidly" Farmer

 

[lifewise]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



You are right on the money.

I deliberately baited Kirk, knowing that certain comments would elicit a certain response on his part.

Shame on me for doing that, and shame on Kirk for falling for it.

His comments pushed my buttons, and instead of responding in a more adult fashion, I gave in to my feelings and said some things that ought not to have been said...

Kirk, forgive me. What I did was childish, and made both of us look bad. I recommend we both act like the adults we think we are (sometimes I slip, I guess) and get on with our training and learning...

:asian: Gomen nasai :asian:

Gambarimasu.

Nice post Matt.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by lifewise

Nice post Matt.

It's good to see posts like these! We have to remember how easy it is for things to be misconstrued over the Internet, with no body language, vocal intonation, ability to quickly correct a misunderstood comment/failed joke, etc.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by lifewise




Nice post Matt.

:asian:

Thanks, but apparently it fell on deaf ears...

Originally posted by Kirk

We wouldn't want your boy running off and telling daddy again, now would we?

In other news...

Originally posted by Sigung56

If you look at old 8mm film or video xferred, as it were, you will often time see SGM Parker, and some of the old timers standing in a neutral stance with their hands folded in the "left over right" waiting for the commencement of the attack.

In CMA circles, you will see a huge variety of different kinds of bows, with different hand positions and meanings... Two people could bow nearly identically, yet have separate and distinct reasons for why they do what they do...

It is my understanding that the hand positions have varying meanings... Both hands palms together would refer to a pacifist who would not fight. One hand clenched in a fist, the other palm open (either wrapped around the fist, or held with the fingers and thumb extended and joined) represented a "fighting monk" or some such thing - a person who would resist fighting, but when pressed wouldn't be beyond busting a few heads... There is a hand position, right fist out as in a punch, left hand palm open, fingertips touching the right fist, thumb toward the ground (so the left hand is horizontal, little finger up, thumb down) was the salute to instigate a challenge match...

Sometimes the practitioner bows, sometimes he nods, sometimes he just stands there and presents his/her hands to you... At different CMA tournaments over the years, I have seen a lot of weird things. Whatever. To each their own...

Gambarimasu.

 

[chufeng]

For me, MA is a "way" of life...

It has enhanced my appreciation of many religions...
It has strengthened my own spirtual beliefs...
It has shown me how to deal with many of life's "road blocks" (aka stepping stones)...
It has also shown me how to deal with NOSY neighbors...

I won't offer advice...it seems you have matters well in hand...
As you can see from some posts, those with strong opinions will express them whenever and wherever they can...

I am sometimes guilty of being too expressive...
But if we were all the same, what a boring world this would be.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[lifewise]

It didn't fall on deaf ears Matt.

Integrity may be silent, but is echoed to many.

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

In Japan there are several types bows each of which show different amounts of respect for the intended person or in some cases thing. Department stores in Japan spend days teaching their employees how to bow properly. You be surprised at how many Japanese do not know how to bow properly. I haven't had a Japanese student in my dojo yet that knew how to bow like they are supposed to. Kinda weird having a "gaijin" teach them how to bow I imagine.

The Full seated bow with head going all the way to the floor with only 3 fingers touching is called "ohjigi" and is probably the most polite.
It's not used very much and normally only done for VIP, or in front of certain religious objects and so on.

The standing 90 degree bow might the 2nd most respectful bow. This is done with a 90 degree bend at the waist.

Next is 45 degrees.
Then 30 degrees. Common every day bow.

And lastly a "nod". This is usually done by teachers towards there students or very junior people.

It should be noted that when I say "respectful" in the above cases it doesn't always mean respect to the person. Japanese people are often perfunctory in their manners and in some cases do things out of "respect" for not making for the situation.
For example, someone might do an ohjigi type bow even though they can't stand the person they are doing it to, however they do it because they don't want to embarrass the group or situation they are in and also because it is "the thing to do". You wouldn't know it by looking at them but they could actually be thinking "I'd like to cut your heart out and feed it to my pet goldfish".

The converse is also true. An instructor who may have a great deal respect for his students wouldn't normally do anymore than a nod or a 30 deg. bow. Why? It's just not done, protocol and all that. It would be what the Japanese call "baka tene" or stupid politeness........meaning overly polite for no reason.

 

[Matt Stone]

I was taught that a senior should always bow lower than a junior... And that a junior should always bow lower than a senior...

There is bowing with your body, but there is also bowing with your heart...

A difference exists.

Bowing is the first lesson a student should receive, and it is often one of the last lessons that actually bears fruit. But that doesn't mean they don't know how to bend from the waist properly... :idea:



Gambarimasu.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



In CMA circles, you will see a huge variety of different kinds of bows, with different hand positions and meanings... Two people could bow nearly identically, yet have separate and distinct reasons for why they do what they do...

It is my understanding that the hand positions have varying meanings... Both hands palms together would refer to a pacifist who would not fight. One hand clenched in a fist, the other palm open (either wrapped around the fist, or held with the fingers and thumb extended and joined) represented a "fighting monk" or some such thing - a person who would resist fighting, but when pressed wouldn't be beyond busting a few heads... There is a hand position, right fist out as in a punch, left hand palm open, fingertips touching the right fist, thumb toward the ground (so the left hand is horizontal, little finger up, thumb down) was the salute to instigate a challenge match...

Sometimes the practitioner bows, sometimes he nods, sometimes he just stands there and presents his/her hands to you... At different CMA tournaments over the years, I have seen a lot of weird things. Whatever. To each their own...

Gambarimasu.

Okay, look at the post times .. we were both typing at the same
time. Also ..look at the posts before that, I tried to let it go.

Now let me apologize in kind, I'm sorry. I have a nasty temper
that I USUALLY don't let get the best of me, but I did this time
and again, in agreement with you, it was childish and made both
of us look bad. I'll try to handle myself more like an adult as
well, in the future! :asian: