Regular Sparring Sessions is a Go

[Juany118]

The issue you get. And you get it in boxing as well. If you chase a guy to desperately close distance. You can get your face smashed into hamburger. So you need alternate strategies so that when you do chase and jam he is not waiting for it.

This guy exploited the hell out of that particular problem.

I have seen that video before and it isn't exactly applicable. The reason why I say this is he seems to be using what mos would call "stereotypical" WC theory. The "school of thought" I follow, TWC, is often called "modified" but most other Lineages that claim Yip Man origin. As an example "fight on the blind side" where we try to move to the flank ourselves is seen as "wrong." If you watch the video I noted as well, the way you "jam" is with techniques that actually assume the other hand will be coming, some of which aren't that different than a western boxing "cover".

Ultimately the guy in the video you showed literally did the exact opposite of what Sifu Kieth said you should do in the video I linked. Likely why he got clobbered because he was thinking "dead straight ahead" which is NOT what the WC I study teaches you to do. If you go to 1:00 on my video you see Sifu Keith saying "don't do what the guy in Drop Bear's video did!"

As you say, you need to alternate if it doesn't succeed, BUT The video you linked doesn't even vaguely represent the idea I am talking about so I really don't know what to say in response. Tbh I thought you would dig Sifu Keith's ideas/tactics for the most part because it isn't what one stereotypically thinks of when they picture WC. He applies practical stuff to WC that he gains from his instruction of US Spec Ops and LE organizations ( Keith Mazza ) as he sees learning as a two way street, even in his "paid" seminars (a rare guy that way in my experience.)

I also, just for personal gratification, would love to know the name of the WC guy to see if he really is a "master". He does a lot of things wrong according to other lineages as well.

 

[drop bear]

I have seen that video before and it isn't exactly applicable. The reason why I say this is he seems to be using what mos would call "stereotypical" WC theory. The "school of thought" I follow, TWC, is often called "modified" but most other Lineages that claim Yip Man origin. As an example "fight on the blind side" where we try to move to the flank ourselves is seen as "wrong." If you watch the video I noted as well, the way you "jam" is with techniques that actually assume the other hand will be coming, some of which aren't that different than a western boxing "cover".

Ultimately the guy in the video you showed literally did the exact opposite of what Sifu Kieth said you should do in the video I linked. Likely why he got clobbered because he was thinking "dead straight ahead" which is NOT what the WC I study teaches you to do. If you go to 1:00 on my video you see Sifu Keith saying "don't do what the guy in Drop Bear's video did!"

As you say, you need to alternate if it doesn't succeed, BUT The video you linked doesn't even vaguely represent the idea I am talking about so I really don't know what to say in response. Tbh I thought you would dig Sifu Keith's ideas/tactics for the most part because it isn't what one stereotypically thinks of when they picture WC. He applies practical stuff to WC that he gains from his instruction of US Spec Ops and LE organizations ( Keith Mazza ) as he sees learning as a two way street, even in his "paid" seminars (a rare guy that way in my experience.)

I also, just for personal gratification, would love to know the name of the WC guy to see if he really is a "master". He does a lot of things wrong according to other lineages as well.

You know that old saying you walk in you are a black belt. Then you get punched in the face and you become a white belt. Wing chun guy was taken apart. He was never going to apply any principles regardless whether it was angles or straight lines. And was always going to look like a chump.

Just what happens when you get outclassed. His one method got shot down with that first left hook. And from there his only method was to repeat his failed approach.

Just the joy of sparring sometimes.

I dont have an issue with old mates method. I cant really use it because it is too complicated but i can see the idea.
It is the one tactic approach that will get you unstuck.

 

[Juany118]

You know that old saying you walk in you are a black belt. Then you get punched in the face and you become a white belt. Wing chun guy was taken apart. He was never going to apply any principles regardless whether it was angles or straight lines. And was always going to look like a chump.

Just what happens when you get outclassed. His one method got shot down with that first left hook. And from there his only method was to repeat his failed approach.

Just the joy of sparring sometimes.

I dont have an issue with old mates method. I cant really use it because it is too complicated but i can see the idea.
It is the one tactic approach that will get you unstuck.

My point was to say there is is not "one" type of WC, any more than there is one type of Karate, Jujutsu etc. The idea the "old mate" is getting across is that...
1. if you go in like that you need to somehow jam up the initial attack and shut it down while
2. making sure your "jam" covers you from the inevitable follow up from the other hand.

There are a multitude of ways to do it, and he mentions others he doesn't demonstrate. The main point I was doing was just trying to illustrate what I personally mean when I refer to "jamming", which is to tie up (and hopefully) set up one arm,while still covering the inevitable other hand which is coming. Initially some thought I meant going straight for a take down rather than simply entering for either striking or takedowns/controls. That was the point of the video.

If you aren't confident you can jam the "first" you don't go in like that. If you can jam the first but NOT while protecting your noodle from the other hand you also don't do it. The guy in your video hesitated more times than I could count and then went straight in like a shmoo when he bothered to go in over and over again regardless of success. To me that didn't even say anything about his style of WC but rather his training method... no pressure testing.

I think we will both agree that if he pressure tested during his training and got his bell rung a few times then (like we both do) he never would have done something so gosh darn silly. Or at least I hope so.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That cop example by the way was kind of tragic.

Unfortunately, it was the only video of a police officer defending against the takedown.

Yep, the guy in the red had him figured out in less than 42 seconds. When he landed that left looping hook. It was the same type of punch that knocked the guy down. It's clear to see the guy in the black shirt had no real strategy for someone that tall or with arms that long.

 

[Juany118]

To me that would be a soft technique because the technique isn't trying to go force against force. If you look closely you can see that the punch still comes out. You can also see the Sifu there step off center. The step off center is insurance because getting the timing down is always questionable. So if you mess up then it's better to be out of the way than to get by the punch. If this is what you already doing then you are using a "Soft technique"

In Jow Ga and I've seen in WC with Bong Sau, there is a jamming that goes force against force where the punch gets stuck. For me the jam works better on those who hesitate and the soft technique version works better on those who overcommit.

Okey doke. I can see that, I suppose it is semantics. When I think "soft" I am likely reflecting my previous Aikido back ground where anything you "go in" on rather than receive and/or redirect is "hard." Different perspective so different turn of phrase .

 

[JowGaWolf]

His one method got shot down with that first left hook. And from there his only method was to repeat his failed approach.

I should have red this first and it would have saved me some typing lol

 

[Juany118]

Unfortunately, it was the only video of a police officer defending against the takedown.

Yep, the guy in the red had him figured out in less than 42 seconds. When he landed that left looping hook. It was the same type of punch that knocked the guy down. It's clear to see the guy in the black shirt had no real strategy for someone that tall or with arms that long.

Sadly, you think TMA masters can be cagey about what they teach, the LE combative industry is such big business at this point videos get yanked for copyright infringement constantly so they can justify charging $1000.00 a head for 40 hours of training and then $750 for the annual recert.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When I think "soft" I am likely reflecting my previous Aikido back ground where anything you "go in" on rather than receive and/or redirect is "hard." Different perspective so different turn of phrase

CMA definition just means one is force vs force and the other is yielding to force.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sadly, you think TMA masters can be cagey about what they teach, the LE combative industry is such big business at this point videos get yanked for copyright infringement constantly so they can justify charging $1000.00 a head for 40 hours of training and then $750 for the annual recert.

ouch. Maybe I'm in the wrong business. I'm surprised that anyone can sue being that most of what they can also be found in TMA systems as well.

 

[Juany118]

CMA definition just means one is force vs force and the other is yielding to force.

I suppose that's what I get for mixing Burbon with Scotch in my training over the years

 

[JowGaWolf]

I suppose that's what I get for mixing Burbon with Scotch in my training over the years

The other instructor at my school drinks Burbon and Scotch. I wonder if anyone else in here drinks those 2 things.

 

[Juany118]

ouch. Maybe I'm in the wrong business. I'm surprised that anyone can sue being that most of what they can also be found in TMA systems as well.

I know right? I pay my own dime because my PD won't pay for unarmed combatives training, even a couple guys for a "train the trainer" course". Welcome to the world of "I want them well trained BUT mind the budget."

 

[Juany118]

The other instructor at my school drinks Burbon and Scotch. I wonder if anyone else in here drinks those 2 things.

I figure you know this but...

I meant them as a metaphor (one being Aikido where most anything "direct" means "hard" and CMA, my only experience there is YM WC first WSLVT via Gary Lam and now TWC via a student of Sifu Keith) but in terms of honest to goodness liquor they are both tasty as a drink

Aikido was my first TMA though, so as much as I try, what I learned there colors my language.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To me that would be a soft technique because the technique isn't trying to go force against force. If you look closely you can see that the punch still comes out. You can also see the Sifu there step off center. The step off center is insurance because getting the timing down is always questionable. So if you mess up then it's better to be out of the way than to get by the punch. If this is what you already doing then you are using a "Soft technique"

In Jow Ga and I've seen in WC with Bong Sau, there is a jamming that goes force against force where the punch gets stuck. For me the jam works better on those who hesitate and the soft technique version works better on those who overcommit.

Your definition of "hard" pretty well matches mine, JGW. I think of "soft" as anything that doesn't clash force-on-force or use mostly strength to execute a takedown (the latter is more subjective).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The issue you get. And you get it in boxing as well. If you chase a guy to desperately close distance. You can get your face smashed into hamburger. So you need alternate strategies so that when you do chase and jam he is not waiting for it.

This guy exploited the hell out of that particular problem.

This is one of those cases where what's needed for competition is different than the field, IMO. The guys Juany is dealing with probably aren't that patient, waiting for a prime opening. Probably not that well-trained or controlled, either.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I know right? I pay my own dime because my PD won't pay for unarmed combatives training, even a couple guys for a "train the trainer" course". Welcome to the world of "I want them well trained BUT mind the budget."

That, unfortunately, happens nearly everywhere. I talk to businesses all the time who are concerned their people don't have enough training, and then balk at paying more than a pittance for training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The other instructor at my school drinks Burbon and Scotch. I wonder if anyone else in here drinks those 2 things.

Never at the same time.

 

[drop bear]

This is one of those cases where what's needed for competition is different than the field, IMO. The guys Juany is dealing with probably aren't that patient, waiting for a prime opening. Probably not that well-trained or controlled, either.

Doesn't hurt to be able to deal with a quality fighter. It is not like it is a disadvantage in the street.

 

[Juany118]

This is one of those cases where what's needed for competition is different than the field, IMO. The guys Juany is dealing with probably aren't that patient, waiting for a prime opening. Probably not that well-trained or controlled, either.

This exactly. They aren't "fencing".

They are fighting hard and some are skilled, but the dynamics cause it to be all in out of the gate.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Doesn't hurt to be able to deal with a quality fighter. It is not like it is a disadvantage in the street.

No, but it's a different strategy, and likely one that's going to take time away from training on things that are more likely to occur in his world. This is one of those areas where prep for competition has a significant difference from prep for dealing with an out-of-control person.