sparring

[Twin Fist]

I dont do point sparring. Ok, that is not true. Point sparring is GREAT for building speed and focus. But thats about all. Unless you want to compete.

Our sparring is about endurance, mental conditioning, and developing "toughness"

doing kata for an hour might mean you are in shape, but fighting for an hour? you are in shape and you are TOUGH, it takes strength of will to get hit for an hour.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Sorry, gotta disagree there.. sparring is sparring.. if sportTKD is you thing, then yes its important.. if the Martial part of TKD is your thing, then sport sparring can play a role it that, but its still not the most important thing.


No.. the M in martial arts relates to Mars.. the god of war, not the god of competition which 99% of sparring in TKD relates to. Besides, much competition sparring still looks like dancing to me! :burp:

Many confuse sparring with fighting... they are not the same, sparring is sparring, a way of scoring points to win a competition... unless you do Traditional Sparring that is!!

That said, what ever forms of sparring are part of your school, then they should be practiced and polished as best as possible.. just dont fall into the trap of thinking its fighting!

Stuart

What's your tradational sparing Stuart? Full contact? No pads? Anything goes? Thunderdome rules?

See, short of no rules, it isn't a true fight (or 'war') as everyone has to hold back in some way to obey the rules. You do know UFC has lots of rules to, right?

There are many ways to spar and much can be learned from them all, from zero contact to full contact. It depends more on the mindset of the people sparing and what they intend to learn from the encounter.

In no contact I learn such as control of the technique and distance. Here is a real good place to practice combinations and 'daring' techniques you would be scared to do at full contact. As you get better with these techniques you migrate them to light contact and full contact as you gain confidence in them.

In light contact you learn distance judgement even better as well as application of some power. You start finding out what blocks are realistic and which are not to! And here you learn how to get inside one's guard (or really keep someone from getting inside your guard) as you tend to close the distance much more that in no contact.

Full contact you learn how to hit and be able to take a hit. You tend to lose lots of the finder points and fancy combinations here that you could have practiced in the no-contact portion till you had them down pat. But full contact gives you reality and helps you keep your wits about you to!

When I go full contact I wear a helmet (ok, I'm sissy) as well as shin and arm guards, gloves, cup, and mouthpiece. No contact or light contact I'll go bare. But when it comes to swinging in hard, one wears armor unless you like getting injuries.

And of course, if you wear such armor, why it isn't 'war' is it?

Deaf

 

[StuartA]

False dichotomy.

how so?

This is only really true if you go to a sport competition school.

Not really, most schools have a sport side, even more defence orientated ones.. so it relates to the sparring done within the school, no matter what type of school it is. If, when sparring it is based on whats required for competition (aka WTF Olympic, ITF Competition) then they are sparring in line with the common usage of the word nowadays... as when you say sparring.. it commonly relates to the sport style.. and thats why the term traditional sparring was coined.. as it allows sparring with traditional techniques and targets allowed.

the rest is defense and fighting oriented.

What does this entail out of interest?

Hardly traditional either, which seems to me relies a lot on one step and similar older sparring drills.

Sorry, you lost me there... one step is one step, not sparring.. are you talking of self defence related items or sparring itself (and drills are just that.. drills)

Cheers,

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

What's your tradational sparing Stuart? Full contact? No pads? Anything goes? Thunderdome rules?

Well, it seems you have answered for me.. however, Ill give my take on it anyway. As mentioned in the last post, the term Traditional sparring was coined to seperate it from the term sparring which is commonly associated with competition/sport style sparring. Trad Sparring allows traditional techniques (knees, elbows, low kicks, grabs, throws, sweeps, groin shots etc.).

Is it full contact... it can be, but only if they are a high level and decide thats how they want to do it, more commonly its medium or heavy contact.

No pads.. no, for safety reasons we use pads (on the hands only).. pads that enble the student to grip.

Anything goes.. yes.. within the realms of relatively safety. For example you can goe for the eyes ina gouging style but cant actually gouge them for safety reasons, low kicks are done hard, a throw is full force, striking is heavy, knees can finish your partner etc.

Thunderdome rules.. I dont know what that is so cant say!!

See, short of no rules, it isn't a true fight

Hence why its called sparring, not fighting. Its one of the closest forms of sparring you can train in relative safety thats akin to street fighting. Because the bottom line is that students come to train and this is simply a form of training, closer to reality than other forms of sparring.

as everyone has to hold back in some way to obey the rules.

Well actually, the holding back isnt to obey the rules but to keep it safe. To me a rule in sparring refers to "no sweeping" etc., and thats restrictive, safety is a common sense issue really. But I agree, technically you can call it a rule for those without common sense or big egos :lol:

You do know UFC has lots of rules to, right?

Really.. I didnt know that!! :idunno: Whats UFC got to do with it anyway. I am refering to a form of Taekwon-do sparring.

There are many ways to spar and much can be learned from them all

Never said there wasnt.. or that other forms arnt beneficial.. just that most types are pretty far removed from fighting.

It depends more on the mindset of the people sparing and what they intend to learn from the encounter.

|Moreso its limitations!

Stuart

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well lets face it, afther a long retirement from TKD now that I return I feel fear, yes I have to admit it, I feel fear evreytime I have to spar cause my timing is bad, I don't react quickly, and if you don't react fast you will kick and this can hurt. I know with the time,practice and improving of my timing I will be more acurated on my kicks and on my moves to avoid the kick coming to me.

Yes in sparring you won't die, you will be hurt cause it's full contact and as long as you can kick you will have kick or kicks in return.

Something I feel it helps is before to start sparring is yelling very loud, this charged the body on adrenaline and takes the worries away, and with every kick try to yell cause this can hep you to take not so badly the counterkicks of your oponent.

Next saturday will be a torunament, I will not compete, cause I have no cardio resistence and won't survive against a black belt that competes in a regulary basis but, I will go to see and to learn, let's see how's TKD has evolved since my golden days.

Manny

Focus on your timing, distance and technique. Your reaction speed will improve with time, but timing and correct technique are the most important and distance is absolutely one of the most important things that you can master. A good sense of distance will enable you to keep a fast opponent at a range where you can deal with him. Timing will enable you to do deal with a fast opponent, but without a good distance sense, you will not get the returns you seek from timing alone. Sparing with people of different sizes and different speed levels will help you to establish a good sense of distance.

Hope that helps you.

Best wishes,

Daniel

 

[Deaf Smith]

Stuart,

The thing is, even such a rough 'sport' as UFC has rules and is not at all true self defense (I'll dig up the rules, but I'll just say there are a bunch of things like eye gouging, biteing, stomping, etc.. you can't do. Takes the fun out of it I tell you.

I've seen WTF TKD sparring methods. The actual kicks I kind of like for certian situations. The hand methods, or lack of them, is pithetic, but I can say they do have power in their kicks and are very fast. I intend on learning their methods and adding them to my toolbox.

Every art, or sub-art, has some good things you can pick up. And since I'm a JKDist at heart, I tend to 'pick what is useful, discard what is useless' for myself.

Deaf

 

[StuartA]

Stuart,

The thing is, even such a rough 'sport' as UFC has rules and is not at all true self defense

I never said it was, in fact I believe as rough and tough as UFC is, it still sport. In fact, I never even mentioned UFC.. you did. Trad Sparring has nothing to do with UFC!!! Also, I dont see Trad Sparring as self defence on its only, just one part of it, usually the part that it ends up in when the self protection and self defence work has gone wrong!

I've seen WTF TKD sparring methods. The actual kicks I kind of like for certian situations.

No doubt and again, my point was not that certain sparring types do not hold benefits, just that to believe they are fighting (the M in martial bit from an earlier post) is not only wrong, but misleading and dangerous for the student.

Stuart

 

[Deaf Smith]

stuart,

They are training for fighting. It's just there are many steps to train to fight. I most certianly think I train for fighting, and I do spar no contact as well as contact. What is more, my training partner kicks for my legs just to keep me on my toes (somewhat literaly.)

Oh guys, the UFC... they sure take the fun out of fighting!

1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Deaf

 

[StuartA]

They are training for fighting.

I really hate getting into these UFC discussions as it often looks like I dont like it or dont feel they are tough or something... when I do.. they are tough guys, but they are also paid lots of money to train that way and the bottom line is as you say, except for the missing words: They are training for fighting the UFC rule set - ie they are training to fight in a competition based on the rules. Secondly, the UFC fighters are not the everyday students.. in my dojang all 4th kups and above (over 16) do traditional sparring!

It's just there are many steps to train to fight. I most certianly think I train for fighting, and I do spar no contact as well as contact.

Contact sparring is good and helpful, but even contact doesnt equate to reality. WTF Olympic sparring is a tough full contact sparring format, its far removed from fighting though.. in fact its almost a different skill set altogethor (and yes, i have done it too in case anyone is wondering)

What is more, my training partner kicks for my legs just to keep me on my toes (somewhat literaly.)

Does he sweep, grab, throw too? Just a question.. Im not saying your sparring is wrong/bad.. again (for the Nth time), I feel it is wrong to equate/mistake various forms of sparring and claim they are fighting.. when they are clearly not, however, if SD is the important thing then the closer we get the better IMO.

Oh guys, the UFC... they sure take the fun out of fighting!

Okay.. I repeat. UFC/MMA isnt the same as Traditional Sparring. The focus and mindsets are completely different. Trad sparring can be done full contcat if you wish to.. yes, but mostly its done medium to heavy contact no-ones getting $50,000 per fight and most have to get up for work the next day. In Trad sparring you can do stuff thats not full contact and still make the point. As an example, a student of mind tried a leg take-down, my resonse was to tap them a few times on there back with my tri-cep.. ie. I simulated an elbow strike to the spine.. the fact that Trad Sparring is a learning enviroment makes all the difference.. that cant be done in a UFC match. I have also lightly headbutted and been headbutted myself, as well as bite and been bitten.. in the Trad sparring the bite was just enough to score a release, in the real world i would have kept on going.. these are the differences, the mindset I speak off.

Anyway, as you have compiled the list.. I will bold out the things that are allowed in Trad sparring (again with mind set I mention to ensure they are perfromed in reasonibly safe conditions)

1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Deaf[/quote]

As I said above.. the ones bolded have to be done in context.. UFC does allow this as its literally full contact or nothing, trad sparring does!! You can say "oh, you cant do that full out so its not like a real fight" but if I wanted a real fight Id go to a pub and cal everyone a tosser, that said, i want my training to as closely simulate it as I can and still drive home after class... Chan t'ong matsogi furfils that criteria.. other forms of sparring (though enjoyable - and I do them too) do not!


As an interesting aside, I got a student of a 1st generation pioneer to ask him if he did similar sparring.. I acnt remember now if it was Kim bok Man or JC Kim.. but the pioneers reply was something like "of course.. only a fool would limit them selves to a few limb strike"

Stuart

 

[Deaf Smith]

i want my training to as closely simulate it as I can and still drive home after class.

Me to, Stuart, me to.

Deaf

 

[StuartA]

Me to, Stuart, me to.

Deaf

Which takes us full circle! Most forms of sparring simulate a competitive enviroment, where the aim is to win by amassing the most points with the techniques and target areas prescribed in the ruleset.. the more limited this is, the further it becomes removed from fighting. Most clubs do not push the boundries beyond the prescribed competitive format.. which is fine.. until people start believing that what they are doing is the same as fighting as in the post I first responded to!

BTW, I dont have any issues with competition sparring or those that enjoy if for what it is.. I have done a bit myself over the years, I just feel the distinction is an important one and one the average student doesnt make or doesnt know/realise.

Stuart

 

[Deaf Smith]

Well Stuart,

As Marc MacYoung wrote, there are four reasons people take the martial arts. 1) self defense/combat, 2) the physical art/tradiition/discipline, 3) spiritital/health, and 4) sports aspect.

Most go for '2','3',and '4' way more than '1'. That's just a fact. Very very few take it just for '1' and those that do sure don't learn any language or traditons or philosophy (which to me is a major benifit.) I take it for pretty much all four! And I only became real serious about SD when I started teaching CHL classes and was kind of forced to become more street wise back in '92.

If a student is counseled by their instructor as to what is usefull in SD and what is not, then the student will differentate between the two. If the student does not know this, well as Miyamoto Musashi would say, 'they failed to study the matter sufficently' (and the best quote, "Immature strategy is the cause of much grief.") It's up to the student and why they are taking the martial arts.

Neither you nor I can read the students minds. All we can do is let them grow and find out. I found out, and I'm sure most do.

Deaf

 

[StuartA]

Most go for '2','3',and '4' way more than '1'. That's just a fact.

Wheres the source for this fact please?
I know I took up martial arts for 1 & 2 of your list, 3 and 4 were the extra benefits!

Very very few take it just for '1'

I dont agree, think the image of martial arts teaching someone how to defend oneself is in the forefront of most new students minds.. moreso than doing it as a sport! Though this is just my thoughts and impressions over the years... though I reckon if I asked this to all my students most woudl pick 1, some 2, a few number 3 and only the odd person number 4!

If a student is counseled by their instructor as to what is usefull in SD and what is not, then the student will differentate between the two.

Firstly, the whole point of me posting what I did is because instructors dont do that... when instructors are refering to sport sparring as the same as fighting they are not doing that. Secondly, "you fight as you train", so even being able to make the disctinction between what is SD applicable and what isnt doesnt help that much as the body will still react as its trained.. if the mind set is a belief that that is fighting, when in fact its sport MA.. then big trouble is ahead and probibly lots of grief for the student.

If the student does not know this, well as Miyamoto Musashi would say, 'they failed to study the matter sufficently'

Actually, Id say they have been failed to be taught correctly. If its made clear that the sparring is sport, it not akin to fighting and the club dont dot hat sort of thing, then fine.. but rarely is this the case.

Neither you nor I can read the students minds. All we can do is let them grow and find out. I found out, and I'm sure most do.

Theres no need to read anyones mind.. information like that should be offered, then a student can make the decision what is and whats not for them. Theres no mystical awakenings needed.. if a student has come to a martial art school with SD in mind, then they should be taught that first & foremost or their training should be geared in that direction, they shouldnt be led to believe that sport sparring is akin to real fighting! And sorry, but thats what i read in the former posts and hence why I responded! If i read it wrong I apologise.

Stuart

 

[Deaf Smith]

Stuart,

Never heard of Marc 'Animal' MacYoung? He was a bouncer as well as martial artist. Wrote many books (as did his friend, Peyton Quinn, who runs RCMP in Colorado.)

Research those guys and the ones they hang out with.

Deaf

 

[StuartA]

Stuart,

Never heard of Marc 'Animal' MacYoung?

I know who Marc MacYoung is.. sorry, somehow I missed the "as Marc MacYoung wrote".. anyway, what I meant was is that his opinion or has there actually been some proper research that have concluded those results ie. they are fact, not opinion.. as it may be that way in the US or something (though I dont see why it would be), but its not that way in the UK. Hell, I never knew there was a martial arts sports scene until after I started, but still, things might have changed since then.

So Deaf.. why did you take up martial arts and how did you view it then?
Same to others.. did you take up martial arts for self defense/combat, the physical art/tradiition/discipline or spiritital/health or the sport aspect.

Stuart

 

[Deaf Smith]

I know who Marc So Deaf.. why did you take up martial arts and how did you view it then?
Same to others.. did you take up martial arts for self defense/combat, the physical art/tradiition/discipline or spiritital/health or the sport aspect.
Stuart

Stuart,

Back when I was in college (SFA, Nacogodoches Texas), I saw this guy in the gym with a green belt and green collar. I went, hmmmm and being a shooter already I decided to join the class (I thought HE was the teacher... well that's how little I knew about karate or the martial arts.)

Not sure why I joined. It wasn't a crying need to defend myself that was for sure as I was in the old old IPSC walk-n-draw stuff back then and aways thought more of the gun than the fist. But after the first few lessons I kind of liked it so much I just kept coming (even though $20 a month was a strain for us poor college students.) So maybe it was reason #2,3, and 4.

Self defense (reason #1) did not really enter the picture till in 1992 the CHL law was introduced in Texas and I became one of the first to become a CHL instructor. That's when I got more serious not only with SD in general but combat shooting in particular. I'm not bad with my hands and feet but I'm even better with a gun.

And it's why I've studied TKD (my base), boxing, JDK, Krav Maga, and now SBD. When I'm finished with SBD I'm thinking of taking Goju-ryu as there is one close by. But it far more for #2 reason than anything else.

Deaf

 

[StuartA]

Reason 2 is a decent reason and my main one too strangly enough. I dont believe reason 4 carries much weight honestly. And as much as i respect Marc MacYoung its still his opinion, with no actual checking, so i stand by what I feel and have seen myself! In fact i believe sport to be the bottom reason of anyone starting a martial art, though I believe there will be some of course!

Anyway, whats the CHL law?


Finally, look for any definition of what martial art is (in decent texts) and I bet they dont emntion... its a sport!

Stuart

Ps. This looking to be a personal conversation.. anyone else have some views?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Anyway, whats the CHL law?

Concealed Handgun License. In Texas I teach this class. It is required by the state in order for anyone to get a license to carry a concealed handgun. 10 hr. minumum class on subjects such as the laws on carrying, deadly force laws, non-violent confict resolution, safe storage and handling, shooting, and other things. Each student has to pass a written test (state mandated) as well as qualify with a handgun (also state mandated test.)

Since I got into that, I changed to focusing on pure self defense skills way way more than anything. The force continuum pretty much shows one needs more options than just a gun, or smile, or both. H2H skills are needed as well as verbal skills and weapons skills. And thus, I became more intested in such skills as opposed to the martial arts for the art itself.

And that brings me back to sparring, the purpose of this thread.

Now the sports aspect, #4. Look at how many MacDojos there are and how many have all kinds of trophies in their windows (from sport competiton no less) and you will see alot of people get into it for sports as well as the other reason. It's fun and very exciting to get into the ring, even in a light contact match, and blaze away.

Just keep in mind many people go into the arts for multiple reasons, and rarely for just one reason.

Deaf

 

[StuartA]

Concealed Handgun License.

thanks for the info. in the UK we cant carry guns or anything for that matter, so my SP courses teach about incidental weapons instead!

And thus, I became more intested in such skills as opposed to the martial arts for the art itself.

Or the sport side huh!

And that brings me back to sparring, the purpose of this thread.

Now the sports aspect, #4. Look at how many MacDojos there are and how many have all kinds of trophies in their windows (from sport competiton no less) and you will see alot of people get into it for sports as well as the other reason.

Okay.. well this is where our differing viewpoints come from. In the Uk there are few places like this as most instructors do not have full time premises, and ths, nowhere to put such stuff. Furthermore, even clubs that focus on the sport side advertise with "Self defence" in their literature to attract students!

quote]It's fun and very exciting to get into the ring, even in a light contact match, and blaze away.[/quote]
I agree.. but in the UK its not used very much to attract students!

Just keep in mind many people go into the arts for multiple reasons, and rarely for just one reason.

Again, i never said they didnt, just that I dont feel that the sport reason would outweigh the SD reasoning!

Which still doesn't change the POV that saying sport sparring is SD based or likening it to a fight is right/correct.. in fact its totally wrong and saying such things instills a false belief that will get a student seriously hurt or worse!


Stuart

 

[Deaf Smith]

Stuart,

I didn't know you were in the UK. I can understand you view now! How I missed 'London' is beyond me! Over here lots of 'masters' teach karate for a living (most don't make much, but there are alot of them!) And you see much watered down stuff here.

And unlike what many people think, there really isn't all that much crime here or fights (yes Texas, were everyone owns a gun.) Were I live I haven't see ANY crime myself in 30 + years. Read of it, but never seen it. Had to go to the Virgin Islands to see a purse snaching! And the city I'm in has well over 100,000 people.

I can see why you take it more seriously than most since it's pretty much all you have to defend yourself with, at least if you obey the laws, cause criminals, well by definition don't obey laws!

Stay safe and practice much!

Deaf