Recreation of the application of forms

[MI_martialist]

Well, actually, I agree...the usage that is understood is incorrect. Without bunkai (analysis), there is no way to extract anything from kata...Bunkai is the analysis of the movements to understand application, principles, etc.

So, as I said...
When translating, especially languages as dissimilar as Japanese and English, literal translations are often not very helpful. Context and concepts are key.

 

[VPT]

In fact not. As explained to me by a senior Seibukan practitioner, the bunkai is usually just the apparent meaning of a given technique, e.g. a simple gedan-barai -> bunkai = a kick receiver; ōyō = hammerfist to the nuts. A single bunkai, multiple applications.

 

[VPT]

I've always wondered why Abernethy has not even attempted to train in an Okinawan style, where "traditional kata application" has mostly not been forgotten.

 

[hoshin1600]

I've always wondered why Abernethy has not even attempted to train in an Okinawan style, where "traditional kata application" has mostly not been forgotten.

because he has become famous based on his "practical application" to point to Okinawa karate would be to give away his thunder.

 

[MI_martialist]

It may be the way it is used, but that is not the intent of the word. It took, umm, ANALYSIS to discover this...

In fact not. As explained to me by a senior Seibukan practitioner, the bunkai is usually just the apparent meaning of a given technique, e.g. a simple gedan-barai -> bunkai = a kick receiver; ōyō = hammerfist to the nuts. A single bunkai, multiple applications.

 

[lklawson]

Abernethy’s karate is traditional but his bunkai application is not.
His application knowledge of the original intent of kata is probably as accurate as our own understanding of how the Egyptians built the pyramids.

There are two schools of thought on karate kata.
(A)BUNKAI BASED KATA...
the movements within the kata are a recreation of fighting actions and have a specific and defined application.
The belief is the kata is a catalog of specific techniques established by the kata creator through observation of what is effective in combat.

(B)..PRINCIPAL & MECHANICS KATA
The movement patterns within the kata are an abstract representation that reflect all the possibilities of human movement in combat.
The belief is that the kata creator through observation over time and over a multitude of combative exchanges, extracted and distilled the most effective and most applicable principles and mechanics, to a small number of movements that can be used in the largest number of applications.


The truth may be somewhere in the middle but like most politics people choose a side and a cause and defend their position with an unwavering adherence.

I've seen so many different descriptions of what Kata actually are that I've kinda lost count. Way more than two. Besides bunkai and principles, I've heard it is a technique "library," I've heard a choreography of a fight, I've heard all kinds of things. Trying to nail it down to any one thing is impossible.

Ask 5 different martial artists what the purpose of Kata is and you'll get 10 answers. ...if you're lucky you'll only get 10.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[hoshin1600]

I've seen so many different descriptions of what Kata actually are that I've kinda lost count. Way more than two. Besides bunkai and principles, I've heard it is a technique "library," I've heard a choreography of a fight, I've heard all kinds of things. Trying to nail it down to any one thing is impossible.

Ask 5 different martial artists what the purpose of Kata is and you'll get 10 answers. ...if you're lucky you'll only get 10.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

later down the thread i did say that there may be more ideas or ones that are more nuanced.
however my division i think still holds true. your examples of a library or an imaginary fight, for the purpose of this bunkai discussion seem to fit into my "Bunkai based kata definition. my divisions are broken down to motivational reasons for the development of kata and applications. thats not to say there are not other reasons outside of this for doing kata. as an example i use kata as a visualisation tool for operant conditioning/ hard wiring responses in the brain. but that application of kata requires a single bunkai meaning for a single move which falls under the bunkai based definition.

it really boils down to
(A) a single meaning for each movement
(B) multiple meanings for each movement

you really cant breakdown the concept of bunkai any further than that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Abernethy’s karate is traditional but his bunkai application is not.
His application knowledge of the original intent of kata is probably as accurate as our own understanding of how the Egyptians built the pyramids.

There are two schools of thought on karate kata.
(A)BUNKAI BASED KATA...
the movements within the kata are a recreation of fighting actions and have a specific and defined application.
The belief is the kata is a catalog of specific techniques established by the kata creator through observation of what is effective in combat.

(B)..PRINCIPAL & MECHANICS KATA
The movement patterns within the kata are an abstract representation that reflect all the possibilities of human movement in combat.
The belief is that the kata creator through observation over time and over a multitude of combative exchanges, extracted and distilled the most effective and most applicable principles and mechanics, to a small number of movements that can be used in the largest number of applications.


The truth may be somewhere in the middle but like most politics people choose a side and a cause and defend their position with an unwavering adherence.

I'd go so far as to say the answer is almost certainly a bit of both. There are going to be some exact movements/techniques in there, and some movements that were added to be used later - sort of, "Okay, for this next technique, you'll be starting from that 7th position in the kata, and using the next movement to transition to the 3rd position..."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I may be crazy and delusional.

Second.

Oh, wait...that wasn't the point of your thread, was it?

 

[MI_martialist]

Everyone has an opinion, but fact is fact...Bunkai is the analysis in order to understand and discover application and fundamentals to perfect the application.

The other 9 or so answers well...

I've seen so many different descriptions of what Kata actually are that I've kinda lost count. Way more than two. Besides bunkai and principles, I've heard it is a technique "library," I've heard a choreography of a fight, I've heard all kinds of things. Trying to nail it down to any one thing is impossible.

Ask 5 different martial artists what the purpose of Kata is and you'll get 10 answers. ...if you're lucky you'll only get 10.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[MI_martialist]

There is nothing in a kata that does not reveal application and fundamentals to perform the application.

I'd go so far as to say the answer is almost certainly a bit of both. There are going to be some exact movements/techniques in there, and some movements that were added to be used later - sort of, "Okay, for this next technique, you'll be starting from that 7th position in the kata, and using the next movement to transition to the 3rd position..."

 

[MI_martialist]

Is it not pretty much impossible, and wrong, to attribute a single meaning to any movement in a kata? That is like memorizing formula to recall them later on rather then understanding how the formula is created to use it as needed.

Let's take a lunge, circle step into front stance. No one can say that there is only 1 meaning for that movement. Well, they can....

later down the thread i did say that there may be more ideas or ones that are more nuanced.
however my division i think still holds true. your examples of a library or an imaginary fight, for the purpose of this bunkai discussion seem to fit into my "Bunkai based kata definition. my divisions are broken down to motivational reasons for the development of kata and applications. thats not to say there are not other reasons outside of this for doing kata. as an example i use kata as a visualisation tool for operant conditioning/ hard wiring responses in the brain. but that application of kata requires a single bunkai meaning for a single move which falls under the bunkai based definition.

it really boils down to
(A) a single meaning for each movement
(B) multiple meanings for each movement

you really cant breakdown the concept of bunkai any further than that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is nothing in a kata that does not reveal application and fundamentals to perform the application.

You seem quite sure of that. Designed in every kata? Not true. In some kata? Possible. In most kata, we don’t know the original intent. We can find those things in any portion of a kata, but we may be synthesizing what was not originally intended. Note that his doesn’t make it wrong - I’m a fan of finding new uses for existing training tools.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is it not pretty much impossible, and wrong, to attribute a single meaning to any movement in a kata? That is like memorizing formula to recall them later on rather then understanding how the formula is created to use it as needed.

Let's take a lunge, circle step into front stance. No one can say that there is only 1 meaning for that movement. Well, they can....

That depends upon the kata.

 

[lklawson]

Everyone has an opinion, but fact is fact...

Yup and the fact is that the experts across the martial arts spectrum can't agree on the purpose of kata. That's my point.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yup and the fact is that the experts across the martial arts spectrum can't agree on the purpose of kata. That's my point.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

In fairness, many of them do agree ... that everyone else is doing it wrong.

 

[Flying Crane]

In fairness, many of them do agree ... that everyone else is doing it wrong.

True, that.

The longer I do this stuff, the more I realize that’s there can be interpretations of this stuff that are in direct conflict with each other and yet, if it gets results for those doing it, then it’s hard to say it’s wrong.

There is no single truth for this stuff. There are only interpretations based on what and how well someone understands something.

 

[skribs]

later down the thread i did say that there may be more ideas or ones that are more nuanced.
however my division i think still holds true. your examples of a library or an imaginary fight, for the purpose of this bunkai discussion seem to fit into my "Bunkai based kata definition. my divisions are broken down to motivational reasons for the development of kata and applications. thats not to say there are not other reasons outside of this for doing kata. as an example i use kata as a visualisation tool for operant conditioning/ hard wiring responses in the brain. but that application of kata requires a single bunkai meaning for a single move which falls under the bunkai based definition.

it really boils down to
(A) a single meaning for each movement
(B) multiple meanings for each movement

you really cant breakdown the concept of bunkai any further than that.

I mean, even within a single technique you can have a single meaning or multiple meanings. Some backfist techniques can resemble the Taekwondo outside block, so much that the same motion can be used for either.

Similarly, a knife-hand block can lead to a grab, be chained into a chop or a palm strike, or you can block with one hand while striking with the other. It can be used to push a straight punch away from you or to push a cross punch further across your body (i.e. right block pushes the opponent's left hand away, vs. right block pushing opponent's right arm across your body). Each of these applications would lead to various follow-ups.

At my Taekwondo school, we learn rote patterns, but we also train freestyle technique combinations to allow our students to chain different things together. Similarly, in my Hapkido class, at white belt we learn the proper order of techniques in a completely scripted fashion, but as we go up in belts we're supposed to learn how to chain different joint lock concepts together. That way when you throw someone and it doesn't quite work, or maybe they don't land the way you were expecting, you can transition into something else.

For example, we might have a joint lock where you're supposed to use a Figure 4 type lock, if they won't let you bend the arm for the Figure 4 you can transition into an arm bar. Another example is if you throw someone and expect them to land on their stomach, where you would break the wrist using one finishing technique, but they land on their back you have to improvise into another. As a white belt I was usually fairly lost, but as an orange belt I'm starting to get the hang of improvising.

Now, this is someone who doesn't take Karate, but I would imagine it works both ways for the Karate katas as well. There is probably a specific meaning that whoever created the form had in mind, but lots of applications you can get out of it.

 

[MI_martialist]

Let me clarify a little bit...I am most certainly not talking about the modern, gymnastic, shuffle the feet, and throw the arms out type of "kata". In fact, they are great displays of gymnastics and athletic ability, and I am sure I can come up with something, but...I don't even consider those as kata.

That depends upon the kata.

 

[MI_martialist]

If there is a single meaning, there cannot be multiple, and vice versa. Every movement has multiple applications, and every sub-movement within each movement has multiple applications.

I mean, even within a single technique you can have a single meaning or multiple meanings. Some backfist techniques can resemble the Taekwondo outside block, so much that the same motion can be used for either.

Similarly, a knife-hand block can lead to a grab, be chained into a chop or a palm strike, or you can block with one hand while striking with the other. It can be used to push a straight punch away from you or to push a cross punch further across your body (i.e. right block pushes the opponent's left hand away, vs. right block pushing opponent's right arm across your body). Each of these applications would lead to various follow-ups.

At my Taekwondo school, we learn rote patterns, but we also train freestyle technique combinations to allow our students to chain different things together. Similarly, in my Hapkido class, at white belt we learn the proper order of techniques in a completely scripted fashion, but as we go up in belts we're supposed to learn how to chain different joint lock concepts together. That way when you throw someone and it doesn't quite work, or maybe they don't land the way you were expecting, you can transition into something else.

For example, we might have a joint lock where you're supposed to use a Figure 4 type lock, if they won't let you bend the arm for the Figure 4 you can transition into an arm bar. Another example is if you throw someone and expect them to land on their stomach, where you would break the wrist using one finishing technique, but they land on their back you have to improvise into another. As a white belt I was usually fairly lost, but as an orange belt I'm starting to get the hang of improvising.

Now, this is someone who doesn't take Karate, but I would imagine it works both ways for the Karate katas as well. There is probably a specific meaning that whoever created the form had in mind, but lots of applications you can get out of it.