Was Funakoshi Gichin a "sell out"?

[caped crusader]

Considering that Shotokan spawned Kyokushin and Machida Karate, he did something right.

Wado Ryu too... with Ju jitsu

 

[isshinryuronin]

Considering that Shotokan spawned Kyokushin and Machida Karate, he did something right.

Not knocking Funakoshi, but just noting a couple of things:

Modern shotokan is much different than the one Funakoshi developed and taught pre-WWII, as he, himself, stated with some remorse before his death.

Most of kyokushin founder Oyama's training was goju karate.

 

[Hanzou]

Not knocking Funakoshi, but just noting a couple of things:

Modern shotokan is much different than the one Funakoshi developed and taught pre-WWII, as he, himself, stated with some remorse before his death.

Most of kyokushin founder Oyama's training was goju karate.

You called him a “sell out”. I would consider that a “knock”.

While he spent more time in Goju, Kyokushin contains kata from both. I’m also pretty sure the Goju he practiced was more the Japanese (aka “watered down”) variant instead of the more traditional Okinawan style.

And of course there’s Machida style….

 

[caped crusader]

so what was the main difference in the Japanese Goju ryu from the "Cat"

 

[caped crusader]

 

[isshinryuronin]

You called him a “sell out”. I would consider that a “knock”.

I DID NOT.
I posed the question, "Was Funakoshi a sell out?" to open up discussion on this remarkable man and his legacy as his story had various effects on the art of karate.
Perhaps your enthusiasm for him kept you from differentiating a statement from a question.

 

[Hanzou]

I DID NOT.

I posed the question, "Was Funakoshi a sell out?" to open up discussion on this remarkable man and his legacy as his story had various effects on the art of karate.

Perhaps your bias kept you from differentiating a statement from a question.

You posed a rhetorical question on the grounds that he supposedly “watered down” Okinawan karate for the Japanese masses. Again, that’s knocking his achievements, and showing a bias towards “traditional” karate.

 

[isshinryuronin]

You posed a rhetorical question on the grounds that he supposedly “watered down” Okinawan karate for the Japanese masses. Again, that’s knocking his achievements, and showing a bias towards “traditional” karate.

Your critical thinking process is messed up. I have repeatedly praised him and his abilities and I am an advocate of traditional karate. Just for a moment, Hanzou, try to be objective and see things for what they are. Mizu no kokoro.

 

[Hanzou]

Your critical thinking process is messed up. I have repeatedly praised him and his abilities and I am an advocate of traditional karate. Just for a moment, Hanzou, try to be objective and see things for what they are. Mizu no kokoro.

You start a thread questioning whether Funakoshi is a sell out to Okinawan karate and then proceed to explain how he watered it down for the Japanese. When I point out that you’re knocking Funakoshi, you say that MY critical thinking skills are messed up for even suggesting such a thing…..

Okay bud, carry on….

 

[isshinryuronin]

You start a thread questioning whether Funakoshi is a sell out to Okinawan karate and then proceed to explain how he watered it down for the Japanese. When I point out that you’re knocking Funakoshi, you say that MY critical thinking skills are messed up for even suggesting such a thing…..

Okay bud, carry on….

None is so blind as he who refuses to see.

 

[caped crusader]

what i disliked about shotokan was all the deep stances. I know they stand higher with fighting but i hated the low snail like stances. maybe they mean it to strenghten your lower body and i never understood it. I liked Wado much better. Indeed as was wrote on this thread the original shotokan had much higher stances in kata.

 

[caped crusader]

I remember i spoke to Suzuki Sensei in the UK and spoke about shotokan and "Oyama Karate". He said, only with power. talking about the 2 mentioned styles. I might come over as a ranting macho but i liked the Wado Ryu principles of yielding and attacking. very nice style.

 

[caped crusader]

I still have a letter from him.

 

[isshinryuronin]

what i disliked about shotokan was all the deep stances. I know they stand higher with fighting

This is a good example of how kata, kumite and kihon have diverged in some styles (and in some schools within a given style) over the years when once they were much in accord with each other. Originally, they were one and the same, coming to be seen as individual things only at the beginning of the 20th century.

Why should the stance in kumite be higher than in kata? The higher stance gives more agility and speed. Lower stances help build leg strength, but for this, why not just practice the kihon (basic drills) in a lower stance and keep the higher stance in kata? After all, kata is supposed to simulate actual combat.

There is no doubt that the low stances look more dramatic in competition. I, once performed a "great" kata in a tournament, but didn't even place. Asking one of the judges, "Why?" he answered, "Your stances were too high." (This was before I realized the lack of understanding some judges had and the need to "play" to them for scoring.)

So between competition and the progressive separation in thinking of how kata relates to kumite, the style of performing each became different in many cases. IMO, kata, kumite and kihon should be practiced following the same principles. They should not be viewed as three separate things, but different ways of practicing the same thing.

The exception is that some techniques in kata deal with a specific kind of attack that one won't often find in kumite, and thus will use a unique stance one would not normally use in a fight. Also, in basic kihon, I see no problem in drilling with exaggerated form as form is the first thing to go in combat. But it should be realized that doing it that way is just for practice.

So, my view (and there may be valid contrary views) is that the 3 K's should be unified and taught as similarly as possible.

 

[EJC]

His time predates the wearing of a gi and even the name "karate", itself.

唐手 (pronounced: kara - te; also, to - de): prior to the Japanese nationalist fervor of the early 20th century; meaning: China (Tang) hand

空手 (pronounced: kara - te): adopted so the martial art could be assimilated into Japanese culture during this nationalistic fervor; meaning: empty hand

 

[Hot Lunch]

I moved from Shorin-ryu to Shotokan. The differences between the katas (lower stances, etc, etc) were apparently implemented by Gigo, not Gichin himself. As for everything else? I'm not sure if it was all Gichin's or Gigo's doing.

Someone previously said that he dabbled mostly in Goju-ryu. That's not true. He dabbled in Shorei-ryu, which was another name for Naha-te at the time (he discussed this in books). Goju-ryu came after that. But Funakoshi was mostly Shuri-te/Shorin-ryu, which is what he was a godan in.

If Funakoshi ruined or watered down karate, then that should have only affected Shotokan and the styles that came from it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Gishin Funakoshi only wanted step sparring.

This does not surprise me. As we know, early karate was concerned with combat techniques capable of catastrophic damage, so freestyle sparring using the then predominant joint breaks and other unpleasant things would not have been condusive to long term practice. Motobu engaged in freestyle sparring, but then again, many of his students left due to injuries. He was a tough S.O.B.

Funakoshi later lamented the growing overemphasis on sport and the changes in karate it required and longed for the return of "...this exquisite Art from the Emerald Seas (Okinawa)." It's ironic that he was a catalyst for this change by popularizing the art in the public schools which led to karate's "sportification." A case of unintended consequences?