Recieving rank or earning rank

[terryl965]

There is a big difference in my opinion on recieving a rank and earning a rank. To me recieving a rank because you believe you was passed up or forgotten about is not a good reason to recieve a rank like the USAT is doing. Many people may believe they deserve a rank but it is the instructor that needs to make that distrinction before you earn the rank.

I believe when you earn the rank though hard work and dedication is always the best policy. Please do not get these confuse with the people that never recieved there rank by instructors that have cheated them out of it. I also know that people that have ben giving rank in other arts just because of there name, what does that really mean getting something for doing nothing what does that say to all the people that have sweated and bleed for that same rank.

Ok I am off my soapbox and will what for the replies and go from there.

 

[IcemanSK]

This reminds me of the time period when I trained with the Karate folks at the rec center where I eventually began my TKD program. The instructor was a 7th Dan & the #2 man in his system. He was, and is, a good friend. He was very simpathetic to my plight of being screwed years before by a former instructor.

One day he just told me, "I'll give you your 3rd Dan." While I thought it was a nice gesture & his heart was certainly coming from a good place, I wasn't gonna accept a 3rd Dan in an Art I had only trained in for a few months. I declined politely & tested more than a year later under my instructor in my Art.

 

[Miles]

I have started from white belt several times in striking arts after earning my first TKD black belt. It is actually liberating in the sense that you have nothing to prove, you are just a beginning student in that particular system.

I think Iceman's friend was making a wonderful gesture but he did the appropriate thing by politely declining. If he had been training for a number of years in his friend's system and then was approached about a promotion, then it would have been appropriate to accept it.

 

[troubleenuf]

Goes back to the old saying "is it the belt that makes the person or the person who makes the belt?"

There is a big difference in my opinion on recieving a rank and earning a rank. To me recieving a rank because you believe you was passed up or forgotten about is not a good reason to recieve a rank like the USAT is doing. Many people may believe they deserve a rank but it is the instructor that needs to make that distrinction before you earn the rank.

I believe when you earn the rank though hard work and dedication is always the best policy. Please do not get these confuse with the people that never recieved there rank by instructors that have cheated them out of it. I also know that people that have ben giving rank in other arts just because of there name, what does that really mean getting something for doing nothing what does that say to all the people that have sweated and bleed for that same rank.

Ok I am off my soapbox and will what for the replies and go from there.

 

[Twin Fist]

rank is sort of silly.

more or less, there are times when it is important tho

for example, say you are a 2nd, and you have a student ready to test. In most systems, you cant promote someone to 1st if you are a 2nd, so it can matter.

if you respect YOUR instructor, and he promotes you, take it.

it's disrespectful not to.

some other person you have never studied with offers to promote you, it better be for a good reason. Like your instructor died or something.

in general, i dont sweat rank. Anything past Black belt is more often than not, not that important.

IMO

 

[IcemanSK]

One of the best ways I've heard it put was said by that same friend above. He says, "we have rank so we can get things done."

The longer I do this, the more sense it makes.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I'm of two minds on this.

I believe in earning you way at anything you do. To be given rank is, well, kind of cheep and has little meaning.

But.....

If you are very proficient in an art that is very simular to the one you are now studying, and it's ovious you are well above most in skill there, it is kind of hard to still be a very low gup yet outclass everyone there.

So it's up to both the student and the teacher. The teacher to offer the rank, and the student to decide if they feel they rate it or not.

Deaf

 

[Windsinger]

Ok I am off my soapbox and will what for the replies and go from there.

But I like it when you're on your soapbox, Terry. Whether or not I agree with you, you always give me something to think about.

In this case, I do agree with you. Being promoted "just because" just doesn't sit right with me. It's like passing a student in school because "failing would hurt his self-esteem". (My sister's a grade 3 teacher, and she considers that idea utter garbage.)

My sabum nim is great in this regard. If he doesn't think you've got what you need for your next level, you don't get it. The nice thing is, even with the higher belt levels (with whom he's, in his words, "not nearly so nice to"), he never really criticizes. He tells you what you did well on, and he tells you what you need to work on in such a way that you come away knowing that you can do it next time. Even when he fails a test, my son comes away with a smile on his face. So, when Mr. O promotes you, you know you've earned it.

This also bring to mind a dsicussion started by faerie2 back in August. Link Just saying...

 

[searcher]

Make me think of the saying, "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."

 

[Brad Dunne]

Ah!..........But teach a man to us a a fish as a weapon and you have a new Korean Martial Art..........Trout So Do......:bangahead:

Looking back at given histories of the arts, it seems that rank was often given.

 

[StuartA]

There is a big difference in my opinion on recieving a rank and earning a rank.

Agreed. All ranks should be based on what you have done, whether a formal grading or not. Sitting on your backside for X years is no reason to advance further IMO.

I believe when you earn the rank though hard work and dedication is always the best policy.

Of course.. without that it means nothing.

Good thoughts.

Stuart

 

[Kacey]

Rank should be earned, and then awarded; not presented for time in rank or because you paid the test fee. People fail - or it's not a test. At the same time, I won't let a student tests who is not capable of passing. There are no guarantees - but it's not fair to deliberately put a student in a no-win situation.

I've known a few people who changed organizations in order to test - I don't know who I think less of: the student who changed organizations in order to test, or the instructor who passed students s/he knew nothing about except that the students paid a (usually exorbitant) test fee.

 

[terryl965]

Rank should be earned, and then awarded; not presented for time in rank or because you paid the test fee. People fail - or it's not a test. At the same time, I won't let a student tests who is not capable of passing. There are no guarantees - but it's not fair to deliberately put a student in a no-win situation.

I've known a few people who changed organizations in order to test - I don't know who I think less of: the student who changed organizations in order to test, or the instructor who passed students s/he knew nothing about except that the students paid a (usually exorbitant) test fee.

I agree student that change school just to recieve a new rank I have no respect for at all.

 

[YoungMan]

Wheh I was attending college, the Taekwondo instructor of that institution offered me 3rd Dan if I joined his organization, despite the fact I was never a student of his and didn't wish to be. I refused to sell out my integrity (as he apparently had already done) simply to have a 3rd Dan that would be worthless anyway.
Yes, that really did happen.

 

[igillman]

I would rather wear a white belt but deserve a black belt than wear a black belt but deserve a white belt.

Many organisations seem to have a very broad non discrimination policy. They appear not to discriminate on all the usual grounds of race, creed, colour etc... but then they decide to go one further and not discriminate based upon ability.

 

[Yondanchris]

I believe in testing and earning rank, all my students do.

A few years a go I was faced with an interesting dilemma,
I was moving and my Dan Certificates where stolen out of the
moving truck.....major pain....

I called *association* and explaned the situation to be
told "you have to pay the $*,000 fee to recieve copies of your
Dan Certificates. I said heck no!!

A "freind" (read aquantance) of mine from my old dojo heard about
the incident and offered to send me Dan Certificates through his dojo.
It was nice to see somone willing to help me out..........

until, about a year later he was selling Dan Certificates online for $200.
so now the paper that is on the wall in my office means nothing!!

Interesting how somone who earned their rank gets cheated out of "official" recognition. Although I am currently training and getting ready
to re-test through 2 legitimate organizations to "re-earn" my dan certificates.

hope my story helps someone,

Chris

 

[irgordon]

My school doesn't believe in handing out rank, we aren't a McDojo. We have some students who have been training for over 8 months and haven't moved from Yellow Belt to Orange Belt, that is because we know they don't know the material, give no real effort and aren't ready to learn any new material.

We have only 5 black belts in my school despite having been open since 1998. We have a lot of advanced belts that drop off because, we make them work for everything they achieve so its meaningful and worthwhile, they know they worked very hard for what they got.

 

[Cirdan]

Daniel: Miyagi. Hey, what kind of belt do you have?
Miyagi: Canvas. J.C. Penney. $3.98. You like?

Rank stops being important after a while. Just train and wear whatever your Sensei deems appropriate in the Dojo.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Should rank be important? Is it important? These are questions I imagine a lot of people who spend more than a little time training ask themselves more than once.

I agree that earning rank is better than being given it, if by "given" you mean doing nothing for it. Even those systems or organizations that give out "honorary" dan ranks do so in recognition of what a non-practitioner has done for the organization, the system, or the wider society.

I can't really get on board with people when they say "Rank itself isn't important." First of all, people like Gichin Funakoshi, Jigoro Kano, Gen. Choi, Hwang Kee, Choi Yong Sul, etc. all adopted ranking systems for their martial arts. It's a bit insulting to them to decide to pick and choose what things you like and what you don't and still claim to study their system. If you don't like rank just don't issue it and call what you do your own sstyle of whatever system you teach.

Also, it's perhaps understandable to feel like one isn't worthy of the rank one receives but that is, in effect, second guessing one's instructor. If he doesn't have a good enough understanding of where you belong in relation to the ranking system of your martial art based on what he has seen of your technique then what are you doing studying at that school in the first place?

I'm not saying the ranking system isn't open to abuse. Of course it is. But pretty much everything is. Every organization has people who were promoted who don't deserve it; the military, corporations, schools, etc.

And is it me or do the majority of people who say that rank isn't important hold pretty high ranks themselves? If an 8th dan goes on about how unimportant rank is I might seriously ask why he bothered to acquire the rank he did. Why not just train and not promote? Why not just stay a white belt instead of reaching the upper eschelons of his system?

I'm not saying rank is the end all, be all by any means. But it's not meaningless either.

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

And is it me or do the majority of people who say that rank isn't important hold pretty high ranks themselves? If an 8th dan goes on about how unimportant rank is I might seriously ask why he bothered to acquire the rank he did. Why not just train and not promote? Why not just stay a white belt instead of reaching the upper eschelons of his system?

I'm not saying rank is the end all, be all by any means. But it's not meaningless either.

Martial arts rank is utterly unimportant. What should matter is knowledge and skill. However, many schools formally tie the transmission of knowledge into their ranking system, making the syllabus rigid, so material is not taught until a person has reached a certain threshold. In situations like those, it's not realistic to ask why doesn't someone just stay at a [low] rank.

Correct me if I am wrong, but that's the case with the ITF right? There is still material reserved for the ranks up to 7th dan, so there is indeed good incentive to hunger for higher levels.

Contrast that to the Okinawan karate system that I study and teach. At fourth dan (really at third) I have learned the entire body of material that my teacher wanted me to learn. Now it is just a matter of continuing to deepen my understanding of the material. I have no real desire to jump up in rank. It would have no real impact on my daily life and would be entirely ornamental to begin with.

Large organizations such as the KKW might have a real hierarchical need for ranks, if the rank corresponds to one's expected responsibilities.