Recent issues

[JR 137]

I'd never train at a place where teaching beyond a handful of classes is required. I understand the requirement for advancing to certain ranks, but I don't agree with it. I'm not talking about 7-10th dan ranks, as that's an entirely different animal than what we have here.

The way I look at it, I don't owe the dojo anything more than tuition. I participate in a lot of stuff such as dojo clean up, bringing food/snacks/beverages to social events, etc. I even have no problem helping teach a class if need be. But I'm under no obligation to do so. Especially regularly.

This is a big concern of yours. The only way it'll potentially get resolved favorably is a sit down with the CI/owner. You're not there to teach, you're there to train. There's a difference between helping out with teaching a class or if a lower rank asks for some pointers before or after class. It seems you're ok with that stuff, but you're not ok being the instructor for regularly scheduled classes.

I don't know the full situation, but I'd be pissed too. I'd talk to the CI privately and respectfully and voice my concerns. If he thought I owed it to him or the dojo, I'd leave. Unless of course it was explicitly made clear to me that it was a requirement from the beginning. Then I wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

I see this a lot in the local TKD schools. They make teaching a requirement for promoting, force the students to teach, and sit in an office while only teaching advanced classes. Yet all their advertising says you'll learn from some reknowned master. And the students aren't compensated nor receive any tuition reduction. Nonsense. That's not a shot at TKD as a whole, just a lot of the places around me. Some people love teaching, and I have no problem with that. It's the being taken advantage of part I have issues with.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So I got my black belt in kenpo last year and I was very happy with that but the problem is since then I've been asked to teach a lot...like almost every single lesson since. Now I don't mind helping out the odd time but frankly I'm not a teacher that's not why I turn up every class. I'm there to train plain and simple and I told my instructor this before I came back and he agreed I wouldn't have to. But my main problem is there are 4 other higher dan black belts than me there but they spend their time working with each other and training leaving me and another brown belt to teach the younger students. Like I said I'm not bitching about helping out and I'm happy to if there's ever bad numbers but literally every session I'm roped into it while the higher black belts workout together and frankly I'm paying for my classes so I'm really I'm paying to teach my instructor to teach his class....I will be having a word about it because it's just making it unenjoyable. I'm not a teacher I don't enjoy that aspect I'll do it if I must but quite honestly I feel like I'm being made a mug of.

I give my time to help teach two and sometimes three kids classes every Monday and Thursday prior to attending adult class as a student. Although there are times that I feel some of my kata are being neglected, the kata that I teach the kids has never been better. The kids make me perfect my kata because they imitate what they see, and if I'm phoning it in, it shows in their work.

I get motivation from their enthusiasm, and I feel good knowing that perhaps I am making a positive impact on their lives. I'll never be famous or rich or anything like that, but perhaps I can leave a small mark behind, leave something that matters to someone.

I also help to teach the adults in my adult class when they are new. There are higher rank black belts in my dojo, and sometimes they help also. But I seem to have a knack for explaining and demonstrating and I don't mind doing it. Again, I feel that it helps me to demonstrate a technique; I have to have it down cold or I can't pass it on to others.

Yes, I volunteer without pay to help. I also pay for my lessons. In fact, I pay more than the asked fee, not a lot but some. Because what I get out of my training is worth so much more than what I am paying.

Everyone is on a different path. Mine includes helping others in the dojo as I can. That makes me a better karateka, perhaps a better person, than I could become by just doing kata or punching a bag.

I don't see it as 'paying to attend a class'. This isn't college. It's not a restaurant where I pay for a meal and I want what I paid for. This is a transfer of knowledge from an expert who is grossly undercharging and freely giving his time to help me. I owe so much more than I give back, but I'm doing the best I can.

I recommend that you do your tasks with joy and enthusiasm, and look for the training that lurks within assisting others to learn your martial art. There is more opportunity there than you think. Perhaps your instructor knows that and is intentionally putting this in the path of your training.

 

[Headhunter]

He shouldn’t be paying to teach, if that’s what you mean.


If the higher grades help you when you are a lower grade, then you don’t; need to be Sherlock Holmes to work out when you become a higher grade it will become your turn. If you are not willing to accept that, leave and find another club. But don’t keep accepting that help until you get your black belt and THEN turn round and say you’re no going to help the lower grades. You knew the set up, you knew what would be expected of you, and you were happy to train there while it suited you.

When you are a lower grade the higher grades help you out. Hence, when you become a higher grade it becomes your turn to help the lower grades. To give something back to the system that has helped you, in order that it can continue. Also, teaching helps you understand the techniques better, as you think about them more when you have to explain them to others, this furthers your own understating and helps you become a better martial artists.


Yes, that would be nice in the fantasy world where every club can afford to pay all its black belts a salary because the club is earning enough money to do so. It would also be nice I was taller, richer and married to Scarlett Johansson. Unfortunately the real world doesn’t work like that. :-(

I already made it clear that I had 0 intention to teach and that was accepted and anyway I don't owe anyone there anything. That's my problem with traditional martial arts they act like owe them something. Well no I dont owe anyone a thing i paid for my lessons its not like i got them for free the other instructors chose to teach it was their choice to do it I gave them my money to do it. They made an agreement that I wouldn't teach and I already went back on it to be helpful. I've already given back to the system. I've given back god knows much money so the club can stay open.

There's to much cult like attitude in martial arts where I'm supposed to be forever in debt to my instructor because he did the job he was paid to do. People are expected to kiss there instructors feet and jump on command. Not just at my place but I've seen it at loads of places. My instructor is simply that an instructor he's not my boss or my god. My art is just a hobby it's not a life long thing people should be able to come and go as they please and not feel they have to do something they don't want. That's one of the reasons I walked away from the style in the first place and if I have to I'll do so again I've got plenty of other options of places to train.

 

[Headhunter]

I give my time to help teach two and sometimes three kids classes every Monday and Thursday prior to attending adult class as a student. Although there are times that I feel some of my kata are being neglected, the kata that I teach the kids has never been better. The kids make me perfect my kata because they imitate what they see, and if I'm phoning it in, it shows in their work.

I get motivation from their enthusiasm, and I feel good knowing that perhaps I am making a positive impact on their lives. I'll never be famous or rich or anything like that, but perhaps I can leave a small mark behind, leave something that matters to someone.

I also help to teach the adults in my adult class when they are new. There are higher rank black belts in my dojo, and sometimes they help also. But I seem to have a knack for explaining and demonstrating and I don't mind doing it. Again, I feel that it helps me to demonstrate a technique; I have to have it down cold or I can't pass it on to others.

Yes, I volunteer without pay to help. I also pay for my lessons. In fact, I pay more than the asked fee, not a lot but some. Because what I get out of my training is worth so much more than what I am paying.

Everyone is on a different path. Mine includes helping others in the dojo as I can. That makes me a better karateka, perhaps a better person, than I could become by just doing kata or punching a bag.

I don't see it as 'paying to attend a class'. This isn't college. It's not a restaurant where I pay for a meal and I want what I paid for. This is a transfer of knowledge from an expert who is grossly undercharging and freely giving his time to help me. I owe so much more than I give back, but I'm doing the best I can.

I recommend that you do your tasks with joy and enthusiasm, and look for the training that lurks within assisting others to learn your martial art. There is more opportunity there than you think. Perhaps your instructor knows that and is intentionally putting this in the path of your training.

Well that's just nonsense. You like to do it good for you I don't so I shouldn't be made to. I haven't got that much money as it is and I don't want to be spending it teaching someone's else's club. That's the thing though they're not /freely/ giving there time they're making money out of it.

 

[Headhunter]

I'd never train at a place where teaching beyond a handful of classes is required. I understand the requirement for advancing to certain ranks, but I don't agree with it. I'm not talking about 7-10th dan ranks, as that's an entirely different animal than what we have here.

The way I look at it, I don't owe the dojo anything more than tuition. I participate in a lot of stuff such as dojo clean up, bringing food/snacks/beverages to social events, etc. I even have no problem helping teach a class if need be. But I'm under no obligation to do so. Especially regularly.

This is a big concern of yours. The only way it'll potentially get resolved favorably is a sit down with the CI/owner. You're not there to teach, you're there to train. There's a difference between helping out with teaching a class or if a lower rank asks for some pointers before or after class. It seems you're ok with that stuff, but you're not ok being the instructor for regularly scheduled classes.

I don't know the full situation, but I'd be pissed too. I'd talk to the CI privately and respectfully and voice my concerns. If he thought I owed it to him or the dojo, I'd leave. Unless of course it was explicitly made clear to me that it was a requirement from the beginning. Then I wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

I see this a lot in the local TKD schools. They make teaching a requirement for promoting, force the students to teach, and sit in an office while only teaching advanced classes. Yet all their advertising says you'll learn from some reknowned master. And the students aren't compensated nor receive any tuition reduction. Nonsense. That's not a shot at TKD as a whole, just a lot of the places around me. Some people love teaching, and I have no problem with that. It's the being taken advantage of part I have issues with.

Absolutely correct. I have 0 issues helping out time to time I get stuff happens but I'm not a teacher I get nothing from teaching. I don't need to give anything back to anyone. Thing is it's not even a requirement for promotion and I have no desire for promotion anyway. I'm happy to stay where I am for the rest of my life. It's a bit of fabric it really means very little to me.

Another issue is there's some higher belts who don't teach ever. Like there's a 5th dan who's never taught one class. He never even teaches 1 student like ever. He always goes to the back and trains by himself or takes part but never teaches and he never pays either. So to me why is this guy who's much higher not expected to teach but I am and I'm paying and he's not.

Everyone saying oh ill get so much better because I have to analyse my stuff....well I do that anyway Im always breaking down my movements and focusing on small details on my own.

Like you say some people like to teach some dont. Those who like it good on them but those who don't shouldn't be pressured to

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Well that's just nonsense. You like to do it good for you I don't so I shouldn't be made to.

No one makes you do anything. You're free to leave, aren't you? Shake the dust from your sandals then.

I haven't got that much money as it is and I don't want to be spending it teaching someone's else's club.

The point I was trying to make is that you may find some wonderful learning opportunities by teaching. Let him who has eyes see.

That's the thing though they're not /freely/ giving there time they're making money out of it.

So it's not about martial arts for you, it's about money. I get it. Best of luck to you.

 

[EddieCyrax]

Something to consider.... I too recently was awarded my Black Belt in Kempo. I am still a paying student, but instruct on occasion. For this I have worked out a deal with the owner to allow me access to the school anytime I want in off hours and to invite a few friends/black belts from another school (same style Kempo) to train with.

 

[jobo]

I already made it clear that I had 0 intention to teach and that was accepted and anyway I don't owe anyone there anything. That's my problem with traditional martial arts they act like owe them something. Well no I dont owe anyone a thing i paid for my lessons its not like i got them for free the other instructors chose to teach it was their choice to do it I gave them my money to do it. They made an agreement that I wouldn't teach and I already went back on it to be helpful. I've already given back to the system. I've given back god knows much money so the club can stay open.

There's to much cult like attitude in martial arts where I'm supposed to be forever in debt to my instructor because he did the job he was paid to do. People are expected to kiss there instructors feet and jump on command. Not just at my place but I've seen it at loads of places. My instructor is simply that an instructor he's not my boss or my god. My art is just a hobby it's not a life long thing people should be able to come and go as they please and not feel they have to do something they don't want. That's one of the reasons I walked away from the style in the first place and if I have to I'll do so again I've got plenty of other options of places to train.

well you seem to have made a decision, so its your instructor you should be having the conversation with.

I can see both sides of the argument. It is first and foremost a business relationship and you are not forever in their debt, no more than if you were asked to give unpaid driving tuition by your driving instructor or guitar lessons by your music teacher

but on the otherhand, its a position of trust that will help you with your own development. You never fully understand anything till you try to teach others

I'm not sure about the cult thing, there is probably as bit of that around, but I see it as more extended family were you look to give back to a thing that has given you benefits. I get the impression that the,school isn't making much money, so he is not really exploiting you for gain, just losing a little less money because of your help. In time youl be one of the top black belts getting his attention and someone else will be teaching the newbies. Id see it more as a right of passage.

but if you really don't want to do it. Then put your foot down and tell him in no uncertain terms

 

[Headhunter]

No one makes you do anything. You're free to leave, aren't you? Shake the dust from your sandals then.



The point I was trying to make is that you may find some wonderful learning opportunities by teaching. Let him who has eyes see.



So it's not about martial arts for you, it's about money. I get it. Best of luck to you.

Um yeah it is about money. Money is way more important than a karate class.

 

[Steve]

I can see helping out when you have a stake in the school. If it's a very small, non-profit or something like that, where your contribution helps keep the lights on and the school running, I get that. It's more of a club in this sense, and in a club, everyone does their part.

If the school is a business, then it needs to be run like a business. And if students are expected to teach, it needs to be an across the board, well documented expectation.

In this thread and in the other thread where headhunter was getting harassed by a parent, a pretty clear picture of this instructor is being painted.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Although there are times that I feel some of my kata are being neglected, the kata that I teach the kids has never been better. The kids make me perfect my kata because they imitate what they see, and if I'm phoning it in, it shows in their work.

This is always the case. I know my advanced forms have been neglected but that beginner Kung Fu Form is almost flawless. lol.

The downside to teaching is that it does affect training time for the advanced forms or kata practice. The upside to this is that it really creates a high understanding of the basics. Some of my advanced forms are better because I have a deeper understanding of the basics than I did before I started teaching. My school may be a little more flexible than most. If needed it I can tell beginners to practice a form multiple times and then I can do my own training while they do their own. For example, I may tell a student to do a form 5 times (if they know the entire form). Once I see the student finish, then I'll make the student to do the form again so that I can review. From there, I either make corrections or have the student to train the next form.

I have 2 "private" training days and students who attend those days usually progress in their forms faster than they would during the normal classes. I also get a lot of training on my earlier forms on those days as well as I do the forms with the student. I only feel like I'm missing out on training when I have to stop and watch for long periods of time. Other than that training is training regardless of if I'm doing advanced forms or beginner forms. To be honest the school wouldn't survive if the senior students didn't help to teach.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't see it as 'paying to attend a class'. This isn't college. It's not a restaurant where I pay for a meal and I want what I paid for. This is a transfer of knowledge from an expert who is grossly undercharging and freely giving his time to help me. I owe so much more than I give back, but I'm doing the best I can.

This is also me as well. Jow Ga schools are like a family environment and not school type environment. Payment is viewed as money that supports the school and it's activities. If students train hard and give their best then that dedication will be rewarded. There was a time when I was financially having trouble paying and my Sifu really helped me out and was flexible with the amount I had to pay each month. He saw that I had a passion for Jow Ga Kung Fu and he allowed me to stay, where most schools would have prevented me from training because I could no longer afford it. His decision to do so was the right decision because I played a critical role in helping the school to stay open. I'm also able to show Jow Ga in a good light in terms of sparring and actually using the techniques. Even though I've done a lot, I still feel the need to do what I can to repay the kindness that my Sifu showed me. I have a passion for Jow Ga Kung Fu. My Sifu wants to have a successful school so I don't think I'll fully feel as if I've paid him back for his kindness until I can get the school to be a 30 to 40 student enrollment with at least 3 lions dance teams and 10 strong Jow Ga fighters. I'm not the only one that feels this way. Other students see that we care so they care and we do what we can to help support the school and each other. Some of the students literally grow up with us.

 

[JR 137]

I can see helping out when you have a stake in the school. If it's a very small, non-profit or something like that, where your contribution helps keep the lights on and the school running, I get that. It's more of a club in this sense, and in a club, everyone does their part.

If the school is a business, then it needs to be run like a business. And if students are expected to teach, it needs to be an across the board, well documented expectation.

In this thread and in the other thread where headhunter was getting harassed by a parent, a pretty clear picture of this instructor is being painted.

The school I attend fits what you're saying. We have about 40 or so students. A senior student and I were estimatingly adding up tuition, and subtracting rent, utilities, etc. We were talking about how it's basically a non-profit place. I think my CI and his wife (co-owners) make enough to cover expenses, travel to NYC regularly for training, and maybe a small vacation every year. The other thought it was break even and maybe half the NYC stuff. We're 2.5 hours drive away from NYC.

We all help out whenever needed and however needed. My CI was redoing the floor last summer - strip, sand, re-varnish, etc. At least half the adults offered to help. Not out of obligation, but because we genuinely love the place. Everyone shows up for dojo cleaning (4 times a year). Even parents who don't train show up and help.

When my CI is out of town (he's retired from his full-time career and takes 2-3 weeks every year), the senior students volunteer to teach class.

None of this - and more - is an obligation. We're less than half the price everyone else in the area is. We're a small and very tight knit club. We do these things because we want to keep the place going and we enjoy each others' company. We know we're not made to do anything just so we can line some "master's" pockets with money.

Places like that are rare. If I was paying what a lot of the places in my area charge and then he expected to do stuff like that, I'd leave.

Edit: I had Lyme Disease several months ago, and couldn't train for about 2 months. When I stopped in to watch and say hi, I gave my CI the money for that month's tuition. Both months I wasn't there. He told me I didn't have to pay because I wasn't training. I gave him the money anyway, saying "I'm still a part of the dojo, and I want to support the club." He respectfully and appreciatively took the money.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I already made it clear that I had 0 intention to teach and that was accepted and anyway I don't owe anyone there anything. That's my problem with traditional martial arts they act like owe them something. Well no I dont owe anyone a thing i paid for my lessons its not like i got them for free the other instructors chose to teach it was their choice to do it I gave them my money to do it. They made an agreement that I wouldn't teach and I already went back on it to be helpful. I've already given back to the system. I've given back god knows much money so the club can stay open.

There's to much cult like attitude in martial arts where I'm supposed to be forever in debt to my instructor because he did the job he was paid to do. People are expected to kiss there instructors feet and jump on command. Not just at my place but I've seen it at loads of places. My instructor is simply that an instructor he's not my boss or my god. My art is just a hobby it's not a life long thing people should be able to come and go as they please and not feel they have to do something they don't want. That's one of the reasons I walked away from the style in the first place and if I have to I'll do so again I've got plenty of other options of places to train.

You should really change schools. If you don't feel a deeper connection with the school and those that you train with, then it's not a good place for you. The fact that you feel as if you are being taken advantage speaks to the truth that I'm saying.

What you see as a "cult attitude" is called brotherhood. Here's what a non-traditional martial arts school that my brother trains at. If you were to walk in there, they are like a family unity and not like paying students who only cares about themselves. They follow their core values.
Crazy88's Core Values (source)
Our Core Values
1. Dedicate yourself to the team and teammates.
2. Pursue never-ending improvement.
3. Respect the foundation of what you learn and teach.
4. Do the right thing (even when no one is looking).
5. Make smart decisions based on a plan and reality.
6. Build a sustainable foundation (NO SHORTCUTS).

Dedicate yourself to the team and teammates.
Be a person that others look up to and can rely on. Treat the team’s goals as your own. Help your teammates develop their potential and become successful!

 

[Headhunter]

You should really change schools. If you don't feel a deeper connection with the school and those that you train with, then it's not a good place for you. The fact that you feel as if you are being taken advantage speaks to the truth that I'm saying.

What you see as a "cult attitude" is called brotherhood. Here's what a non-traditional martial arts school that my brother trains at. If you were to walk in there, they are like a family unity and not like paying students who only cares about themselves. They follow their core values.
Crazy88's Core Values (source)
Our Core Values
1. Dedicate yourself to the team and teammates.
2. Pursue never-ending improvement.
3. Respect the foundation of what you learn and teach.
4. Do the right thing (even when no one is looking).
5. Make smart decisions based on a plan and reality.
6. Build a sustainable foundation (NO SHORTCUTS).

Dedicate yourself to the team and teammates.
Be a person that others look up to and can rely on. Treat the team’s goals as your own. Help your teammates develop their potential and become successful!

I've never felt that way in any place because simply they're not my family. They're friends who I get on with but they're not family I've got my family and I've got my friends they're 2 seperate things. I see them a couple times a week have a laugh train then go home that's friends not family

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've never felt that way in any place because simply they're not my family. They're friends who I get on with but they're not family I've got my family and I've got my friends they're 2 seperate things. I see them a couple times a week have a laugh train then go home that's friends not family

This is why you feel the way you do, and there's nothing wrong with feeling that way. If you only see them as associates or friends then you aren't going to put in the extra work, simply because it does not have that level of relationship bonding.

Not everyone has that level of bonding with the school they train in. I know there are students at my school that don't have that type of relationship with us and they don't train with us anymore. We still talk to them, but for them it was just a class. Which is cool.

If you don't want to teach, then let them know that you don't want to teach. If you don't like the environment, then find somewhere else to train, because I don't expect that they will change on this issue any more than you will change.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Um yeah it is about money. Money is way more important than a karate class.

Blasphemer!!! Burn the Martial Arts Heretic. LOL. Just kidding and only said this because of your cult statement. How much do you pay for your classes?

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I was paying what a lot of the places in my area charge and then he expected to do stuff like that, I'd leave.

This is how I feel too. If I'm paying a lot of money for Martial arts then I would be less willing to pull the "extra mile" I originally paid $300 for Me and my son to take Jow Ga kung fu and a Tai chi class for me. Some schools will charge that much and more just for one student. It's difficult to feel a family bond when someone is taking a huge chunk of money out of you each month.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Let me see some of your kenpo, then I will tell you what you should do.

 

[Paul_D]

I already made it clear that I had 0 intention to teach and that was accepted and anyway I don't owe anyone there anything. That's my problem with traditional martial arts they act like owe them something. Well no I dont owe anyone a thing i paid for my lessons its not like i got them for free the other instructors chose to teach it was their choice to do it I gave them my money to do it. They made an agreement that I wouldn't teach and I already went back on it to be helpful. I've already given back to the system. I've given back god knows much money so the club can stay open.

There's to much cult like attitude in martial arts where I'm supposed to be forever in debt to my instructor because he did the job he was paid to do. People are expected to kiss there instructors feet and jump on command. Not just at my place but I've seen it at loads of places. My instructor is simply that an instructor he's not my boss or my god. My art is just a hobby it's not a life long thing people should be able to come and go as they please and not feel they have to do something they don't want. That's one of the reasons I walked away from the style in the first place and if I have to I'll do so again I've got plenty of other options of places to train.

So you only wanted people to reply to your thread if they agreed with you.

Understood.